South Wales electrification

[anthony263]

Exactly what was laid out in the budget though? Also, does today's anouncment quietly rule out Swansea or is it still a possiblity?

I think Swansea is still a possibility.

I am sure the WG will perhasp be trying to piggyback it onto the Valley Lines scheme

 

[HSTEd]

Are there any other soon to be displaced EMUs that are not spoken for (not Cl319?).... what is being displaced by the Thameslink programme or is that all going for capacity enhancement?

Like I said, every reused EMU carriage is two track kilometres of extra wire.

 

[tbtc]

Are there any other soon to be displaced EMUs that are not spoken for (not Cl319?).... what is being displaced by the Thameslink programme or is that all going for capacity enhancement?

FCC run 313/ 317/ 321/ 365s on GN (as well as the 319s on Thameslink).

When the GN services go through the Thameslink "core" that should free up most of the other units (other than the 313s for Moorgate) - the plan may be that some of the EMUs (365s) stay for Cambridge "fasts" and peak extras from Kings Cross (high level!), with the 317/321s presumably going to the GEML operator to work with similar EMUs there.

But,who knows how things will look in a few years time?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Off the top of my head, you need 33 DMUs to run the off=peak services that pass through Cardiff Queen Street (assuming no peak extras, assuming no doubling up of units, assuming no maintenance "spares etc).

So, allowing for peak extras/ doubling up of certain services/ maintenance, you are probably talking around a quarter of the total number of Pacers that need replacing - this is a sizeable sum (considerably more than you'd get for wiring a similar length of line further north in the UK).

ATW have 30 Pacers. My old guestimates were that all of them could be released, along with 8 150s to replace FGW's 8 remaining pacers (I think that included Maesteg and Ebbw Vale being wired though). Given that ATW have 30 150s too, and that most of them are used in the Valleys, I'm a little supprised that the Valleys uses just 33 units.

In the (sadly now closed) WAG Express thread there was much boasting of the powers that the WAG now have (in terms of what they can spend money on). That's great, but the "double edged" part of it is that it does mean the WAG putting their hands into their pocket rather than relying on Dave in Westminster getting his chequebook out.

As I was trying to say over there, rail infrastructure spend is not devolved, meaning WAG don't get a slice of taxation revenue handed to them from Westminister for the purpose.

But that is due to change to 2tph in a year or so. In the case of the Vale of Glamorgan

I think they are looking at diverting one of the Barry Island services each hour to Bridgend to make Barry - Bridgend 2tph, but that won't happen without extra stock if ATW's surplus 150s are put to use elsewhere.

In any case, the traffic is heavy enough west of Cardiff to justify electrification especially when you take the heavy steel works traffic into account.

You would have to wire the Swansea District Line to get electric frieght to one of the steelworks (Llanelli). I think there is a fairly major depot for freight locos near Port Talbot (near where the other (I think much larger) steelworks is I think) at Margam though, so an electric could be swapped for a class 60 there for Llanelli steel trains and Milford oil trains.

If we are going to have sparks, then let's do it once and for all. Otherwise I predict years of more campaigning and wrangling over what should and should not be done.

I agree. Vale Of Glamorgan, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale are important parts of the Valleys network, and these at least should be wired along with everything through Cardiff Queen Street and the Cardiff - Swansea line. Cardiff - Cheltenham electrification would allow an hourly electric service and provide half the Severn tunnel diversionary route.

 

[tbtc]

ATW have 30 Pacers. My old guestimates were that all of them could be released, along with 8 150s to replace FGW's 8 remaining pacers (I think that included Maesteg and Ebbw Vale being wired though). Given that ATW have 30 150s too, and that most of them are used in the Valleys, I'm a little supprised that the Valleys uses just 33 units

That 33 is just the number of single units required to maintain the offpeak services through Queen Street in an hour (not including Ebbw Vale/ Maesteg etc). The total number of DMUs required over the week to run the services through Queen Street may knocking on forty.

Another advantage of the Queen Street lines is that it could be done completely independently from the GWML wiring - it doesn't depend on piggy-backing on GWML electrification (which running to, say, Maesteg would).

Vale Of Glamorgan, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale are important parts of the Valleys network, and these at least should be wired along with everything through Cardiff Queen Street and the Cardiff - Swansea line. Cardiff - Cheltenham electrification would allow an hourly electric service and provide half the Severn tunnel diversionary route.

Vale of Glamorgan to Bridgend makes sense, because the hourly extension beyond Barry allows a Merthyr service to be fully converted.

But if the Swansea line isn't being wired (and, as things stand, it isn't) then Maesteg is a long way to go to wire just an hourly service.

Going to Cheltenham etc would have to be part of a much bigger thing (maybe tied into Bristol - Birmingham etc), and likely to happen much much later. The self contained Queen Street services could be done much easier and have a much better concentration of units (compared to the distance you'd need to go to wire up some hourly services).

 

[Rhydgaled]

Going to Cheltenham etc would have to be part of a much bigger thing (maybe tied into Bristol - Birmingham etc), and likely to happen much much later. The self contained Queen Street services could be done much easier and have a much better concentration of units (compared to the distance you'd need to go to wire up some hourly services).

I see your point. The critical extension to the GWML electrification in my opinion is everything through Queen Street plus Cardiff to Swansea, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale. Cardiff - Cheltenham would be a nice-to-have on top of that.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Exactly what was laid out in the budget though? Also, does today's anouncment quietly rule out Swansea or is it still a possiblity?

See Reply #5 for the Budget text (as vague as you can get).
Nothing is settled till the HLOS.

 

[12CSVT]

I still think it may only be the 'core' section wired - Penarth, Barry Island, Coryton, Treherbert, aberdare, Merthyr and Rhymney. Come to think of it, is it worth wiring the Bay branch?

At just over a mile of single track, the cost of wiring the Cardiff Bay branch would be minimal compared with the rest of the Valley Lines network.

 

[PhilipW]

Another advantage of the Queen Street lines is that it could be done completely independently from the GWML wiring - it doesn't depend on piggy-backing on GWML electrification

Very true, but I'm sure the plan would be to complete GWML electrification first and then use the same team with all their experience to go on and wire the Valley lines. That's the way to keep the costs down and get the lines electrified quickly and efficiently.

That's what I would do.

 

[NXEA!]

FCC run 313/ 317/ 321/ 365s on GN (as well as the 319s on Thameslink).

When the GN services go through the Thameslink "core" that should free up most of the other units (other than the 313s for Moorgate) - the plan may be that some of the EMUs (365s) stay for Cambridge "fasts" and peak extras from Kings Cross (high level!), with the 317/321s presumably going to the GEML operator to work with similar EMUs there.

But,who knows how things will look in a few years time?

313's for Moorgate will be staying as you say, but the Cambridge/Kings Lynn fasts will be going over to IEP operation with commuter seating layout, which means there will be more EMU's free, and I think for some peak hour additionals you could manage with just the 317's/321's which come to 25 sets (cascade the 317's to GA and send 12 321's back to FCC so there is a uniform fleet of 321's for peak hour additionals), which means that all of the 365's might be released - personally I would send the 365's to the GW region, and then use the 319's freed up to be used as an incentive to electrify more Northern routes, or as an alternative send the 319's to the Valley Lines and just scrap the 315's as they'll be reaching the end of their life anyway.

 

[anthony263]

313's for Moorgate will be staying as you say, but the Cambridge/Kings Lynn fasts will be going over to IEP operation with commuter seating layout, which means there will be more EMU's free, and I think for some peak hour additionals you could manage with just the 317's/321's which come to 25 sets (cascade the 317's to GA and send 12 321's back to FCC so there is a uniform fleet of 321's for peak hour additionals), which means that all of the 365's might be released - personally I would send the 365's to the GW region, and then use the 319's freed up to be used as an incentive to electrify more Northern routes, or as an alternative send the 319's to the Valley Lines and just scrap the 315's as they'll be reaching the end of their life anyway.

The higher top speed and acceleration of the class 319's to the class 315's would make them ideal for the Swansea - Cardiff swanline service and a Maesteg - Ebbw Vale service as they will be must quicker than a class 150/153 so can make sizable cut in journey times..

 

[HSTEd]

Scrapping the Cl315s would be wasteful, supposedly HSTs are good for many years yet and they are considerably older.
If you put the Cl315 fleet to Valley Lines services that frees the Cl365s for secondary services on the actual SWML/GWML and leaves us with a fleet of Cl319s for north-western services.

 

[anthony263]

Scrapping the Cl315s would be wasteful, supposedly HSTs are good for many years yet and they are considerably older.
If you put the Cl315 fleet to Valley Lines services that frees the Cl365s for secondary services on the actual SWML/GWML and leaves us with a fleet of Cl319s for north-western services.

Very good idea and hopefully the class 365's would be cleared to work on the SWML/GWML if IEP is

 

[HSTEd]

It would appear we would have a hard time occupying the entire 61 unit fleet of Cl315s on just the Welsh Valleys though, as there would never be any need for peak time doubling (if 8 carriages would even fit into most of the Valley line platforms).
(Thats what? 35 units tops?)

Are there any other ATW services that could easily be converted and are currently operated by 75mph units?

 

[anthony263]

It would be ideal if the class 315's could be reduced to run as 3 carriage units doubling up in the peaks on some services.

If we do get the class 315's I hope they get a good refurbishment like the class 313's which FCC operate into Moorgate.

You would need three units to work the Swansea - Cardiff swanline service which should be increased to hourly and you would need at least three units to work an hourly Cardiff - Cheltenham service if the Severn Tunnel diversionary route is also wired.

There would also need to be 3 units for a Maesteg - Ebbw Vale and at least 2 for a Ebbw Vale - Newport service. Also if the vale of Glamorgan service goes half hourly that would require and extra maybe two if trains are extended beyond Bridgend to Maesteg.

Ideally it would be great if the local lines around Bristol are re-opened and wired that could make use of a few class 315's

 

[Bald Rick]

The post 2018 ECML ex FCC services will be the preserve of IEPs on the Cambridge / Fenland flyers, 313s on everything to Moorgate and peak WGC-KGX, 12 car 365s on the peak only extras from Peterborough, and everything else goes south of the river with new TL stock. So I guess that leaves some 365s and all the current FCC 321s and 317s looking for a home.

 

[DjU]

It would appear we would have a hard time occupying the entire 61 unit fleet of Cl315s on just the Welsh Valleys though, as there would never be any need for peak time doubling (if 8 carriages would even fit into most of the Valley line platforms).
(Thats what? 35 units tops?)

Are there any other ATW services that could easily be converted and are currently operated by 75mph units?

Except not all 61 units a currently expected to be freed by Crossrail.

15 plus units work on the West Anglia side, plus there will a residual peak service of around 4tph into Liverpool Street on the Shenfield Metro services over and above the 12tph going through Crossrail.

All things currently point to these still being run by the 315s so only around half will be freed up by Crossrail, so unless any new franchise replaces the other half not all will be avaliable.

 

[HSTEd]

Except not all 61 units a currently expected to be freed by Crossrail.

15 plus units work on the West Anglia side, plus there will a residual peak service of around 4tph into Liverpool Street on the Shenfield Metro services over and above the 12tph going through Crossrail.

All things currently point to these still being run by the 315s so only around half will be freed up by Crossrail, so unless any new franchise replaces the other half not all will be avaliable.

Oh well that solves that, ATW can loose its Pacers and probably some of its Cl150s with ~30 Cl315 units.
That is assuming that all of the Valley lines including Maesteg are electrified.

Additionally reducing the length of the Cl315s (by deleting the TSO) would be wasteful of a large number of vehicles that would have to be scrapped otherwise, I do not believe that the current projected demand on the Valley lines would ever be sufficient to render 4 vehicle trains insufficient.

You might have to fit atleast one toilet (stripped from the scrapped Pacers?) though.

Actually, surely it would make more sense for the residual service to be operated by additional Crossrail stock?

 

[tbtc]

That is assuming that all of the Valley lines including Maesteg are electrified

If the Swansea line isn't wired (and, as things stand it won't be) then Maesteg is a long way to wire just to save an hourly DMU. Same with Ebbw Vale. More logical to wait for the Swansea line to be wired and then link these into a through Maesteg - Ebbw Vale service (with the Cheltenham service truncated at Cardiff)

 

[sprinterguy]

You might have to fit atleast one toilet (stripped from the scrapped Pacers?) though.

Even if using 315s in the Valleys was only a stop gap measure for a few years then it would make sense to fit a completely new DDA compliant toilet to the units. I can't see their being much of a clamour to instate the fairly rustic cupboard toilets fitted to the Pacers on the 315s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Additionally reducing the length of the Cl315s (by deleting the TSO) would be wasteful of a large number of vehicles that would have to be scrapped otherwise, I do not believe that the current projected demand on the Valley lines would ever be sufficient to render 4 vehicle trains insufficient.

What's the maximum train length that the platforms along the Valley Lines can take? If it's six carriages then it would probably prove beneficial to reduce the 315s down to three carriages which would allow for some 6 carriage running rather than them being stuck at a maximum of four carriages, given that the Valleys already see many doubled up Pacers and there's the probable "sparks effect" on passenger numbers to consider.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Scrapping the Cl315s would be wasteful, supposedly HSTs are good for many years yet and they are considerably older.

The HSTs aren't considerably older, they were intorduced between 1976 and 1982 while the 315s were introduced in 1980/1. Same age essentially. Also I believe that the 315s are being affected by corrosion to a greater extent than mark 3s and while it may be possible for rolling stock to continue in service for a number of years, it's not always a desirable impression to make: Even at my most optimistic I can't see work starting on Valley Lines electrification before 2016 (Perhaps making use of the wiring team that did the North West project) when the 315s will be over 35 years old. And if a decent refurbishment was to be done on the units before they enter service then the TOC would probably want to get at least 10 years of use of them. Although EMUs going on to 45-50 years of age doesn't sound hugely outlandish.

 

[anthony263]

I believe the platforms on the Rhymney & Treherbert lines can take 6 carriage trains while the stations on the Vale of Glamorgan, Ebbw Vale, Aberdare lines can only accomodate 4 carriage trains although it was suggested that these could be getting extended in the near future.

I was thinking if Southern get their class 377's back is there any chance that the class 313's that are with southern could be refitted with their pantographs although there will only be a few of them.

I wonder if the plan is to cascade the class 315's to the valley lines network that work could be done to sort out the corrosion problemns as I can agree some of them are in terrible condition.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It would appear we would have a hard time occupying the entire 61 unit fleet of Cl315s on just the Welsh Valleys though, as there would never be any need for peak time doubling (if 8 carriages would even fit into most of the Valley line platforms).
(Thats what? 35 units tops?)

Are there any other ATW services that could easily be converted and are currently operated by 75mph units?

Given that some valleys have 4-car platforms and others have six I'd suggest either:

• A mix of 3-car units and 2-car units (doubling in the peaks) or
• A mix of 4-car and 3-car units with
  • The 6-car routes having doubled-up 3-car units in the peaks
  • The 4-car routes having 4-car units in the peaks
  • The 6-car routes having 4-car units off-peak
  • The 4-car routes having 3-car units off-peak

No idea if any of those permutations would work in terms of number of units/carriages required in total though.

Oh well that solves that, ATW can loose its Pacers and probably some of its Cl150s with ~30 Cl315 units.
That is assuming that all of the Valley lines including Maesteg are electrified.

My past guesstimates indicated that all the ATW Pacers could go along with 8 150s to replace FGW's 8 pacers if ValleyLines (including Maesteg, Vale Of Glamorgan and Ebbw Vale) was electrified (I might have included Cheltenham or Swanline though, I can't remember now).

Additionally reducing the length of the Cl315s (by deleting the TSO) would be wasteful of a large number of vehicles that would have to be scrapped otherwise

If you are sending 4-car units to the valleys but want 6-car in the peaks then I'd suggest putting the coaches removed from some units into others to make 5-car sets. A 5-car set probablly wouldn't be much help in the valleys themselves, but could be useful for the Swansea - Cardiff swanline service, and Cheltenham - Cardiff, if the required routes are wired (if both are wired, I'd suggest the Swanline run through to Cheltenham to save having 2 seperate trains terminating at Cardiff).

More logical to wait for the Swansea line to be wired and then link these into a through Maesteg - Ebbw Vale service (with the Cheltenham service truncated at Cardiff)

I'd suggest doing that now. I think linking Maesteg - Ebbw Vale and having a seperate Cardiff - Cheltenham would use the same number as units as the current arrangment, with the added benifit that (assuming you want Cardiff - Cheltenham to be 158-operated because of the sections of greater than 75mph linespeed) you reduce the number of 158s needed from 4 to 3 by not sending 158s to Maesteg.

 

[ainsworth74]

Given that some valleys have 4-car platforms and others have six I'd suggest either:

• A mix of 3-car units and 2-car units (doubling in the peaks) or
• A mix of 4-car and 3-car units with
  • The 6-car routes having doubled-up 3-car units in the peaks
  • The 4-car routes having 4-car units in the peaks
  • The 6-car routes having 4-car units off-peak
  • The 4-car routes having 3-car units off-peak

I don't think a 2-car 315 would be practical as it would require a complex and expensive conversion of either a DMSO into a DPTSO or a PTSO into a DPTSO. A build of 3-car and 4-car units seems to make the most sense (or just a pure build of 3-car units with SDO for the platforms where doubled up units are too long).

 

[tbtc]

Given that some valleys have 4-car platforms and others have six I'd suggest either:

• A mix of 3-car units and 2-car units (doubling in the peaks)

• 
  
  I'd be surprised if any two coach EMUs are built in future (given the need for a DDA toilet etc) - just my personal hunch (rather than anything official)
  
  

  My past guesstimates indicated that all the ATW Pacers could go along with 8 150s to replace FGW's 8 pacers if ValleyLines (including Maesteg, Vale Of Glamorgan and Ebbw Vale) was electrified (I might have included Cheltenham or Swanline though, I can't remember now)

  
  AFAICR there are around thirty Pacers with ATW, so if you assume that the 33 DMU off-peak requirement for the Queen Street services means half a dozen additional Pacers needed (due to doubling up/ maintenance/ peak extras) then you should have enough to replace all ATW Pacers and FGW Pacers by doing the Queen Street lines (no need for Maesteg/ Ebbw Vale etc)
  
  

  I'd suggest doing that now. I think linking Maesteg - Ebbw Vale and having a seperate Cardiff - Cheltenham would use the same number as units as the current arrangment, with the added benifit that (assuming you want Cardiff - Cheltenham to be 158-operated because of the sections of greater than 75mph linespeed) you reduce the number of 158s needed from 4 to 3 by not sending 158s to Maesteg.

  
  That makes sense. Ideally I'd like your stand along Cardiff - Cheltenham service to be tagged on to the XC Nottingham - Birmingham "short" (giving two Nottingham - Cardiff services an hour) but that would need more 170s (which aren't exactly spare).
  
  Concentrating 158s on a shorter Cardiff - Cheltenham service makes a lot of sense, allowing ATW to keep the 90mph units on suitable services (given the fact that they don't always have enough faster DMUs for the Manchester/ Holyhead trips) - good thinking
  --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
  

  I don't think a 2-car 315 would be practical as it would require a complex and expensive conversion of either a DMSO into a DPTSO or a PTSO into a DPTSO. A build of 3-car and 4-car units seems to make the most sense (or just a pure build of 3-car units with SDO for the platforms where doubled up units are too long).

  
  Like the Scotrail 380s?
  
  3/4 coach, corridor connected, so able to run as 3/4/6/7/8 coach, best of both worlds?

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'd be surprised if any two coach EMUs are built in future (given the need for a DDA toilet etc) - just my personal hunch (rather than anything official)

Good point that. Half the 2-car units would probablly have to be toilet-less (and only used for extending other units) if you go down that route.

AFAICR there are around thirty Pacers with ATW, so if you assume that the 33 DMU off-peak requirement for the Queen Street services means half a dozen additional Pacers needed (due to doubling up/ maintenance/ peak extras) then you should have enough to replace all ATW Pacers and FGW Pacers by doing the Queen Street lines (no need for Maesteg/ Ebbw Vale etc)

It's a while since I made that guestimate, but I think I had more than 8 150s released, but with ATW retaining the others for improving services in the north and south-west of Wales. I think it also created enough slack for ATW's 8 153s to be reduced to 4, so I guess you could be right that you could get rid of all Pacers outside Northern without wiring Ebbw Vale and Maesteg.

I don't think a 2-car 315 would be practical as it would require a complex and expensive conversion of either a DMSO into a DPTSO or a PTSO into a DPTSO. A build of 3-car and 4-car units seems to make the most sense (or just a pure build of 3-car units with SDO for the platforms where doubled up units are too long).

I wasn't talking in terms of 315s with that suggestion, just generally in terms of the lengths of unit that would seem to sit well given the platform lengths. In particular I'm still thinking in terms of purpose-built units similar to 377s, but if cascaded EMUs are what makes the case work then do what you can with them. If 315s are what the valleys will get, then I think it is probablly best to stick to 4-car formations (no corridor connections makes multiple working messy).

3/4 coach, corridor connected, so able to run as 3/4/6/7/8 coach, best of both worlds?

Somthing like 3-car 377s (the corridor connection is a must, for strengthening while allowing passengers to move between units while moving) would probably do the job nicely. Some 4-car units might be needed for the routes with 4-car platforms though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That makes sense. Ideally I'd like your stand along Cardiff - Cheltenham service to be tagged on to the XC Nottingham - Birmingham "short" (giving two Nottingham - Cardiff services an hour) but that would need more 170s (which aren't exactly spare).

Concentrating 158s on a shorter Cardiff - Cheltenham service makes a lot of sense, allowing ATW to keep the 90mph units on suitable services (given the fact that they don't always have enough faster DMUs for the Manchester/ Holyhead trips) - good thinking

Ideally Cardiff - Cheltenham would be electrified using the just-mentioned 377s and running through to Swansea as the Swanline, but some LM-style 172s just doing Cardiff - Cheltenham (possibly extending to Birmingham, but that's moving out of the outer-suburban band that Cardiff - Cheltenham proabablly is, making 170/172 units less suitable) would do the trick too. That would release those three 158s for new regional express services (I'm tied between Cambrian mainline hourly and Cardiff - Pembrokeshire via Swansea district line).

 

[tbtc]

Out of interest, roughly how often are Valley Line services run by doubled up units?

(also, the reason I'm not talking about electrification to Cheltenham is that that'd really better be tied to electrification of Birmingham - Cheltenham - Bristol etc - its a long way to wire just to free up the hourly ATW service)

 

[anthony263]

Out of interest, roughly how often are Valley Line services run by doubled up units?

(also, the reason I'm not talking about electrification to Cheltenham is that that'd really better be tied to electrification of Birmingham - Cheltenham - Bristol etc - its a long way to wire just to free up the hourly ATW service)

I would the majority of services working to Trerherbert,Rhymeny are running with doubled up units.

The same could be said for the Merthyr Tydfil/Aberdare services although some services are worked by a single class 150.

The Ebbw Vale line has doubled up units on saturdays and sometimes on sundays.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

If the Swansea line isn't wired (and, as things stand it won't be) then Maesteg is a long way to wire just to save an hourly DMU.

As I have pointed out before,Maesteg is to get a half hourly service. I have a sneaky feeling that common sense will prevail and that the wires will go to Swansea.

 

[anthony263]

As I have pointed out before,Maesteg is to get a half hourly service. I have a sneaky feeling that common sense will prevail and that the wires will go to Swansea.

The main reason why the DFT said the wires should only go to Cardiff is that there would only be an hourly electric service between Cardiff & Swansea of course it seems the DFT forgot about the off peak Swansea - Cardiff swanline service.

Of course some of the freights between Margam and Llanwern could also use electric traction if Maragm yard and the relief lines east of Cardiff etc are wired.

 

[ainsworth74]

As I have pointed out before,Maesteg is to get a half hourly service. I have a sneaky feeling that common sense will prevail and that the wires will go to Swansea.

The main reason why the DFT said the wires should only go to Cardiff is that there would only be an hourly electric service between Cardiff & Swansea of course it seems the DFT forgot about the off peak Swansea - Cardiff swanline service.

Actually I wonder if the DfT aren't playing a rather sneaky game with regards to Swansea and electrification. By leaving it off the GWML electrification I wonder if they aren't trying to persuade the WAG to fund the wiring of that part of the route saving themselves some cash in the process, but if the WAG doesn't go for it for whatever reason, they are still open to reversing their decision in the future (by making part of the Valley Lines electrification perhaps). Maybe it's a bit too sneaky for them but I wouldn't be surprised if there are elements within the DfT that are hoping that the WAG are going step in and pay up for wiring to Swansea.