Southeastern High Speed Upgrades

[bgstrowger]

Does anyone know why I can't use my Gold Card to get money off when buying a High Speed upgrade?

I know it's only a small amount, but it's the principle really, given how much my season ticket is.

 

[philjo]

What ticket are you wanting to buy with the Gold Card Discount?

The gold Card discount cannot be obtained before 10am on weekdays or for season tickets

 

[yorkie]

The official rules for change of route are that an excess fare should be charged, and my understanding of the 'upgrades' is that they are a far easier way of dealing with the problem than issuing a change of route excess... now, I have no problem with that providing it does not cause passengers to pay more than they should have to pay.

Therefore I'd be interested in knowing exactly what ticket you hold, so I can calculate the cost of a 'traditional' excess, and if you can tell me what price you are asked to pay and details of when you are travelling, I will then see if you are being overcharged.

 

[LexyBoy]

Does anyone know why I can't use my Gold Card to get money off when buying a High Speed upgrade?

I know it's only a small amount, but it's the principle really, given how much my season ticket is.

I think the answer may be that you just can't. If there's no GC discount available, then that's Southeastern's decision, and there's no obligation for them to offer it.

Yorkie's point about comparing the price with a normal excess are valid for single/return tickets, but I don't think it would apply if you are "upgrading" a journey covered by your season, as you can't excess a single journey in the same way. (You could of course change the season to be valid on HS1 if you use it frequently enough).

 

[LondonJohn]

Does anyone know why I can't use my Gold Card to get money off when buying a High Speed upgrade?

I know it's only a small amount, but it's the principle really, given how much my season ticket is.

I thought you could.. When I was travelling on the infamous Calais Day Trip fare the Train Manager said that my ticket was not valid on HS1. He said he wasn't going to do anything about it when I showed him something that would indicate it was valid but went away to check.

He was unable to conclusively determine if the ticket was valid and then he said to me is all you have to do if it turns out not to be valid is buy a HS supplement which will only be a few ££ as it will be discounted with your Gold Card.

 

[island]

Does anyone know why I can't use my Gold Card to get money off when buying a High Speed upgrade?

I know it's only a small amount, but it's the principle really, given how much my season ticket is.

I think whoever told you you can't use it is wrong. The "upgrade" price from Whitstable to London is £2.20 single, £2.20 day return after 0930, and £3.10 day return before 0930. All after discount.

 

[Barn]

I've found that the gold card option is not available at all on the machines at St Pancras and Stratford Intl, although the ticket offices issued discounted HS1 tickets without issue. Not sure if this is still a problem?

 

[island]

Not all tickets are sold from vending machines.

 

[bgstrowger]

I think whoever told you you can't use it is wrong. The "upgrade" price from Whitstable to London is £2.20 single, £2.20 day return after 0930, and £3.10 day return before 0930. All after discount.

This was at the ticket machines at STP and the Gold Card option when buying an upgrade has always been grayed out. This has also been the case when buying an upgrade at the ticket office at WHI.

Funnily enough, I was able to get the 1/3 off when I bought a ticket back to WHI for my girlfriend.

 

[First class]

Just to supplement discussion here:

Issuing supplements

Supplement tickets should be issued as follows.

Check whether the passenger already holds a ticket valid for travel on High Speed services. For standard class tickets, there are two scenarios:

1) - Check if the ticket already held is a First Class ticket. If so, then a supplement will not be required unless the ticket holder wishes to backtrack. If this is the case then a further ticket is required. The following is applicable if no First Class supplement is available in systems.

First Class ticket holders, who wish to backtrack to travel on the High Speed, will require an additional First Class ticket from their origin station to the appropriate High Speed interchange station (i.e. Ashford International or Gravesend for Ebbsfleet International).

For Example:

A customer wishing to travel from Tonbridge to London via the High Speed who already holds a First Class ticket routed ‘not valid on HS1’ can upgrade by purchasing a First Class Tonbridge to Ashford International ticket.

2) - Check if there are supplement fares shown in the TIS for the journey being made. If the supplements for that journey are not in the TIS, then issue the supplement to/from Ashford International or Ebbsfleet International as specified in Table A.

Supplements should always be issued for travel to/from London St Pancras or Stratford International, depending on where the journey leaves the High Speed service at the London end. At the Kent end the supplement should match the origin/destination on the passenger’s original ticket.

If the passenger already holds an out boundary Travelcard, ensure that it covers all Zones 1-6. Travelcards for other Zones cannot be used to purchase supplements.

To determine the correct ticket type to issue, check whether the passenger will require a single, anytime day return, or off peak day supplement for the journey(s) that they wish to make on the High Speed Service. Ensure that the passenger’s existing ticket covers both the period of validity (e.g. a period return) and the time of day that they wish to purchase a supplement for. Valid combinations are detailed below - click here.

For the avoidance of doubt, supplements must not be issued unless the passenger already holds a valid travel ticket.

Tickets to or from London Terminals which display the 'Any Permitted' route do not entitle you to travel on High Speed services.

However, tickets issued over longer distances e.g. York to Dover etc. which display the 'Any Permitted' route are valid on High Speed services.

Further information on bus links and car parking at Ebbsfleet International is included below.

Station NLCs/CRS codes are London St Pancras International (1555/STP), Ebbsfleet International (5566/EBD), Ashford International (5004/AFK) and Stratford International (7222/SFA).

Back to top
Railcards and discounts

Railcard discounts are valid on both the walk-up fares and the supplements with Disabled, Family & Friends, Senior, 16-25, Network Railcard and Forces railcards. Normal minimum fare rules apply.

Network Gold Card is not valid for discounts on ANY upgrade ticket.

Job Centre Plus is NOT valid on any High Speed service.

Groupsave discounts are also available on off-peak tickets – namely ODT and CDR.

Travel Agents Discounts are not available on High Speed services.

PAYG, Freedom Pass, and Metropolitan Police and City Police Warrant Cards are not valid on any HS1 service. Travelcard is not valid between Stratford International and St Pancras.

Earlybird Season Tickets are NOT valid on High Speed Services. See separate HS Staff Travel brief for further details.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

So, pretty clear that:

Network Gold Card is not valid for discounts on ANY upgrade ticket.

 

[island]

This was at the ticket machines at STP and the Gold Card option when buying an upgrade has always been grayed out. This has also been the case when buying an upgrade at the ticket office at WHI.

Don't suppose it was before 10am? I don't think the text LM__ posted can be considered enforceable as it is not public.

 

[First class]

Don't suppose it was before 10am? I don't think the text LM__ posted can be considered enforceable as it is not public.

I suspect that SouthEastern would allow this to get to court if a Penalty Fare was refused. I'd be confident SE would prevail.

SE advertise what limited discounts are permitted http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/tickets-and-fares/ticket-types/high-speed-tickets/.

Single and Return supplement tickets are available from station ticket offices, TVMs and Avantix Mobile and must be purchased before the passenger boards the train otherwise they may be liable to a Penalty Fare. At no time can these be issued alone. Evidence of another ticket routed “Not Valid On HS1” is always required before these supplements are issued.

 

[starfury]

I've found that the gold card option is not available at all on the machines at St Pancras and Stratford Intl, although the ticket offices issued discounted HS1 tickets without issue. Not sure if this is still a problem?

I had this problem. It's only an issue at the EMT machines; pop upstairs and the SER machines will happily provide a ticked with a GC discount.

I have had problems with Boundary Zone tickets. Due to the way the HS1 domestic fares are structured, Boundary Zone tickets aren't valid. The EMT ticket office refused to sell me one (even if I wanted to purchase a ticket at St Pancras and take the mainline from Victoria, or if I wanted to excess one half of a return journey only).

Hopefully this silly 'travelcards not accepted' thing will go away with the next franchise (if not sooner).

 

[Mike395]

I can see the restriction going after the Olympics if Im honest

 

[bb21]

I suspect that SouthEastern would allow this to get to court if a Penalty Fare was refused. I'd be confident SE would prevail.

Penalty fares cannot be issued to passengers who are off-route.

 

[First class]

Penalty fares cannot be issued to passengers who are off-route.

Well someone will have to tell SouthEastern that! One of their biggest earners. What rule prohibits a Penalty Fare by the way?

I don't think "off route" is the appropriate description for not possessing the supplement.

It complies with Section 7 of the Penalty Fare Rules as far as I can see. The Penalty Fares Policy document is not the authority, the finalised Penalty Fare Rules are.

If you're relying on 7.6 (Published restriction), the Rules make clear this is only as described by Condition 12 NRCoC. Condition 12 relates to Time/day restrictions.

The condition relating to routeing is 13 which the Penalty Fare Rules do not mention.

 

[LexyBoy]

Well someone will have to tell SouthEastern that! One of their biggest earners. What rule prohibits a Penalty Fare by the way?

NRCoC condition 13 does surely?

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide (details as to how you can obtain this information will be available when you buy your ticket).
(b) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within the zone or zones shown on the ticket.
(c) Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the “permitted routes”.
(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.
(e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route.
(f) For the purposes of this Condition, a “through train” is one which may be used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains.

No mention of Penalty Fares, nor any mention of Condition 4 (covering Penalty Fares). Condition 4 covers many circumstances in which a PF may be charged, but Condition 13 is not among them:

(c) you travel in a train and the circumstances set out in any of Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply; or

I don't think "off route" is the appropriate description for not possessing the supplement.

"Off route" is appropriate for travelling on a route other than that described in 13(a) or (b) as above; i.e. by a route not permitted by the routeing of the ticket. The supplement is simply a proxy for an excess fare, since excessing so many tickets wouldn't be practical.

If SouthEastern are to continue PFing passengers on HS1, they'll be wanting to spin out HighSpeed as a separate TOC (à la GatEx

), then they'd allowed to dish out PFs - with the added benefit of being able to do so even off HS1!

 

[paul1609]

NRCoC condition 13 does surely?



No mention of Penalty Fares, nor any mention of Condition 4 (covering Penalty Fares). Condition 4 covers many circumstances in which a PF may be charged, but Condition 13 is not among them:




"Off route" is appropriate for travelling on a route other than that described in 13(a) or (b) as above; i.e. by a route not permitted by the routeing of the ticket. The supplement is simply a proxy for an excess fare, since excessing so many tickets wouldn't be practical.

If SouthEastern are to continue PFing passengers on HS1, they'll be wanting to spin out HighSpeed as a separate TOC (à la GatEx

), then they'd allowed to dish out PFs - with the added benefit of being able to do so even off HS1!

Surely the HS case is not being off route since the not hs1 ticket would not be valid to St Pancras unless it was issued as a travelcard?
In fairness to Southeastern I travel on HS1 a fair bit and Ive never seen an RPI on board or a penalty fare issued. The announcement Northbound at Ashford is fairly specific as to what is and isnt valid and the train managers seem happy to sell the supplement.
I'd suggest that the economics of the Southeastern franchise are such that unless TFL are willing to pay a whacking great subsidy there is unlikley to be any relaxation of the travelcard rules.

 

[LexyBoy]

Surely the HS case is not being off route since the not hs1 ticket would not be valid to St Pancras unless it was issued as a travelcard?

If the ticket is to a named London station then that's a good point. If it's to London Terminals then St Pancras would be valid per a mapped and/or direct route.

 

[paul1609]

If the ticket is to a named London station then that's a good point. If it's to London Terminals then St Pancras would be valid per a mapped and/or direct route.

Not from South of London, you need a ticket specifically to St Pancras or to London U1. THe furthest you can travel on the Thameslink route with a London Terminals Ticket is City Thameslink. I dont think that HS1 has added St Pancras as a London Terminal for route "not HS1" tickets and yes from Ashford there are a couple of direct trains via Thameslink.

 

[John @ home]

London Terminals - Ashford International has a mapped Permitted Route between London St Pancras and Ashford International by map HS.

This route may be used without additional payment by valid tickets routed "via Any Permitted" (e.g. Edinburgh - Ashford International route + Any Permitted) or "Plus High Speed" (e.g. London Terminals - Ashford International route Plus High Speed).

Other tickets valid between London Terminals and Ashford International (e.g. London Terminals - Ashford International route Not Valid on HS1 or London Terminals - Ashford International route via Haywards Heath) may be used on the Permitted Route shown on map HS upon payment of an excess fare in accordance with NRCoC Condition 13(e).

I can therefore see no way that a Penalty Fare could be sustained if issued to someone travelling by HS1 with a ticket valid in all respects except the route, and I'm inclined to think that the assertion by LM__ in this post that Penalty Fares issued to passengers who are off-route are "one of [SouthEastern's] biggest earners" is wide of the mark. No such cases have been reported on this forum.

 

[LexyBoy]

Not from South of London, you need a ticket specifically to St Pancras or to London U1. THe furthest you can travel on the Thameslink route with a London Terminals Ticket is City Thameslink. I dont think that HS1 has added St Pancras as a London Terminal for route "not HS1" tickets and yes from Ashford there are a couple of direct trains via Thameslink.

As John has said, St Pancras to Kentish stations has a mapped route via HS1. Passing Farringdon isn't permitted on London Terminals tickets, which is why a St Pancras ticket is needed to travel via the Thameslink route, but the HS1 route doesn't pass Farringdon (likewise, Blackfriars isn't a valid London Terminal if travelling via HS1).

 

[paul1609]

London Terminals - Ashford International has a mapped Permitted Route between London St Pancras and Ashford International by map HS.

This route may be used without additional payment by valid tickets routed "via Any Permitted" (e.g. Edinburgh - Ashford International route + Any Permitted) or "Plus High Speed" (e.g. London Terminals - Ashford International route Plus High Speed).

Other tickets valid between London Terminals and Ashford International (e.g. London Terminals - Ashford International route Not Valid on HS1 or London Terminals - Ashford International route via Haywards Heath) may be used on the Permitted Route shown on map HS upon payment of an excess fare in accordance with NRCoC Condition 13(e).

I can therefore see no way that a Penalty Fare could be sustained if issued to someone travelling by HS1 with a ticket valid in all respects except the route, and I'm inclined to think that the assertion by LM__ in this post that Penalty Fares issued to passengers who are off-route are "one of [SouthEastern's] biggest earners" is wide of the mark. No such cases have been reported on this forum.

In my experience the barriers at St Pancras are always operational and are programmed to reject any not hs1 or +any permitted tickets as seek assistance. I dont really see how many people with invalid tickets would be on the train to be penalty fared anyway.

From the South Super Off Peak tickets are not available to London Terminals only London Charing Cross or London Victoria, these tickets presumably arent upgradeable and may be the issue?