Smarter ticket barriers : good news or bad?

[radamfi]

We shouldn't really be in the business of excessing return portions given today's technology. Much better to refund the ticket with no admin charge and allow the passenger to get a new ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We shouldn't really be in the business of excessing return portions given today's technology. Much better to refund the ticket with no admin charge and allow the passenger to get a new ticket.

Totally agreed. And many excesses would be unnecessary, anyway, as you would simply buy single tickets via the desired route once you had decided which way and on what day to go.

 

[MikeWM]

I was on London in a paper travelcard yesterday and it would be good if all gates at a gateline would accept tickets (let you put them in at all) not just oyster!

Agreed. This has got much worse recently in my experience (lack of maintenance budget, or just not caring?) and it is a right pain, especially at busy gatelines with loads of people behind you. At the very least clearly mark which are ‘broken’ in a way that can be seen from behind a large crowd of people so you know where not to aim for...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. This has got much worse recently in my experience (lack of maintenance budget, or just not caring?) and it is a right pain, especially at busy gatelines with loads of people behind you. At the very least clearly mark which are ‘broken’ in a way that can be seen from behind a large crowd of people so you know where not to aim for...

I reckon it would be easy to justify these days removing all the magstripe barriers from LU stations that are not cross-London transfer ones and having outboundary Travelcard users collect a free single-use (or deposit-based) Oyster style gate pass. The cost of maintaining all the working parts must be immense compared with solid state Oyster pads. I'd be interested to see if use of outboundary Travelcards is reducing with Oyster and contactless becoming more popular? Certainly these days I only get a Travelcard if I'm going to be making more than two single Tube or bus journeys.

 

[MikeWM]

But where do you draw the line? If you don’t have cheaper LM only fares then wveryone will pile on the Virgin Trains. I do agree that VT only fares could go from Milton Keynes.

The GA-only fares from Cambridge add a level of complexity but also allow me to save money . So I don’t like the idea of getting rid of them, no. It is one of the very few examples of rail privatisation working in the way it was originally sold to us.

 

[MikeWM]

I reckon it would be easy to justify these days removing all the magstripe barriers from LU stations that are not cross-London transfer ones and having outboundary Travelcard users collect a free single-use (or deposit-based) Oyster style gate pass. The cost of maintaining all the working parts must be immense compared with solid state Oyster pads. I'd be interested to see if use of outboundary Travelcards is reducing with Oyster and contactless becoming more popular?

I still see a lot of paper tickets being used around London, not just at the obvious transfer stations. Trying to move everyone to any sort of card solution seems rather overkill to me.

 

[A Challenge]

Agreed. This has got much worse recently in my experience (lack of maintenance budget, or just not caring?) and it is a right pain, especially at busy gatelines with loads of people behind you. At the very least clearly mark which are ‘broken’ in a way that can be seen from behind a large crowd of people so you know where not to aim for...

I ended up having to push in front of the person who would have been next throgh the next barrier along just to have a chance of getting through without us getting split up!

This was Piccadilly Circus (entry) just after 22:00 yesterday on the way back to Waterloo, so it was very busy with NYE people and the theatres tipping out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The GA-only fares from Cambridge add a level of complexity but also allow me to save money . So I don’t like the idea of getting rid of them, no. It is one of the very few examples of rail privatisation working in the way it was originally sold to us.

Looking at the MKC example, both VT and LNR have their own fares which are a few pence apart. Therefore the "fix" is to set the Any Permitted fare to the average of the two plus the losses from the smaller number of people who would buy the Any Permitted ticket, then bin the TOC specific fares and apportion revenue based on what people actually do. The two TOCs have a broadly equivalent off-peak offer from MKC so there's little to say which is "better" and therefore meriting being pricier - LNR is slower, but VT have a far less frequent service which southbound is crammed into about a 15 minute period.

I could see an argument for "route Northampton" and "route Princes Risborough"[1] fares for London to Birmingham as a means of appealing to different markets, though, without making things hugely complex, though these fares should have the same ticket types and restrictions as the Any Permitted ones and only differ in the price. A few enthusiasts might do that with two changes to maximise VT use, but due to a general preference for direct trains that isn't likely to be done in droves except during disruption.

[1] See another thread as to why "Route High Wycombe" is silly - or as a summary, those tickets are also valid via a route which does not pass through High Wycombe, which is another piece of pointlessly stupid complexity which would make the subject of the thread needlessly difficult to achieve.

 

[sheff1]

To answer the question posed:

Good if the smarter barriers are 100 % accurate.

Bad if they are, say, 98% accurate unless, at the same time, the TOCs make sure that ALL staff manning barriers understand that the system is not 100% accurate and hence a ticket being rejected does not make it invalid. A good start would be at Coventry where, according to the dimwit I encountered at the weekend, a Burton on Trent to Bedworth ticket is not valid because the barrier said so .

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

To answer the question posed:

Good if the smarter barriers are 100 % accurate.

Bad if they are, say, 98% accurate unless, at the same time, the TOCs make sure that ALL staff manning barriers understand that the system is not 100% accurate and hence a ticket being rejected does not make it invalid. A good start would be at Coventry where, according to the dimwit I encountered at the weekend, a Burton on Trent to Bedworth ticket is not valid because the barrier said so .

One member of barrier staff at Coventry recently said I had to have a ticket to or from Coventry. Hmm...

 

[MikeWM]

Looking at the MKC example, both VT and LNR have their own fares which are a few pence apart. Therefore the "fix" is to set the Any Permitted fare to the average of the two plus the losses from the smaller number of people who would buy the Any Permitted ticket, then bin the TOC specific fares and apportion revenue based on what people actually do. The two TOCs have a broadly equivalent off-peak offer from MKC so there's little to say which is "better" and therefore meriting being pricier - LNR is slower, but VT have a far less frequent service which southbound is crammed into about a 15 minute period.

Yes, in that case it does seem rather silly and confusing. But in other cases - Cambridge to London being a good example - the price difference is significant (in exchange for a time penalty).

I could see an argument for "route Northampton" and "route Princes Risborough"[1] fares for London to Birmingham as a means of appealing to different markets, though, without making things hugely complex, though these fares should have the same ticket types and restrictions as the Any Permitted ones and only differ in the price. A few enthusiasts might do that with two changes to maximise VT use, but due to a general preference for direct trains that isn't likely to be done in droves except during disruption.

And this is another good example, yes. I've done London to Birmingham on route High Wycombe tickets a few times in the last couple of years because they are quite a bit cheaper than VT and time wasn't of the essence.

 

[Hadders]

I reckon it would be easy to justify these days removing all the magstripe barriers from LU stations that are not cross-London transfer ones and having outboundary Travelcard users collect a free single-use (or deposit-based) Oyster style gate pass. The cost of maintaining all the working parts must be immense compared with solid state Oyster pads. I'd be interested to see if use of outboundary Travelcards is reducing with Oyster and contactless becoming more popular? Certainly these days I only get a Travelcard if I'm going to be making more than two single Tube or bus journeys.

Have you seen how busy weekend trains from places like Cambridge and Peterborough to London are - most of the punters are using paper travelcards. I wouldn't fancy queuing up to get a gate pass for the Underground. It's already enough hassle getting through the barriers at Kings Cross Underground station when using a London Terminals ticket to Moorgate....

 

[Mag_seven]

One member of barrier staff at Coventry recently said I had to have a ticket to or from Coventry. Hmm...

Given that the ability to break your journey (a situation where you might not actually have a ticket to/from Coventry) is one of the most basic features of most types of tickets it beggars belief that some gateline staff still struggle with this concept! Someone had a problem a breaking a journey at Reading recently due to such ignorance.

 

[35B]

I reckon it would be easy to justify these days removing all the magstripe barriers from LU stations that are not cross-London transfer ones and having outboundary Travelcard users collect a free single-use (or deposit-based) Oyster style gate pass. The cost of maintaining all the working parts must be immense compared with solid state Oyster pads. I'd be interested to see if use of outboundary Travelcards is reducing with Oyster and contactless becoming more popular? Certainly these days I only get a Travelcard if I'm going to be making more than two single Tube or bus journeys.

Then you need to get all operators to issue tickets in Oyster compatible format. I have an Oyster, I use contactless, but my season only comes in magstripe format so I have to use that format. Ditto any other ticket type that involves London. And it is intensely frustrating having paid a small fortune for my ticket to find that I can’t use the barrier I’ve approached in good faith - whether mainline or Underground - because it won’t take tickets. The approach must then be to provide the Oyster to the ticket holder at the point of purchase - not make them collect one, let alone for a deposit. That should include encoding existing Oysters.

As for swapping to a London Terminals ticket and then using contactless, why? On my ticket, the difference in fare is pretty precisely the cost of a Zone 1 return at Oyster rates; but the season gives me the perk of free travel within the zones on top of my work journey.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Then you need to get all operators to issue tickets in Oyster compatible format. I have an Oyster, I use contactless, but my season only comes in magstripe format so I have to use that format. Ditto any other ticket type that involves London. And it is intensely frustrating having paid a small fortune for my ticket to find that I can’t use the barrier I’ve approached in good faith - whether mainline or Underground - because it won’t take tickets. The approach must then be to provide the Oyster to the ticket holder at the point of purchase - not make them collect one, let alone for a deposit. That should include encoding existing Oysters.

As for swapping to a London Terminals ticket and then using contactless, why? On my ticket, the difference in fare is pretty precisely the cost of a Zone 1 return at Oyster rates; but the season gives me the perk of free travel within the zones on top of my work journey.

ITSO seasons are a lot closer than you think.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To answer the question posed:

Good if the smarter barriers are 100 % accurate.

Bad if they are, say, 98% accurate unless, at the same time, the TOCs make sure that ALL staff manning barriers understand that the system is not 100% accurate and hence a ticket being rejected does not make it invalid. A good start would be at Coventry where, according to the dimwit I encountered at the weekend, a Burton on Trent to Bedworth ticket is not valid because the barrier said so .

Better might be that they can clearly say "yes, no or not sure", possibly on a traffic light system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for swapping to a London Terminals ticket and then using contactless, why? On my ticket, the difference in fare is pretty precisely the cost of a Zone 1 return at Oyster rates; but the season gives me the perk of free travel within the zones on top of my work journey.

Because the add-on varies - it is sometimes quite a bit more than that. And if you're definitely only doing *bus* journeys it's almost always more.

 

[35B]

Because the add-on varies - it is sometimes quite a bit more than that. And if you're definitely only doing *bus* journeys it's almost always more.

Ok - but that reinforces my point. For those customers who benefit from the add on, why would they want to be put through extra hassle to get the card option?

ITSO seasons are a lot closer than you think.

How much? And will they be compatible with Oyster readers?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ok - but that reinforces my point. For those customers who benefit from the add on, why would they want to be put through extra hassle to get the card option?

They clearly wouldn't *want* to, but why should the London Council taxpayer pay to maintain all those magstripe readers when they exclusively benefit people who do not live in London?

You could load the cost onto those tickets, but then they'd be poor value compared with just using Oyster/contactless as by definition they'd have to cost more.

 

[35B]

They clearly wouldn't *want* to, but why should the London Council taxpayer pay to maintain all those magstripe readers when they exclusively benefit people who do not live in London?

You could load the cost onto those tickets, but then they'd be poor value compared with just using Oyster/contactless as by definition they'd have to cost more.

Because those passengers benefit London by being employed in, or contributing towards employment in, greater London - and hence the ability of the London boroughs to levy and be paid local taxes? Or because it will help in queue management at busy stations by avoiding people like me having to ask to be let through manually?

You also avoid the main implication of my question. If I travel to London, I buy from LNER. I don't care whether it is LNER or TfL who provide me with the Oyster access. What I expect is that the vendor provides me with a ticket that will work at all inspection points on my journey, and that any inter company settlements can be invisible to me.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Ok - but that reinforces my point. For those customers who benefit from the add on, why would they want to be put through extra hassle to get the card option?

How much? And will they be compatible with Oyster readers?

Seasons are available now for some flows and yes they will be

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seasons are available now for some flows and yes they will be

I believe Abellio are abolishing non-smartcard seasons soon. And if it gets to the point where the magstripe readers are used only for outboundary *day* Travelcards, the case for those continuing to exist is low.

 

[bobblebob]

The ticket barriers at Dewsbury station make me laugh. Recently (well within the last year) been installed, yet you can just go through the pub and get onto the station to avoid the barriers. So anyone wanting to fair dodgy can quite easily do so.

Paying a ticket person to man the barriers, yet the people who they're designed to catch will just enter/exit through the pub to avoid them. Seen loads do it

 

[A Challenge]

Couldn't they check tickets on the rail side entrance to the pub (though it isn't BOJ so they'd have to check manually)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ticket barriers at Dewsbury station make me laugh. Recently (well within the last year) been installed, yet you can just go through the pub and get onto the station to avoid the barriers. So anyone wanting to fair dodgy can quite easily do so.

Paying a ticket person to man the barriers, yet the people who they're designed to catch will just enter/exit through the pub to avoid them. Seen loads do it

West Brompton is similarly silly. There are barriers on the Tube side but a very easy and obvious way round them.

 

[bobblebob]

Couldn't they check tickets on the rail side entrance to the pub (though it isn't BOJ so they'd have to check manually)?

Guess they could but never do. They only check at the entrance to the platform which csn easily be avoided

 

[MikeWh]

I believe Abellio are abolishing non-smartcard seasons soon. And if it gets to the point where the magstripe readers are used only for outboundary *day* Travelcards, the case for those continuing to exist is low.

Having stood waiting in the ticket office at Crayford (z6) on many occasions hearing people ask for day travelcards, I can assure you that they aren't *only* used for outboundary tickets.

 

[Starmill]

ITSO seasons are a lot closer than you think.

Yeah. Southern have only been issuing seasons on ITSO (including Travelcard Season) for what... four years?

Edit: actually it's more like 6 years. The trial on the Seaford branch was in 2010, with rollout from 2012 onwards.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Just about every TOC has them now if you know where to look.

 

[cuccir]

An issue with smart barriers that I've found is that the QR Codes printed on many tickets or displayed on many devices are not of great quality. They take time to scan and often won't scan. Anecdotally, I've found queue times to have increased at barriers over the last 2 years as more and more people arrive with QR Codes than with card tickets. Particularly bad offenders are QR codes on those papery tickets issued by guards on Northern and TPE trains.