Southeastern HIGH SPEED loophole

[Poorcommuter]

Hi all,

hoping someone can help, I'm faced with renewing my extortionate high speed season ticket from Ramsgate to st.pancres, last year I managed to find a ticket loop hole and brought the ticket to Oxtead making the fair cheaper.

However southeastern have obviously wised up to this route and have removed, does anybody else know of any other routes that can help get the cost down?

 

[notadriver]

You could go by national express coach instead. Savings of around 50 percent.

 

[codenamecuebal]

what are you paying right now, and what will you be paying if you can't find an alternative?

 

[Deerfold]

You could go by national express coach instead. Savings of around 50 percent.

So long as you don't mind taking over twice as long and not being able to get there until around 0916.

I suspect as the OP specified travelling on HIGH SPEED 1 they may be a little more time sensitive.

 

[YorkC]

Not sure exactly how the HS1 restriction codes work, but Ramsgate to Ashurst Kent is routed "LONDON NOT UND" rather than "NOT VALID ON HS1".

 

[RJ]

Hi all,

hoping someone can help, I'm faced with renewing my extortionate high speed season ticket from Ramsgate to st.pancres, last year I managed to find a ticket loop hole and brought the ticket to Oxtead making the fair cheaper.

However southeastern have obviously wised up to this route and have removed, does anybody else know of any other routes that can help get the cost down?

There are quite a few loopholes on HS1 - these are mainly created by Southeastern's pricing policy failing to fully take into account the existing rules of ticketing. I was a Canterbury commuter and used valid fares that were less than half of what they would have liked me to pay.

Page 143 of the terms of their franchise agreement is quite clear in confirming the National Routeing Guide's position in relation to HS1 - however, Southeastern don't uphold this unilaterally. I haven't come across a single member of their staff who knows how to use the NRG, but have come across several who say it's irrelevant. You should excise caution when using "loopholes" on their services.

Poorcommuter, I suggest you familiarise yourself with the National Routeing Guide. It might be like an extra module of A Level Maths to learn, but it can be used to identify fares that undercut the price of the journey you are actually doing, thus saving you £££s annually. If you do find any loopholes, I suggest you keep them to yourself, as this forum is read by a number of people who have a vested interest in shutting any such loopholes!

Good luck

 

[yorkie]

Poorcommuter - I've enabled your PM facilitiy in case anyone wishes to divulge a loophole to you, as obviously any loophole revealed on here is likely to be removed promptly for obvious reasons!

 

[higthomas]

I have found a ticket that I think will reduce both dippo and Poorcommuter's season ticket price to £3,280.00. I am pretty certain it is valid, but you will have to be prepared to have a few almighty rows with guards as to its validity.
Would you like me to send it to you?

Also if anyone else can guess what it is, could you possibly confirm that I am right in thinking it is valid.

 

[RJ]

I have found a ticket that I think will reduce both dippo and Poorcommuter's season ticket price to £3,280.00. I am pretty certain it is valid, but you will have to be prepared to have a few almighty rows with guards as to its validity.
Would you like me to send it to you?

Also if anyone else can guess what it is, could you possibly confirm that I am right in thinking it is valid.

I've looked in the fares database and narrowed it down to 6,401 possibilities. Assuming Ramsgate is the origin, that narrows it down to 27 - and assuming you don't want to avoid London or go through Hastings, that narrows it down to 4... They are all permitted by the National Routeing Guide, but not corroborated by the journey planners.

 

[LexyBoy]

Poorcommuter - I've enabled your PM facilitiy in case anyone wishes to divulge a loophole to you, as obviously any loophole revealed on here is likely to be removed promptly for obvious reasons!

How do we know Poorcommuter isn't a SouthEastern spy?

We've all noticed how you haven't been at paranoia lessons recently...

 

[dippo]

Don't risk telling him ...lol....not until i have managed to get my ticket at least!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've looked in the fares database and narrowed it down to 6,401 possibilities. Assuming Ramsgate is the origin, that narrows it down to 27 - and assuming you don't want to avoid London or go through Hastings, that narrows it down to 4... They are all permitted by the National Routeing Guide, but not corroborated by the journey planners.

My start station is westgate on sea.....

 

[higthomas]

Don't risk telling him ...lol....not until i have managed to get my ticket at least!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


My start station is westgate on sea.....

The price is the same for both, but the hastle would be considerable

 

[tsr]

My start station is westgate on sea.....

There may well be a season ticket which involves starting short on a permitted route. Such would be OK. Unfortunately, I am not an expert on fares in that part of Kent (by any stretch of the imagination!), so I can only advise you to await any messages from others!

 

[dippo]

So let's say the ticket is valid but requires an argument every time I use it....would it not be possible to print off evidence to corroborate my ticket? Does it help to know that I travel up on same train all the time which gets into Cannon street before 7am making it an off peak leg...the return is 5:30 pm generally

 

[bb21]

So let's say the ticket is valid but requires an argument every time I use it....would it not be possible to print off evidence to corroborate my ticket? Does it help to know that I travel up on same train all the time which gets into Cannon street before 7am making it an off peak leg...the return is 5:30 pm generally

It may.

However some permitted routes may be the result of either routeing errors or may appear invalid for some other reason. Staff will still generally work off "reasonable routes" principles, and some will not be persuaded by whatever evidence you present. Most staff do not even know how to officially determine official permitted routes.

Unfortunately SouthEastern have a reputation in this respect, and not a good one. Cheap does not always mean best.

LexyBoy may be tongue-in-cheek, but his concerns are understandable. Plenty of people in the rail industry (of all grades) read this forum and it has happened in the past that a loophole inadvertently revealed was removed quite swiftly. Until someone becomes reasonably well established there is always a shadow of doubt hanging over some members' heads, but it is up to each individual member whether they wish to disclose a loophole ticket, and in whichever way they choose.

 

[dippo]

It may.

However some permitted routes may be the result of either routeing errors or may appear invalid for some other reason. Staff will still generally work off "reasonable routes" principles, and some will not be persuaded by whatever evidence you present. Most staff do not even know how to officially determine official permitted routes.

Unfortunately SouthEastern have a reputation in this respect, and not a good one. Cheap does not always mean best.

LexyBoy may be tongue-in-cheek, but his concerns are understandable. Plenty of people in the rail industry (of all grades) read this forum and it has happened in the past that a loophole inadvertently revealed was removed quite swiftly. Until someone becomes reasonably well established there is always a shadow of doubt hanging over some members' heads, but it is up to each individual member whether they wish to disclose a loophole ticket, and in whichever way they choose.

I can understand that people would doubt a newbie....I have only got until friday to get new ticket though...doh!!!! not sure how i can prove that i am not a spy though?

 

[bb21]

I can understand that people would doubt a newbie....I have only got until friday to get new ticket though...doh!!!! not sure how i can prove that i am not a spy though?

There is not a lot you can do in that respect, unfortunately. If someone is willing to disclose a loophole to you, they will likely send you a PM.

In fact, this example illustrates quite aptly how they are bringing in changes very quickly indeed (regardless of whether the proper process has been sought) on any loophole revealed. In this case, around 24 hours.

AFAIK, plenty of loopholes exist in the SouthEastern area (although I am not sure what they are), however I think recent developments are making some people very vigilant in this respect indeed.

 

[Poorcommuter]

Hi all,

Thanks for your help, yes please send through! Oh don't worry im not afraid of standing my ground at the barriers!

p.s dippo 'He' is not a spy...'He' is a she

 

[Deerfold]

Hi all,

Thanks for your help, yes please send through! Oh don't worry im not afraid of standing my ground at the barriers!

p.s dippo 'He' is not a spy...'He' is a she

Is she a spy?

 

[Clip]

I can understand that people would doubt a newbie....I have only got until friday to get new ticket though...doh!!!! not sure how i can prove that i am not a spy though?

Bake us a nice big chocolate cake.

 

[Yew]

Bake us a nice big chocolate cake.

Seconded!

 

[dippo]

oooops sorry, you sound so gruff?!?!?! you must smoke alot

 

[RJ]

Hi all,

Thanks for your help, yes please send through! Oh don't worry im not afraid of standing my ground at the barriers!

p.s dippo 'He' is not a spy...'He' is a she

Poorcommuter and dippo,

Good luck with it - I was using loopholes for quite some time when commuting between St Pancras and Canterbury. I used to post the stories on here - Southeastern's reactions ranged from issuing Penalty Fares with no legal basis and detaining me for long periods of time at stations, to putting in malicious false allegations of fare evasion to the police and embarking on physically impossible missions to drag me off trains.

The common theme was that I presented a valid ticket they didn't like and I refused to pay for another on that basis. For this reason alone, they've failed to get anything to stick. I can see straight through morons who want to encourage some other illegal action to take place so they can "win," after being wrong about their initial accusation.

The way the back office staff and management handle matters has been questionable - I've read hundreds of pages of their internal emails and correspondence - they don't know how to handle customers who understand the Conditions of Carriage and National Routeing Guide, because few, if any people in their organisation do. What isn't funny is the way they've likely breached the Data Protection Act in relation to these fare dispute matters.

As I say, good luck with it all! Having read what I've had to say about how they might deal with the use of loopholes, feel free to PM me if you still want some money saving tips

 

[infobleep]

Poorcommuter and dippo,

Good luck with it - I was using loopholes for quite some time when commuting between St Pancras and Canterbury. I used to post the stories on here - Southeastern's reactions ranged from issuing Penalty Fares with no legal basis and detaining me for long periods of time at stations, to putting in malicious false allegations of fare evasion to the police and embarking on physically impossible missions to drag me off trains.

The common theme was that I presented a valid ticket they didn't like and I refused to pay for another on that basis. For this reason alone, they've failed to get anything to stick. I can see straight through morons who want to encourage some other illegal action to take place so they can "win," after being wrong about their initial accusation.

The way the back office staff and management handle matters has been questionable - I've read hundreds of pages of their internal emails and correspondence - they don't know how to handle customers who understand the Conditions of Carriage and National Routeing Guide, because few, if any people in their organisation do. What isn't funny is the way they've likely breached the Data Protection Act in relation to these fare dispute matters.

As I say, good luck with it all! Having read what I've had to say about how they might deal with the use of loopholes, feel free to PM me if you still want some money saving tips

So did you take them to task over their data protection breaches? Surely the information commissioner would be interested in such things.

 

[Deerfold]

So did you take them to task over their data protection breeches? Surely the information commissioner would be interested in such things.

RJ informed the information commissioner (assuming you mean "breaches" and aren't actually talking about trousers).

 

[infobleep]

RJ informed the information commissioner (assuming you mean "breaches" and aren't actually talking about trousers).

Yes. Corrected the mistake. So what did the information commissioner do? I thought they took breaches very seriously, given the stuff I heat now and again about local authorities being fined.

 

[tony_mac]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1771216&postcount=130

we have decided that it is unlikely that Southeastern has complied with the requirements of the DPA in this case....

However, based on the information provided in relation to this complaint, the Information Commissioner has decided that further regulatory action is not required at this time.

 

[Busaholic]

The Association of Train Operating Companies have as their maxim 'Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive' (with thanks to Sir Walter Scott in this momentous week for Scotland). The amount of harassment and bullying over people exercising their rights on train tickets ( even when they may not be 100% right) is incredible. The only way forward is to scrap all this and adopt the old SNCF policy of x francs per km single journey, plus 50% for a return, add 50% for Ist Class and a discount for children and pensioners, and THAT IS IT. Everyone knows where they are and people will quickly learn the most crowded lines/trains and, with everyone paying the same amount as with petrol in cars government will know where to build new lines and companies will know when and where to put on more trains as all subsidies directly to them will end. Simplistic? - obviously, but a darned sight better than the increasingly ludicrous position we've got ourselves into now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So did you take them to task over their data protection breaches? Surely the information commissioner would be interested in such things.

Evidently 'should' rather than 'would'.

 

[455driver]

The only way forward is to scrap all this and adopt the old SNCF policy of x francs per km single journey, plus 50% for a return, add 50% for Ist Class and a discount for children and pensioners, and THAT IS IT.

So you want to close all the lines South West of Plymouth, most of the Welsh valley lines, many of Northern rails services and quite a bit of Scotlands railways then do you?

 

[Hadders]

Mileage based pricing crops up every so often, it won't work. When it last came up yorkie posed the following questions:

1) Please give me the proposed fares from York to Whitby for a day return, avoiding Darlington, and tell me how this fare is calculated and whether you think it will be competetive with the coach service provided by Coastliner that costs only slightly more than the current rail ticket price but offers a shorter journey time?

2) Please give me the proposed fares from York to London for a day return, and if this is lower than current prices, tell me where the revenue will be brought in to compensate EC for the revenue loss?

3) Please give me the proposed fares from Peterborough to Leicester, and also Leicester to Nottingham, and let me know how you are calculating the mileage and whether under your system it will be permitted to travel from Peterborough to Nottingham via Leicester or not, and if someone does go via Leicester what excess will be charged (if any)?