Some TOCs are refusing to pay Delay Repay if the timetable has changed since booking

[ForTheLoveOf]

Additional £29.95 claim for SWR. This brings my total for SWR to £71.10.

Reason stated is 'invalid claim'.

Oh dear. £71.10 is certainly an amount I would be chasing up legally. If you reach "deadlock" with SWR, send a Letter Before Action as the first step.

 

[BigCj34]

Just tweeted Greater Anglia, on an advance journey I booked that has subsequently announced rail replacement buses on part of the journey. They replied that I would be eligible for Delay Repay if I get the next available service after 10.30, when I originally booked, as I would arrive an hour after intended. If I decide to leave an hour earlier to arrive at the intended time, presumably I won't be eligible for anything?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Just tweeted Greater Anglia, on an advance journey I booked that has subsequently announced rail replacement buses on part of the journey. They replied that I would be eligible for Delay Repay if I get the next available service after 10.30, when I originally booked, as I would arrive an hour after intended. If I decide to leave an hour earlier to arrive at the intended time, presumably I won't be eligible for anything?

Unfortunately, there is no established mechanism for receiving compensation if you have to leave earlier to arrive at the originally scheduled time. I think it's clear that, from a customer service point of view (and potentially from a consumer law avenue) the same kind of compensation should be payable as the same kind of delay in reverse, but ultimately that would be an uphill struggle with many TOCs. Worth a try perhaps, but I would not bank on receiving anything

 

[superalbs]

Just spotted this on page nine of the TFW passenger charter...

Delay Repay – emergency timetable
If we introduce an emergency timetable and full
details are on our website the day before, entitlement
to ‘Delay Repay’ compensation will normally be
measured against the revised timetable.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Just spotted this on page nine of the TFW passenger charter...

That is simply not compatible with the rights granted under the NRCoT, let alone the general principles of contract law or the principles of consumer law. They can't change the timetable after you have booked - or rather, if they do, it has no contractual effect on any booking you have already made.

Delay compensation is not a matter of goodwill anymore. It is a legally enforceable right and TOCs should not attempt to wriggle out of paying what is owed.

 

[robbeech]

So, on Saturday Northern left a random Leeds to Lincoln service in the ‘system’ due to arrive at 1607 to Worksop. When asked they admitted an error had occurred but stated that the only error was this service was a bus and not a train. Needless to say, no bus turned up at Worksop at 1607. When they then said that there was a bus at 1635 that was randomly placed and not in the timetables I found it rather odd. The next service was the 1725 bus (which was late) and this was then too late for me to be able to get back again so I did not make the journey.
Apparently no refund is due because no service exists at that time.
How folly of them to try that.

 

[najaB]

Delay compensation is not a matter of goodwill anymore. It is a legally enforceable right and TOCs should not attempt to wriggle out of paying what is owed.

Delay compensation is, the higher levels of compensation provided under Delay Repay schemes vs the NRCoT is not.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Delay compensation is, the higher levels of compensation provided under Delay Repay schemes vs the NRCoT is not.

This is not true. The NRCoT makes clear that the Passenger's Charter sets out the level of compensation payable, and that all the NRCoT sets out is the minimum you will be guaranteed across all TOCs. It would be very unwise for a TOC to try and claim that delay compensation above the NRCoT minima is discretionary... there is simply no such case to be made, given that the Passenger's Charters guarantee it and don't just say they will 'consider' it (in the same way that compensation for sustained poor performance may be 'considered' for season ticket holders under several TOCs' policies). I've never heard of any TOC trying to get out on this basis.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

So, on Saturday Northern left a random Leeds to Lincoln service in the ‘system’ due to arrive at 1607 to Worksop. When asked they admitted an error had occurred but stated that the only error was this service was a bus and not a train. Needless to say, no bus turned up at Worksop at 1607. When they then said that there was a bus at 1635 that was randomly placed and not in the timetables I found it rather odd. The next service was the 1725 bus (which was late) and this was then too late for me to be able to get back again so I did not make the journey.
Apparently no refund is due because no service exists at that time.
How folly of them to try that.

When had you bought your ticket?

 

[robbeech]

That day. Using a retailer that was showing the 1607 as running at that point. (northern). Though I could have purchased it anywhere as it was still in the timetable.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That day. Using a retailer that was showing the 1607 as running at that point. (northern). Though I could have purchased it anywhere as it was still in the timetable.

Well, do you plan to take the matter further?

 

[swaldman]

Perhaps relevant to this: I have recently been booking my Christmas/New Year travel, which is long distance between Aberdeen and London. Scotrail's website has warnings against most early-Jan services, saying that they may not run because Network Rail has not yet confirmed the timetable. This is 4-5 weeks before travel; waiting any longer to book will mean that the prices rise so as to be unaffordable. It seems to be a choice between booking a train that may not exist, or... or, well, flying. Which is cheaper in any case.

I don't like to fly where I don't have to, but the railways are really making it hard to justify using them.

 

[Haywain]

I don't like to fly where I don't have to, but the railways are really making it hard to justify using them.

The TOCs are well aware of this but the problem lies with Network Rail. There is no evidence that the problem is going to go away any time soon.

 

[robbeech]

Well, do you plan to take the matter further?

I will happily take some time to ensure I get my refund.

 

[embers25]

Just spotted this on page nine of the TFW passenger charter...

I have escalated my claim after many failures to Andy Mellors CEO of SWR, who has confirmed, once again, that "there is no compensation due for delays caused by this action".

It is ridiculous that Exeter St Davids never let Pinhoe passengers travel to Polsloe Bridge, particularly when you miss the SWR service due to a late running GWR train. The strike timetables have frequently been updated on the night before or even during the day and several times this has meant slow Exeter-Honiton buses have gotten removed or replaced by an express, meaning no stop at Pinhoe. Most Stagecoach drivers have given up guessing where they are going until the useless First Rail Replacement rep tells them as it rarely reflects their original schedule.

 

[superalbs]

It is ridiculous that Exeter St Davids never let Pinhoe passengers travel to Polsloe Bridge, particularly when you miss the SWR service due to a late running GWR train. The strike timetables have frequently been updated on the night before or even during the day and several times this has meant slow Exeter-Honiton buses have gotten removed or replaced by an express, meaning no stop at Pinhoe. Most Stagecoach drivers have given up guessing where they are going until the useless First Rail Replacement rep tells them as it rarely reflects their original schedule.

I had to buy an additional ticket to even get to Polsloe Bridge, and neither the original, or the additional were refunded. It is total madness.

 

[A Challenge]

I’m not sure Delay Repay is really the right mechanism for dealing with timetable changes - it’s certainly not within the spirit of what it’s designed for in my opinion.

I think that a season is different, as the timetable you've got (on paper or PDF) says 'until XX/XX/XXXX' on it, so you can say that up until then you can claim and and after you can't. Ones that say 'Until Further notice' is harder though for Engineering works, do they count as having had notice?

 

[furlong]

The TOCs have only themselves to blame much of the time. When contact details are collected with so many purchases now, why doesn't the whole industry already regenerate itineraries when something changes (offering a new one that preserves the departure time and another that preserves the arrival time and saying how to get a full refund) and notify the traveller of the change (email, SMS, app notifications, automated phone call, message displayed on the screen when collecting ToD)?

 

[joncombe]

The TOCs have only themselves to blame much of the time. When contact details are collected with so many purchases now, why doesn't the whole industry already regenerate itineraries when something changes (offering a new one that preserves the departure time and another that preserves the arrival time and saying how to get a full refund) and notify the traveller of the change (email, SMS, app notifications, automated phone call, message displayed on the screen when collecting ToD)?

I made this point to Virgin Trains when it happened to me (I had booked a journey which was partly on Virgin and partly Northern). The Northern train was not running because of a strike. I did point out that I had given my contact details when booking and they must have been aware that the train I was scheduled on was no longer running. They can, after all, send numerous emails in the days leading up to a journey. However time and again I was told that it's not possible, so I gave up. I can't believe it's hard to query in a database passengers that have booked journey on trains when they are deleted or changed and at least notify them. I also had the same discussion with GWR when a train I was booked on had the times changed (unknown to me, until I got to the station). Again, GWR told me it isn't possible. I don't believe them - it seems to me the TOCs just can't be bothered and don't care.

The TOCs are well aware of this but the problem lies with Network Rail. There is no evidence that the problem is going to go away any time soon.

Depressing. I used to make a lot of rail journeys. In the last year I've virtually given up making long journeys in the UK by rail. My local TOC is SWR who have been on strike most Saturdays (which is when I usually travel), as are Northern who I also often use. You can't book far in advance now (and so prices are often higher) and in my experience even if you do book in advance, it's very common to find the originally booked journey is no longer possible at the specified times, and the response from the TOCs when it happens is basically "tough". Walk up fares for long journeys are far too expensive.

 

[35B]

I made this point to Virgin Trains when it happened to me (I had booked a journey which was partly on Virgin and partly Northern). The Northern train was not running because of a strike. I did point out that I had given my contact details when booking and they must have been aware that the train I was scheduled on was no longer running. They can, after all, send numerous emails in the days leading up to a journey. However time and again I was told that it's not possible, so I gave up. I can't believe it's hard to query in a database passengers that have booked journey on trains when they are deleted or changed and at least notify them. I also had the same discussion with GWR when a train I was booked on had the times changed (unknown to me, until I got to the station). Again, GWR told me it isn't possible. I don't believe them - it seems to me the TOCs just can't be bothered and don't care.



Depressing. I used to make a lot of rail journeys. In the last year I've virtually given up making long journeys in the UK by rail. My local TOC is SWR who have been on strike most Saturdays (which is when I usually travel), as are Northern who I also often use. You can't book far in advance now (and so prices are often higher) and in my experience even if you do book in advance, it's very common to find the originally booked journey is no longer possible at the specified times, and the response from the TOCs when it happens is basically "tough". Walk up fares for long journeys are far too expensive.

It will not be as easy or cheap as all that to implement, even if confined to tickets sold by the operator. However, as it is something that airlines have implemented, it is a case of where there is a will...

 

[Hadders]

It will not be as easy or cheap as all that to implement, even if confined to tickets sold by the operator. However, as it is something that airlines have implemented, it is a case of where there is a will...

If they can't (or won't) do it then they should pay delay repay if passengers are delayed.

 

[35B]

If they can't (or won't) do it then they should pay delay repay if passengers are delayed.

I quite agree. But, there again, I would not want to be in a position where an operator could argue that as they'd sent that message, this was a legitimate variation of the contract - which is the way that airlines work.

 

[superalbs]

I have just received £27.35 from GWR for the 4th of August case. Not sure why they have paid, it was clean-cut SWR's fault, but ok.

 

[gray1404]

I noticed when I was booking some advance tickets online about 3 weeks ago for a journey at the end of January, some of the TOC booking sites I checked on were displaying a notice saying that train timetables are getting confirmed later then usual and to check the times are still correct nearer to the date of travel. However, I was still able to buy the tickets I needed along with an itinerary - and of course reservations too.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I noticed when I was booking some advance tickets online about 3 weeks ago for a journey at the end of January, some of the TOC booking sights I checked on were displaying a notice saying that train timetables are getting confirmed later then usual and to check the times are still correct nearer to the date of travel. However, I was still able to buy the tickets I needed along with an itinerary - and of course reservations too.

Indeed, and that is always good advice so as you can change your plans (or at least your expectations) if the timetable changes materially. But it doesn't affect any tickets already sold. Any TOC that claims otherwise simply doesn't understand the fundamental principles of contract law.

 

[najaB]

But it doesn't affect any tickets already sold

On the contrary, it does. If the timetable changes then you're able to get a fee-free rebooking or refund, even on Advances.

 

[robbeech]

Any TOC that claims otherwise simply doesn't understand the fundamental principles of contract law.

Or they do understand and choose to ignore it.

 

[gray1404]

If the timetable changes though, even though you are entitled to a fee free refund or change of travel plans. If say there were no more advances left or only those at a higher tier I would not refund or rebook my ticket. I would simply turn up at the station with my existing tickets knowing I would have to be accommodated on the next available trains leaving after the original booked departure time.

On a side note, I booked at ticket end of November for travel end of January. Will that still be on the ToD database and possible to collect from the station still on the day of travel? It won't be too long after booking will it as I am sure there comes a point whereby uncollected tickets may no longer be able to be found. I don't want to collect them until the day of travel as I booked on XC.

 

[Haywain]

On a side note, I booked at ticket end of November for travel end of January. Will that still be on the ToD database and possible to collect from the station still on the day of travel? It won't be too long after booking will it as I am sure there comes a point whereby uncollected tickets may no longer be able to be found. I don't want to collect them until the day of travel as I booked on XC.

Tickets will always remain in the system until the date of travel, and for some time beyond that (I can't remember how long after though).

 

[superalbs]

SWR have paid £37.44 for my £29.95 claim.

They stated that they were sorry that I feel that they have awarded compensation incorrectly (ie. none), but that they were right to (issue none).

However then they go on to say that they are giving me £37.44 (this is 1.25x what's due), because of how long it took them to respond.

It seems to me that this is a subtle admission of guilt! A precedent for future claims against this rogue TOC?