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Southeastern problems post timetable change
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WizCastro197
Established Member
When there are Hastings diverts, via Redhill and Croydon, do they change driver at either of these stations (Redhill, E.Croydon), as they terminate normally on Platform 10 I think. (I may well be incorrect).
No they tend to terminate on the Up Platforms, either 8 or 9.
Yep. Seems to be something or other every day.
A slimmed down timetable and enforced changes now do seem to be causing issues with recovery and management from issues.
Which is odd because a slimmed down timetable tends to make service recovery easier generally as there is more capacity and less knock on impacts. That or the timetable was adjusted in a haphazard way but, given that it coincided with a national timetable change, I doubt it was.
Peregrine 4903
Established Member
The timetable isn't slimmed down in the peaks. I don't get why people don't understand that. And it's the same as May off peak in terms of service levels.
uglymonkey
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They have retimed my connection at London Bridge so my usual train misses it by 2 minutes! Meaning I have to get up 1/2 hour early for an earlier one ! Thanks !!!
Travelled Wadhurst to London Bridge the other day. Train was due to attach to 4 carriages at Tunbridge Wells but there were problems with this and opening the doors, rectifying it seemed to include turning the train 'off and on' with us being pitched into pitch black with no warning in the tunnel. A member of staff said that attaching trains at Tunbridge Wells was historically an issue due to several carriages being in a tunnel, and that it had only been re-introduced with the new timetable.
We were delay by 20 mins and the train was terminated at Tombridge. The empty stock sat there for a further 20 mins delaying the service behind, which was in turn delayed by 20 mins and diverted into Cannon Street. I was over 40 mins late on an hour-long journey in the end.
We were delay by 20 mins and the train was terminated at Tombridge. The empty stock sat there for a further 20 mins delaying the service behind, which was in turn delayed by 20 mins and diverted into Cannon Street. I was over 40 mins late on an hour-long journey in the end.
theageofthetra
On Moderation
It's due to the curvature of the platforms. It's why attachments were stopped there a few years back. Similarly at Cannon St. Idiotic it's been reintroduced
Not a Trespasser unfortunately.
It has been for much of the day, though. The peak trains for some have also been slowed eg the ex Sevenoaks Ch+ stoppers all go via Lewisham rather than direct from HGR - LBG.
Overall it’s a significantly less comprehensive all day timetable on the Dartford lines, in particular, as noted above. I don’t agree with the comments suggesting it is fundamentally flawed, or attributing the infrastructure delays to it, but the criticisms are valid.
Sorry to hear. ‘Tis the season
Sorry to hear. ‘Tis the season
Not as bad as that but along those lines. Tis the season for sure.
Lots of people out there need help and some do silly things. Hopefully the person involved gets the support they need.
Peregrine 4903
Established Member
May timetable there were 4tph off peak on Bexleyheath line, 6tph off peak on Charlton line and 4tph off peak on Sidcup line which is the same as current timetable. In fact there are now 6tph between Dartford and Gravesend compared to the 4tph in May. Where is the cut?It has been for much of the day, though. The peak trains for some have also been slowed eg the ex Sevenoaks Ch+ stoppers all go via Lewisham rather than direct from HGR - LBG.
Overall it’s a significantly less comprehensive all day timetable on the Dartford lines, in particular, as noted above. I don’t agree with the comments suggesting it is fundamentally flawed, or attributing the infrastructure delays to it, but the criticisms are valid.
Sorry to hear. ‘Tis the season
Were those Hansard extracts upthread incorrect?
87015
Established Member
With the same gaps, or are you being deliberately obtuse behind paper stats rather than reality? What was Dec 19?
WizCastro197
Established Member
I assume delay repay has been filed?
On my list to do…
That's what Southeastern said it was online - it's also what Southeastern MD said it was on Twitter - https://twitter.com/SteveWhiteRail/status/1618348205011521537
Anyway after the Hither Green incident, the "review" being referred to is severe overcrowding at London Bridge with risks of a crush. The amended timetable - no doubt somewhat dictated by the DfT - can't be helping and there's a few too many reports of overcrowding / delays / issues to just be plain bad luck but also I think you need to ask questions about how the platforms were able to get that busy without the station operator (Network Rail in this instance) implementing some more stringent crowd control. You should let people congegrate on the concourse and restrict access elsewhere, especially to platforms. That's crowd control 101
fusionblue
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The design at London Bridge for all the Southeastern platforms - particularly with train placements and stop markers - mean people bunch up and stop walking as soon as they reach the top of the escalator. The 8 car markers mean everyone bunch around the front doors (down end) and block the escalator, and the 10 car do the same at the up end. Meanwhile there is a LOT of unused "air space" above the escalators that potentially could have been platform space.
The original intended design for passenger flows was that people stayed downstairs until their train was on screen (and downstairs would remove the current train early to avoid rushing), but in reality people just go down one escalator and straight back up the other making the downstairs area largely pointless as a "waiting room".
They've had 4 years to notice this behaviour, so this shouldnt be a recent development.
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@ComUtoR is in a position to know better than the reports, to be fair.
Virtually no “real people” who use the new London Bridge, versus the old version, think the new one is any worse !!!
Albeit the platforms are too narrow, during overcrowding scenarios, at the new version of the station.
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I'm not sure if its available on Youtube but there was a fly on the wall documentary on British Rail in the London Bridge area in the early 80s. One incident included footage from the old ramps off of the high level platforms the crush was much worse then anything seen on Twitter in the last couple of days including one friendly passenger assaulting the platform bert who was trying to close a platform gate to control the crowd.
uglymonkey
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They seem to delight in timetabling 2 trains to arrive exactly at the same time to the second on opposing platforms (say 5 & 6) and disgourge 2 full train loads to walk down the stairs and the escalator ( if its working) someone's going to fall one day and we will all go down in a pile like dominos.
The platforms are to narrow especially beside the escalators. It's also made narrower by the posters and handrails, making people stand further towards the edge. I've seen people " brushed" by trains as they come in.
The platforms are to narrow especially beside the escalators. It's also made narrower by the posters and handrails, making people stand further towards the edge. I've seen people " brushed" by trains as they come in.
BBC article about London Bridge
www.bbc.co.uk
'Dangerous' overcrowding for commuters at London Bridge
Commuters at London Bridge station were reportedly having panic attacks due to the "dangerous" situation.
www.bbc.co.uk
Better than the MD?
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Indeed and the government amended timetables because nobody uses the railway any more… One issue I imagine can’t help in a disruptive scenario is more changing at London Bridge for the terminal you need. I personally have no issue with the interchange and have done it loads, but it does inevitably increase footfall.
Almost certainly Old, Dirty and Late (a phrase that also applies to some train drivers I know
).Possibly…
As I alluded to above something I’ve felt since it opened is that the Thameslink platforms, in particular, are rather too narrow. Unfortunately that was an inevitable result of squeezing more platforms into the footprint of the original station.
5&6 are not opposing platforms.
The only islands where trains can arrive at the same time in opposing platforms under normal service are 4&5 (Thameslink) and 2&3, and then only in the PM peak.
With 90 second dwell times and 2-3 minute headways, Id love to hear how it’s possible to timetable trains not to be there concurrently.
Most of the platforms are the same width. And there’s the same number as before the rebuild (15; previously there were 16 lines with 15 platforms). The issue is that to improve accessibility (through the provision of escalators to all the platforms and lifts to the through platforms) means that the middle of each platform is taken up with that, leaving less space to wait. However that’s why the station has canopies to the end of each platform, and the escalators face ‘outwards’ at the top, to nudge passengers away from that part of the platform.
On the Greenwich line for example the slimmed down timetable now sees near enough half hour gaps between trains even in the peak so people build up on London Bridge platforms. This causes congestion and slow boarding for other services as people jostle and try to get through crowds.
Add in people being forced to change in addition to longer service gaps and problems arise. Similar seems to be happening at Lewisham - where thousands of new homes and residents are adding to the mix.
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Yes it has. Before Dec 2022 Greenwich line had 4 SE trains per hour in the peak. It now has 2. They're timed to depart at exactly the same time as 2 TL trains which compounds the problem.
Go look at the timetable pre Dec 2022 and look at the existing. It *is* slimmed down.
And of course its far less trains generally compared to the pre 2020 timetable. The level of crowding seen even on days with no external issues shows the Dec timetable should have been working back towards pre covid levels and not further reductions.
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