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South Wales 'Metro' updates

Envoy

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Certainly and could be incorporated into the proposed coach station on the south side of Central station. An elevated section would be good just gotta somehow psth the trains through the junctions by canton depot

I presume the problem is getting across from the City Line (Ninian Park) to the south side of the Taff Bridge to gain access to Callaghan Square - and hopefully an elevated section to the Bay Line? Here is the track layout:> https://raildar.co.uk/map/CDF
 
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mwmbwls

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Planners need to be careful to avoid traffic mixing at very busy locations where volume of traffic can be a problem, but that shouldn't be a problem on the Valleys network, where central Cardiff is and should remain largely grade-separated. That's why for the mooted 'Crossrail' proposal for diverting the city line past Central station towards the Bay, I advocate a new elevated alignment for the fairly short link rather than crossing very busy streets on the level, e.g.: View attachment 81291
I think that this is an eminently sensible suggestion. The use of such elevated alignments has stood the DLR in good stead.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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The obvious problem with MarkyT's suggestion is that it doesn't enable access to Cardiff Central station. Presumably it would be possible to provide an elevated interchange station with either a platform or ground level link for passengres wishing to change at Central station.
 

Envoy

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I reckon that they could do it by having a platform where such a line could come off the Taff bridge and go the south side of platform 8. Photo 1 below shows where such a line would come across the Taff bridge whilst the other shows the view looking SE - with the new platform being roughly where the car is located - therefore on the south side of the western part of P8. Unfortunately Network Rail in their great wisdom went and plonked a new signal where such a line could go.

SIGNAL CF 2947 CARDIFF CENTRAL.jpegSIGNAL CF2947 REAR CARDIFF CENTRAL.jpeg
 

Envoy

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I have just had a Labour (Mark Drakeford) News circular posted through my door. It has a section that tells the public about the ongoing study to link Llantrisant > Cregiau > Plasdwr > Cardiff Central > Bay > Splott> Tremorfa > and onto the new Cardiff Parkway. Can anybody tell me exactly how such a tram-train service will get from Cardiff Bay to Cardiff Parkway? If it were to go meandering around the streets of the Bay area, Splott and Tremorfa, I fail to see how it could accurately get a slot on even the relief lines in order to reach Cardiff Parkway. I also note that 4 platforms are planned at Cardiff Parkway - with no Bay platform for tram-train services. You surely can't just have a tram-train terminate on a through line that is used by freight trains? Perhaps they are planning to build a new line out to Cardiff Parkway?

The Labour party news sheet also says this about the tram-trains:> “These will have diesel, electric and battery power capability, enabling them toward as a traditional train on the valleys lines, and transform into a tram in the city centre”. Well, that is news to me! I did not know that they were going to have diesel engines as well. Does the Labour Government know what they have ordered? My information is that it is the Stadler Flirts on the Rhymney to Coast line that will by tri-mode not the tram-trains.

This is what has been ordered:> https://railcolornews.com/2018/06/0...wales-and-border-with-95-new-trains-bij-2023/
KeolisAmey unfolded its plans for the Wales and Borders network on 4 juni 2018 after being announced the winning operator of this franchise. In partnership with Transport for Wales (TfW) it will further develop the South Wales Metro.
 
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Energy

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Does the Labour Government know what they have ordered?
Apparently not, they are available with diesel engines but the TfW units will only be battery-electric. Some of the Stadler Flirts are diesel electric only, some are trimodes (diesel electric, overhead lines and battery)
 

Dr Day

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What has already been ordered is for the existing network - with compatibility with freight needed for the Rhymney corridor (tri-mode heavy rail trains) and capability of street-running for services to Cardiff Bay (tram-train). AFAIK this potential new line from Llantrisant to Cardiff Parkway is still very much at the feasibility stages so could be a follow-on order or something different, depending on requirements for street running/top speed/toilets/electrification etc on this possible new route.
 

Cardiff123

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What has already been ordered is for the existing network - with compatibility with freight needed for the Rhymney corridor (tri-mode heavy rail trains) and capability of street-running for services to Cardiff Bay (tram-train).
TfW/Keolis Amey have never explicitly given a reason for why the Rhymney line is getting heavy rail Flirts, and not the tram-trains. The tram-trains would definitely be better suited to the Coryton line than the HR Flirts.
Compatibility with the coal trains that run to & from Cwmbargoed is probably one reason, but given that it's highly unlikely that coal trains will still be running to/from Cwmbargoed beyond the middle of this decade, I suspect the main reason that Rhymney & Coryton are getting the HR Flirts is due to the fact this line will be 'paired' for operational reasons with the Penarth, Barry and VoG lines, which are staying in Network Rail control and for the forseeable future, are not getting any infrastructure upgrades. So heavy rail diesel operated trains are still needed for these routes.
 
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edwin_m

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TfW/Keolis Amey have never explicitly given a reason for why the Rhymney line is getting heavy rail Flirts, and not the tram-trains. The tram-trains would definitely be better suited to the Coryton line that the HR Flirts.
Compatibility with the coal trains that run to & from Cwmbargoed is probably one reason, but given that it's highly unlikely that coal trains will still be running to/from Cwmbargoed beyond the middle of this decade, I suspect the main reason that Rhymney & Coryton are getting the HR Flirts is due to the fact this line will be 'paired' for operational reasons with the Penarth, Barry and VoG lines, which are staying in Network Rail control and for the forseeable future, are not getting any infrastructure upgrades. So heavy rail diesel operated trains are still needed for these routes.
I think it might be the other way round, that the Rhymney line is paired operationally with the diesel lines to the south because that line will use the Flirts. If there had been a need to use the Flirts on the routes via Pontypridd then those could have been through-routed instead.

I suspect the reason to put the Flirts on the Rhymney/Coryton lines is partly because of the potential interworking with freight, which I understand had to be allowed for even though nobody seems to believe it will ever run again. The other reason might be concern about the tunnel between Lisvane and Caerphilly, which I believe isn't going to be electrified. Even if they should normally be able to get through in battery mode, having a diesel on board is handy if the train ever gets stopped out of course.
 

Brissle Girl

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I have just had a Labour (Mark Drakeford) News circular titled ‘Cardiff West Report’ posted through my door. It has a section that tells the public about the ongoing study to link Llantrisant > Cregiau > Plasdwr > Cardiff Central > Bay > Splott> Tremorfa > and onto the new Cardiff Parkway. Can anybody tell me exactly how such a tram-train service will get from Cardiff Bay to Cardiff Parkway? If it were to go meandering around the streets of the Bay area, Splott and Tremorfa, I fail to see how it could accurately get a slot on even the relief lines in order to reach Cardiff Parkway. I also note that 4 platforms are planned at Cardiff Parkway - with no Bay platform for tram-train services. You surely can't just have a tram-train terminate on a through line that is used by freight trains? Perhaps they are planning to build a new line out to Cardiff Parkway?
Cardiff Parkway is a live project, with 4 platforms planned. That will go ahead whether or not the tram train project ever happens. The tram-train project is described as an "ongoing study", part of which will no doubt include provision for terminating services at Parkway, which as you suggest would sensibly include a further platform. So long as the current planned project retains space for a further platform, presumably to the south of the existing tracks, then I don't see the two are incompatible.

My recollection is that the relief lines are not intensely used, certainly not to the extent the main lines are, although I would expect this to increase once Parkway opens, as the four platforms seems a clear indication that more passenger services will be using them in future.
 

Envoy

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Edwin_m suggests that the Flirts are being used on the Rhymney Line because Coal trains use the same route. That being so, how can it therefore be OK to use the tram-trains on the relief lines between Cardiff and Newport for the Parkway station - which see quite a number of freight trains?
 

Brissle Girl

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If that assertion is correct, then it's a valid point. However, I thought that Flirts are being used as they provide the cross Cardiff connection for the Vale of Glamorgan service, which apparently would have been very unpopular if it was lost. Thus it is necessary for these services to have diesel power, and hence tram-trains weren't suitable. As I understand it trams share the national network on Tyneside including freight, so there isn't a complete ban on light rail sharing lines with freight services.
 

PHILIPE

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If that assertion is correct, then it's a valid point. However, I thought that Flirts are being used as they provide the cross Cardiff connection for the Vale of Glamorgan service, which apparently would have been very unpopular if it was lost. Thus it is necessary for these services to have diesel power, and hence tram-trains weren't suitable. As I understand it trams share the national network on Tyneside including freight, so there isn't a complete ban on light rail sharing lines with freight services.


Sunderland is such a location where the two tracks through the station are shared by both Tyne and Wear Metro and Heavy Rail
 

baza585

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Apparently not, they are available with diesel engines but the TfW units will only be battery-electric. Some of the Stadler Flirts are diesel electric only, some are trimodes (diesel electric, overhead lines and battery)
No great surprise that Drakeford hasn't got a clue........
 

willgreen

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As I understand it trams share the national network on Tyneside including freight, so there isn't a complete ban on light rail sharing lines with freight services.
The units on the T&W Metro are not trams; they're basically lighter trains, but they don't run on streets at all. A better comparison is the Sheffield Supertram, where the tram-trains there run on both streets in Sheffield and on heavy rail lines through Rotherham.
 

tiptoptaff

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Cardiff Parkway is a live project, with 4 platforms planned. That will go ahead whether or not the tram train project ever happens. The tram-train project is described as an "ongoing study", part of which will no doubt include provision for terminating services at Parkway, which as you suggest would sensibly include a further platform. So long as the current planned project retains space for a further platform, presumably to the south of the existing tracks, then I don't see the two are incompatible.

My recollection is that the relief lines are not intensely used, certainly not to the extent the main lines are, although I would expect this to increase once Parkway opens, as the four platforms seems a clear indication that more passenger services will be using them in future.
A further platform isn't necessarily needed, as a turnback siding could do the job, and there'd be space between the mains and reliefs, they'll need to be slewed to make space for the island platform anyway, so why buy extra land when you've got the space already.

I wouldn't be surprised if Cardiff Parkway goes over budget and/or gets cancelled. Can't imagine Network Rail are going to take kindly to having to take down the knitting so soon and put it back in a different place. One would assume they'll charge a premium for doing so
 

Tomos y Tanc

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I wouldn't be surprised if Cardiff Parkway goes over budget and/or gets cancelled. Can't imagine Network Rail are going to take kindly to having to take down the knitting so soon and put it back in a different place. One would assume they'll charge a premium for doing so

Well any project can go over-budget or get cancelled until it's actually built so those are always possibilities.

It's worth remembering though that the station is a small part of a much larger plan for the Hendre Lakes site. The developers could take quite a financial hit on the station given the increase in land values which would result from it. I'm not sure of the current planning status of the project but I should imagine that permission for the rest of the development is or will be dependant on the station being delivered.
 

Brissle Girl

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A further platform isn't necessarily needed, as a turnback siding could do the job, and there'd be space between the mains and reliefs, they'll need to be slewed to make space for the island platform anyway, so why buy extra land when you've got the space already.
A siding between the mains and reliefs would be operationally inconvenient, as you would then need to wait until both relief lines were clear before crossing over back onto the down relief line. The most sensible place for a turnback siding is in between the two relief lines, which removes any conflicts. However, if the service is relatively frequent then surely you want to try and minimise movements, so going straight into a dedicated platform and back out again would be more efficient. Even better if that is also between the two relief platforms, but unless that is being designed in now that would be too disruptive.,
 

tiptoptaff

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A siding between the mains and reliefs would be operationally inconvenient, as you would then need to wait until both relief lines were clear before crossing over back onto the down relief line. The most sensible place for a turnback siding is in between the two relief lines, which removes any conflicts. However, if the service is relatively frequent then surely you want to try and minimise movements, so going straight into a dedicated platform and back out again would be more efficient. Even better if that is also between the two relief platforms, but unless that is being designed in now that would be too disruptive.,
Turnback sidings aren't operationally inconvenient, it'll be planned so it fits. The best place for one isn't between the reliefs, as that would mean even more slewing of track and taking up extra space. Between the mains and reliefs it fits in to space that's already there.

They're used a lot at Maidenhead, Ealing and Twyford, where there's a much busier railway than the SWML reliefs will ever be
 

MarkyT

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As I understand it trams share the national network on Tyneside including freight, so there isn't a complete ban on light rail sharing lines with freight services.
The units on the T&W Metro are not trams; they're basically lighter trains, but they don't run on streets at all. A better comparison is the Sheffield Supertram, where the tram-trains there run on both streets in Sheffield and on heavy rail lines through Rotherham.
Although the original T&W Metrocars, built by Metro-Cammel, are not equipped with the lights, indicators and more comprehensive side skirting that could allow street running, they are otherwise based very closely on the German tram design known as 'Stadtbahnwagen Typ B', developed by Duewag and used, in large numbers, in Köln and Bonn, Essen, Dortmund, Düsseldorf, Duisburg, and Mülheim. From the point of view of crashworthiness for inter-running with mainline passenger rolling stock and freight on the Sunderland line, the vehicles were considered equivalent to trams, so extra protective measures were incorporated in signalling infrastructure and controls. Both TPWS and the Metro's own (German) Indusi-based protection systems were provided at each and every signal along the route, with overlap lengths and differential speed restrictions for the varying traffic types adjusted to reduce collision risk. As such, Sunderland can be seen as perhaps the first UK tram-train scheme, even if it was never referred to as such at the time.
 

Brissle Girl

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Turnback sidings aren't operationally inconvenient, it'll be planned so it fits. The best place for one isn't between the reliefs, as that would mean even more slewing of track and taking up extra space. Between the mains and reliefs it fits in to space that's already there.

They're used a lot at Maidenhead, Ealing and Twyford, where there's a much busier railway than the SWML reliefs will ever be
The one at Maidenhead, which is the one regularly used by a frequent metro-style service, is situated between the relief lines, which is the closest analogy to the likely use at Cardiff Parkway. The other two are barely used by passenger services in normal operation if I'm not mistaken, so I don't think they are at all relevant.

I'd agree though that slewing of track will add to the cost, although this is already going to happen as part of the construction of the station anyway, so if planned from the outset the additional cost is likely to be relatively small. However, given the trams will be short, that's why a bay to the south of the station would be the easiest in terms of minimal additional space, and the ability for a unit to turn around there in a straight in and out movement without the need to do an additional two movements or conflict with other users of the relief line.
 

edwin_m

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The Stadler tram-trains will also be sharing with the FLIRTs, and theoretically with freight too, between Queen Street and Central.

I'm assuming the tram-train will join the main line via the freight spur at Tremorfa to avoid street running. If this is correct then the Parkway site is a bit far (3.5 miles) to lay a fifth track - in fact it might need a passing loop depending on the tram-train frequency. So I'd expect it to join the reliefs with either a bay platform to the south of Parkway or a turnback between or alongside the reliefs to the east.
 

MarkyT

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I reckon that they could do it by having a platform where such a line could come off the Taff bridge and go the south side of platform 8. Photo 1 below shows where such a line would come across the Taff bridge whilst the other shows the view looking SE - with the new platform being roughly where the car is located - therefore on the south side of the western part of P8. Unfortunately Network Rail in their great wisdom went and plonked a new signal where such a line could go.
They better move it then lol
Moving a few signals would not be a great expense in the whole scheme I'd suggest. With the comparatively short trains planned, there's scope for moving signals on the metro lines further back from the platform ends to make room for a new junction with free overlap clearance. There was a junction on this site leading to a parcels platform in years gone by. I assume if necessary the PSB building can or already has been removed.
 

tiptoptaff

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Moving a few signals would not be a great expense in the whole scheme I'd suggest. With the comparatively short trains planned, there's scope for moving signals on the metro lines further back from the platform ends to make room for a new junction with free overlap clearance. There was a junction on this site leading to a parcels platform in years gone by. I assume if necessary the PSB building can or already has been removed.
The "old" platform 8 junction was the spur that used to be in front of the PSB (I believe)

It ran through the current P8, NR works depot and TfW messrooms and was slap in the middle of what is now the car park. It trundled off down Bute Road after that
 

daodao

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The "old" platform 8 junction was the spur that used to be in front of the PSB (I believe). It ran through the current P8, NR works depot and TfW messrooms and was slap in the middle of what is now the car park. It trundled off down Bute Road after that.
The southern-most platforms at Cardiff General station were designated as Cardiff Riverside station and used by the Barry Railway on services to Barry and Pontypridd/Porth via Creigiau, as well as the Taff Vale Railway for some services to Penarth (and Cadoxton via Sully). On weekdays (0800-1800) and Saturdays (0800-mid afternoon), these trains were generally extended via the Riverside branch to Clarence Road station, rather than Bute Road station (which was the main terminus of the Taff Vale Railway).
 
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tiptoptaff

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The southern-most platforms at Cardiff General station were designated as Cardiff Riverside station and used by the Barry Railway on services to Barry and Pontypridd/Porth via Creigiau, as well as the Taff Vale Railway for some services to Penarth (and Cadoxton via Sully). On weekdays (0800-1800) and Saturdays (0800-mid afternoon), these trains were generally extended via the Riverside branch to Clarence Road station, rather than Bute Road station (which was the main terminus of the Taff Vale Railway).
Thanks for the clarification! Couldn't quite remember
 

willgreen

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Although the original T&W Metrocars, built by Metro-Cammel, are not equipped with the lights, indicators and more comprehensive side skirting that could allow street running, they are otherwise based very closely on the German tram design known as 'Stadtbahnwagen Typ B', developed by Duewag and used, in large numbers, in Köln and Bonn, Essen, Dortmund, Düsseldorf, Duisburg, and Mülheim. From the point of view of crashworthiness for inter-running with mainline passenger rolling stock and freight on the Sunderland line, the vehicles were considered equivalent to trams, so extra protective measures were incorporated in signalling infrastructure and controls. Both TPWS and the Metro's own (German) Indusi-based protection systems were provided at each and every signal along the route, with overlap lengths and differential speed restrictions for the varying traffic types adjusted to reduce collision risk. As such, Sunderland can be seen as perhaps the first UK tram-train scheme, even if it was never referred to as such at the time.
Fair point - I personally wouldn't view them as tram-trains (since they don't run on any streets, at all) but I see your logic. The design is certainly derivative of trams, although you could probably say most forms of rail-based transport derive from each other in one way or another!
 

edwin_m

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The (current) Metrocar wouldn't be allowed to run in traffic or busy pedestrian areas because of the relatively poor view from the cab in any direction other than forwards. Even with thick pillars between the front windows they didn't meet the railway structural standards, so neither one thing or the other really. The Stadler tram-trains for Cardiff look better in this respect, but the design from the same company for T&W is different with much thicker corner pillars.
 

Domh245

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The Stadler tram-trains for Cardiff look better in this respect, but the design from the same company for T&W is different with much thicker corner pillars.

Same company now, but the Citylink (also running around in Sheffield) was originally a Vossloh product. The T&W units have more in common with the Merseyrail units than the citylinks and are part of Stadler's "metro" family rather than specific tramway vehicles
 

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