Southeastern problems post timetable change

[Bald Rick]

on my occasional uses of it

Go a bit more often, and it will be easier

 

[Taunton]

But I wouldn't blame Southeastern for that. There is no money to run the pre-covid timetable.

One thing I never get with such situations is that there can be vast crowds in stations, each and every one of whom have paid their (by world standards) substantial fares, yet apparently there is then also no money available to provide an appropriate service for them.

Where does it go?

 

[Bald Rick]

One thing I never get with such situations is that there can be vast crowds in stations, each and every one of whom have paid their (by world standards) substantial fares, yet apparently there is then also no money available to provide an appropriate service for them.

Where does it go?

Thats a much bigger question than this thread is designed to cope with!

 

[Taunton]

Thats a much bigger question than this thread is designed to cope with!

I'm a simplistic soul!

But can you imagine huge crowds waiting at McDonalds, all of whom have prepaid for their ordered items, only to then be told that they don't have any money to buy supplies?

 

[Stephen42]

Anecdotally, the trains are definitely busier this month than in October or November. The 08.53 and 09.23 Grove Park to Cannon St are often full at the front and only a few seats at the back - whereas pre January, I could sometimes get 2 seats to myself. The evening trains are rammed leaving Cannon St. The trains from CHX which connect with the Bromley North shuttles are standing room only arriving at London Bridge - again, I could get a seat in November. Then again, there are less trains now - 4tph to Orpington now, vs 6tph pre December - the 2tph peak extras were axed in the new timetable. They need to come back.

There were 6tph in the morning peak hour from the start of the new timetable, the extras go to Charing Cross skipping Lewisham. From looking at it the timetable is based on off peak with focused extras rather than the old timetable which had a different timetable for the peak period for several hours. Now many of the extras are focused on the busiest hour with several being morning only. It makes some sense as an approach, many of the extras towards the shoulders weren't that busy, the last one I was on the old timetable I had 4 seats to myself with the 6 adjacent also empty throughout. The issue being that demand may have grown (as well as taking time for people to shift to the trains which are less busy).

There's extras from Cannon Street 17:36 and 18:05 to Orpington on days with service next week fast from London Bridge to Hither Green. I wouldn't be surprised if over subsequent iterations more services are added back in, but it is going to be heavily tailored to demand to avoid unnecessary subsidy.

 

[Roast Veg]

I'm a simplistic soul!

But can you imagine huge crowds waiting at McDonalds, all of whom have prepaid for their ordered items, only to then be told that they don't have any money to buy supplies?

This still labours under the assumption that the railway is purely a private enterprise, and not a public service.

 

[zwk500]

I'm a simplistic soul!

But can you imagine huge crowds waiting at McDonalds, all of whom have prepaid for their ordered items, only to then be told that they don't have any money to buy supplies?

It would hardly be the first time a shop has been unable to fulfill orders or an airline/hotel to honour bookings, would it?

However the reasons for the industry being very expensive to run are not comparable to a single business, particularly one that has not had a significant amount of fiddling/meddling from elected people.

 

[Minstral25]

One thing I never get with such situations is that there can be vast crowds in stations, each and every one of whom have paid their (by world standards) substantial fares, yet apparently there is then also no money available to provide an appropriate service for them.

Where does it go?

Probably not for this thread but it's paying for the £16bn they spent in COVID which cost a packet by insisting very train still ran even though there were no passengers, now there are passengers they want to cut costs. Incompetent Government basically.

 

[JonathanH]

One thing I never get with such situations is that there can be vast crowds in stations, each and every one of whom have paid their (by world standards) substantial fares, yet apparently there is then also no money available to provide an appropriate service for them.

Where does it go?

Isn't the problem that the vast crowds are not paying substantial fares, because the long distance commuters who used to provide volume of substantial fares are no longer cross subsiding the volume of passengers travelling from the inner area who are paying practically nothing (in railway terms)?

People paying £6.60 a day to travel from Lewisham to Charing Cross or Cannon Street must barely make a scratch on the costs of running the services.

 

[zwk500]

One thing I never get with such situations is that there can be vast crowds in stations, each and every one of whom have paid their (by world standards) substantial fares, yet apparently there is then also no money available to provide an appropriate service for them.

Where does it go?

A large part of it has gone on funding an ideological crusade of an industrial dispute. Only time will tell in the long run whether that was worth it or not.

 

[PGAT]

I also assume SouthEastern want to be saving up for a new fleet to replace the networkers

 

[ComUtoR]

I thought it went on staff wages. That's what the newspapers told me

 

[island]

As a fairly regular Southeastern user I've generally been happy with the new timetable. One of my common trips, Tonbridge to Lewisham, featured a 4 minute change at Orpington from platform 2 to platform 8 under the old timetable. The first train was inevitably 2-3 minutes late leaving Tonbridge and a mad dash ensued to make the local train, which I quite regularly missed and had to wait half an hour.

Now, the change is 6 minutes cross-platform at Sevenoaks, which is much better for me, excepting the reduction in the amount of DelayRepay claimed.

 

[PringlePopper1]

ISTR 7 or 8 minutes minimum turnround in the rules for SE at 10/12 cars. Drivers can probably do it a bit quicker if they're minded to, or if there's a 2nd driver ready to take over.

Just to butt in here, drivers right from the school through to going into their ICA with a DM, are told no matter how late into a the terminus station they arrive, that they take the full amount of time to change ends, be it 5 mins for a 4 car, 7 mins for an 8 car or 9 mins for a 12 - purely because if you were unfortunate enough to have an incident upon your return journey and the download shows you hadn’t taken the full time to change ends, the finger is pointed at you for not taking the correct amount of time.

 

[zwk500]

Just to butt in here, drivers right from the school through to going into their ICA with a DM, are told no matter how late into a the terminus station they arrive, that they take the full amount of time to change ends, be it 5 mins for a 4 car, 7 mins for an 8 car or 9 mins for a 12 - purely because if you were unfortunate enough to have an incident upon your return journey and the download shows you hadn’t taken the full time to change ends, the finger is pointed at you for not taking the correct amount of time.

This is understandable from a driver's point of view, but frustrating form a passenger point of view.

 

[Taunton]

Just to butt in here, drivers right from the school through to going into their ICA with a DM, are told no matter how late into a the terminus station they arrive, that they take the full amount of time to change ends, be it 5 mins for a 4 car, 7 mins for an 8 car or 9 mins for a 12 - purely because if you were unfortunate enough to have an incident upon your return journey and the download shows you hadn’t taken the full time to change ends, the finger is pointed at you for not taking the correct amount of time.

Funny then how the DLR sometimes manages 20-second turnrounds, which are not timetabled as such but do happen with inward late running.

 

[Edsmith]

Funny then how the DLR sometimes manages 20-second turnrounds, which are not timetabled as such but do happen with inward late running.

No changing ends on DLR.

 

[Taunton]

No changing ends on DLR.

Well actually they commonly do at the terminus. Out of one car, into another. Though not when 'instant' turnrounds are done. But the point being made was that timetable turnround time should never be reduced as otherwise any subsequent issue blames you for doing so. Which is a complete non sequitur. Quite evidently the times used for timetable planning include an element of contingency and recovery, and allow for the least experienced of new staff to achieve everything. You don't plan to run flat out.

 

[zwk500]

Well actually they commonly do at the terminus. Out of one car, into another. Though not when 'instant' turnrounds are done. But the point being made was that timetable turnround time should never be reduced as otherwise any subsequent issue blames you for doing so. Which is a complete non sequitur. Quite evidently the times used for timetable planning include an element of contingency and recovery, and allow for the least experienced of new staff to achieve everything. You don't plan to run flat out.

The post was saying the minimum time permitted in the TPRs should always be taken, which is different from the timetabled turnround.
Also I suspect theres a big difference in the turnround orocedures between NR cab shutdown and startup and the DLR which runs on ATO.

 

[ComUtoR]

purely because if you were unfortunate enough to have an incident upon your return journey and the download shows you hadn’t taken the full time to change ends, the finger is pointed at you for not taking the correct amount of time.

Purely anecdotal and worthy of a tinfoil hat.

 

[PringlePopper1]

In addition to my above comment on turnaround times, there are a few turns now where you have 8 minutes to turn around once arriving into London, which is leaving a ONE minute buffer, where as before the TT change it was around 15 minutes so you had a little bit of time to swallow any delay on the incoming journey. As a driver for SE, I hate the new timetable wholeheartedly.

 

[43066]

Funny then how the DLR sometimes manages 20-second turnrounds, which are not timetabled as such but do happen with inward late running.

Can you not see any reasons why a DLR train isn’t the same as a national rail train?

How exactly does a driver key off, change ends and set a cab up at the other end of an approx. 160m 8 car train in 20 seconds? Unless you think the Team GB athletics team are currently sitting their drivers’ rules course…

 

[Bald Rick]

Just to butt in here, drivers right from the school through to going into their ICA with a DM, are told no matter how late into a the terminus station they arrive, that they take the full amount of time to change ends, be it 5 mins for a 4 car, 7 mins for an 8 car or 9 mins for a 12 - purely because if you were unfortunate enough to have an incident upon your return journey and the download shows you hadn’t taken the full time to change ends, the finger is pointed at you for not taking the correct amount of time.

That needs challenging.

 

[Horizon22]

Nobody extra is going into the office, people are travelling to see friends and family, judging by the clothes of people on the packed services I have been on

At 8-9am?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2023 ==

Probably not for this thread but it's paying for the £16bn they spent in COVID which cost a packet by insisting very train still ran even though there were no passengers, now there are passengers they want to cut costs. Incompetent Government basically.

Every train did not run during COVID, far from it. Obviously staff costs with no furlough and barely any passengers was a big cost element.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2023 ==

In addition to my above comment on turnaround times, there are a few turns now where you have 8 minutes to turn around once arriving into London, which is leaving a ONE minute buffer, where as before the TT change it was around 15 minutes so you had a little bit of time to swallow any delay on the incoming journey. As a driver for SE, I hate the new timetable wholeheartedly.

Pre-Covid there were plenty of peak trains at places like Charing Cross & Cannon Street that had the bare minimum turnaround times. Of course if it's happening off-peak and regularly, that's not ideal and is a recipe for poor operational reliability.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

At 8-9am?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2023 ==



Every train did not run during COVID, far from it. Obviously staff costs with no furlough and barely any passengers was a big cost element.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2023 ==



Pre-Covid there were plenty of peak trains at places like Charing Cross & Cannon Street that had the bare minimum turnaround times. Of course if it's happening off-peak and regularly, that's not ideal and is a recipe for poor operational reliability.

But it's not happening off peak. Off Peak performance is good.

 

[Horizon22]

But it's not happening off peak. Off Peak performance is good.

I never said it was; the person I was replying to was unclear.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Quite apart from the bloody awful and lop-sided frequencies (isn’t the Woolwich line Metro service something like 6-24-6-24?) and the absolutely dubious fleet planning, the entire lot has been a shambles.

Bad timetable, bad implementation. Train planning should rightly be ashamed of this.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Just to butt in here, drivers right from the school through to going into their ICA with a DM, are told no matter how late into a the terminus station they arrive, that they take the full amount of time to change ends, be it 5 mins for a 4 car, 7 mins for an 8 car or 9 mins for a 12 - purely because if you were unfortunate enough to have an incident upon your return journey and the download shows you hadn’t taken the full time to change ends, the finger is pointed at you for not taking the correct amount of time.

This micro management of drivers who are highly trained and licensed makes a mockery of all the effort that goes into the professional levels that train driving is. As an aside GWR drivers regular swap ends at Redhill in under 2mins every hour with the Reading to Gatwick service.

 

[Pumbaa]

Quite apart from the bloody awful and lop-sided frequencies (isn’t the Woolwich line Metro service something like 6-24-6-24?) and the absolutely dubious fleet planning, the entire lot has been a shambles.

Bad timetable, bad implementation. Train planning should rightly be ashamed of this.

Don’t point the finger at the planners - they’ve only implemented what the funders have asked for.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Don’t point the finger at the planners - they’ve only implemented what the funders have asked for.

They could have done a better job...