Southeastern Snow Disruption - 11/12

[The exile]

Nobody is going to change to winter snow tyres in London, for a couple of bad days a year, if that. Indeed I've never even seen winter tyres in London.

Think the point at which winter tyres start to come into their own is a temperature of 7 (not minus 7!) degrees - that’s a lot more than a couple of bad days.

 

[Tangent]

Well quite - I don't think I have either!



This is largely the problem I think - from what I'd seen on the Met Office it was likely to start at 2300. A more coherent self might have done the same once I saw it coming down, but I was in "invincible" mode by then. 45 minutes of sliding around Stroud Green soon snapped me out of that nonsense.

Yes: both AccuWeather and the BBC forecast supplied by MeteoGroup gave a more accurate picture of the time range and extent of the snowfall, and I think it was the same the last time we had snow.

I knew I had no chance of getting to work easily when I looked out my bedroom window last night, and a passing train was arcing quite noticeably as it came into a station: only one more train managed to make it before the timetable was cancelled.

 

[ashkeba]

Nobody is going to change to winter snow tyres in London, for a couple of bad days a year, if that. Indeed I've never even seen winter tyres in London.

Would you know? They're not bright white or anything.

 

[paul1609]

Think the point at which winter tyres start to come into their own is a temperature of 7 (not minus 7!) degrees - that’s a lot more than a couple of bad days.

The lowest average maximum temperature down here in Kent is 8 degrees in February and its probably higher near the sea where the minimum sea temperature is also 8 degs. Last year we actually experienced about half a dozen ground frosts. Significant snow probably only occurs for one period every 3 to 5 years. Days when winter tyres would offer a significant advantage are probably fewer than you would think.

 

[ExRes]

Would you know? They're not bright white or anything.

They are when they're covered in snow

 

[LAX54]

The A12 must have been bad to close double

Doh !

 

[Snow1964]

Think the point at which winter tyres start to come into their own is a temperature of 7 (not minus 7!) degrees - that’s a lot more than a couple of bad days.

Actually it’s nearer +10c in the wet, and about +5c in the dry.
The exact temperatures vary by brand and formulation.

Nearly all the UK gets cold rain, below +10c for about 4-5 months from November to March, 100+ days any rain likely to be below +10c in south, probably more like 150 days in central Scotland.

Winter tyres work fine at +15c or even +20c. People shouldn’t confuse them with Nordic winter (snow) tyres which are designed for places that have months of snow.

Modern low profile summer tyres can’t cope with cold or snow like the tyres with knobbly tread patterns used in 1990s and earlier.

 

[ComUtoR]

I just use the snow socks I keep in the boot.

 

[George109]

I've always wondered in the snow and ice as a driver how do you know when the third rail is arcing because of ice?
If you keep taking power when it's arcing would this melt through the ice on the rail? Or would something bad happen?

 

[ComUtoR]

I've always wondered in the snow and ice as a driver how do you know when the third rail is arcing because of ice?
If you keep taking power when it's arcing would this melt through the ice on the rail? Or would something bad happen?

You can hear it, see it, and the line light will flicker like crazy.

If you keep arching, the shoe fuses can pop. In extremis, arching can lead to fire. You can get a lot of sparks.

 

[Snow1964]

You can hear it, see it, and the line light will flicker like crazy.

If you keep arching, the shoe fuses can pop. In extremis, arching can lead to fire. You can get a lot of sparks.

Back in 1980s on couple of occasions took first train of morning through New Forest in icy weather with 4REP leading.

Crackling sounds and flashes like lightning multiple times a second along some sections.

 

[MrB]

Looks like the first down train on the Hastings line in about 24hrs is on its way - 1Z38 just left Tonbridge 10L, despite SE saying nothing until 4pm

 

[the sniper]

Last night bus control had obviously given up on the idea of getting W7s up Muswell Hill and Crouch Hill, so one was forced to perambulate from Finsbury Park. Lo and behold, there were several cars stuck on Crouch Hill, including one driven by a rather panicked woman who asked me - noticeably several sheets to the wind - to help her. I obviously declined and promptly slip-slid all the way down to the Broadway. She might have benefited from some of those winter tyres.

Something I found somewhat interesting, having a look at the north side M25 cameras sporadically throughout last night, was the number of out of service London Buses that were amongst the queue. Presumably their control had directed them to the Motorway as a safer bet to get them back to their depot?

Winter tyres work fine at +15c or even +20c.

Not to redo the other thread, but almost only so much as summer tyres are normally 'fine' throughout the winter for many, if it doesn't snow... If you're going to push this angle, you should be advocating all season tyres, not Winters.

 

[Egg Centric]

Actually it’s nearer +10c in the wet, and about +5c in the dry.
The exact temperatures vary by brand and formulation.

Nearly all the UK gets cold rain, below +10c for about 4-5 months from November to March, 100+ days any rain likely to be below +10c in south, probably more like 150 days in central Scotland.

Winter tyres work fine at +15c or even +20c. People shouldn’t confuse them with Nordic winter (snow) tyres which are designed for places that have months of snow.

Modern low profile summer tyres can’t cope with cold or snow like the tyres with knobbly tread patterns used in 1990s and earlier.

Additionally you can get decent all seasons which cope fine with a bit of snow as well as in summer. I run proper winters on my car as it is RWD and has a bit of go but run all seasons (Goodyear Vector 4s) on my wife's car and it's driving perfectly fine on untreated roads here (I'm currently walking on one while writing this post and not having a lot of fun though!)

 

[gmaguire]

Loads of trains cancelled this evening. Lots of problems on the tube and DLR as well.

This is going to be a fun week.

 

[ComUtoR]

Additionally you can get decent all seasons which cope fine with a bit of snow as well as in summer. I run proper winters on my car as it is RWD and has a bit of go but run all seasons (Goodyear Vector 4s) on my wife's car and it's driving perfectly fine on untreated roads here (I'm currently walking on one while writing this post and not having a lot of fun though!)

Do you have the tyres on a second set of wheels or just get the tyres changed ? Where do you store them all year ?

 

[MotCO]

Something I found somewhat interesting, having a look at the north side M25 cameras sporadically throughout last night, was the number of out of service London Buses that were amongst the queue. Presumably their control had directed them to the Motorway as a safer bet to get them back to their depot?

The advantage of using motorways is that they are often cleared first and have a greater level of traffic which keeps the road surface clearer. The big downside, aside fromgetting stuck on the motorways, is that the queue to get off at junctions can be horrendous. I recall about 15 years ago that it took almost as long to get off the motorway as the entire journey beforehand (about an hour).

 

[Alanko]

What are they going to pull? thanks to the brilliant 'progress' with couplers they can't couple up to modern units

Barrier vehicles! Fifty year old traction + windowless blue Mk1 + modern plastic EMU.

 

[ScotGG]

Sounds like SE had a 'mare according to this

Passengers "wee in cups" after Southeastern train stranded - Murky Depths

Passengers have described being stuck on a Southeastern train for almost two hours. One major complaint is a lack of information

www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk

Train failed. It happens in snow, but same old problems cropped up. No communication to driver. No word from driver to passengers not helped by the audio announcements not working. For almost two hours.

DOO train of course. No toilets either.

Certain key problems seen again and again when serious disruption arises.

 

[Egg Centric]

Do you have the tyres on a second set of wheels or just get the tyres changed ? Where do you store them all year ?

I get the tyres changed (only one set of wheels) and keep them in one of my uncle's outbuildings where as a petrolhead he keeps a bunch of tyres - this sort of "specific" location is not an option for everybody but it's little more than a shed tbh, the likes of which most people running a car will have access to.

There are also tyre hotels available. First one I found on google £15/year for the set.

 

[ExRes]

Barrier vehicles! Fifty year old traction + windowless blue Mk1 + modern plastic EMU.

Even better the preserved railways could make some cash hiring out kettles

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Sounds like SE had a 'mare according to this

Passengers "wee in cups" after Southeastern train stranded - Murky Depths

Passengers have described being stuck on a Southeastern train for almost two hours. One major complaint is a lack of information

www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk

Train failed. It happens in snow, but same old problems cropped up. No communication to driver. No word from driver to passengers not helped by the audio announcements not working. For almost two hours.

DOO train of course. No toilets either.

Certain key problems seen again and again when serious disruption arises.

Steve White only MD who will enagge on Twitter to give the industries side

 

[43066]

Steve White only MD who will enagge on Twitter to give the industries side

A little unfortunate he appeared to be misinformed about the stranded trains, albeit thankfully nowhere near the scale of what happened at Lewisham. There were also reports on here of people sleeping on a train in the bay platform at Tonbridge, (albeit technically not stranded, as in a station).

 

[Deepgreen]

Rather like the England World Cup football team saying for the umpteenth World Cup that they will come back stronger next time, it's the same story again and again (and I have not the slightest interest in football).

 

[Snow1964]

Train failed. It happens in snow, but same old problems cropped up.

DOO train of course. No toilets either.

Certain key problems seen again and again when serious disruption arises.

It’s not quite the same as the 1970s and 1980s, there used to be a preference to run the first train formed of something like multiple 2HAP units. The basic idea was if you form 4 x 2car units, get twice as many pick up shoes as 2 x 4car formation.

Some of these little tricks like using the first train to scrape the third rail clean seem to have been forgotten by South Eastern, even though they have 2car 466 units.

 

[43066]

It’s not quite the same as the 1970s and 1980s, there used to be a preference to run the first train formed of something like multiple 2HAP units. The basic idea was if you form 4 x 2car units, get twice as many pick up shoes as 2 x 4car formation.

Some of these little tricks like using the first train to scrape the third rail clean seem to have been forgotten by South Eastern, even though they have 2car 466 units.

IIRC there’s an operating restriction around having max two 466s in an 8 car networker formation because more than that and you’ll end up with couplers making the formation too long for 8 car platform furniture etc., also the issue of universal toilets being needed on trains in service.

From memory some of the sub-types of 375s when in “ice mode” can also dispense anti icing fluid onto shoes.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It’s not quite the same as the 1970s and 1980s, there used to be a preference to run the first train formed of something like multiple 2HAP units. The basic idea was if you form 4 x 2car units, get twice as many pick up shoes as 2 x 4car formation.

Some of these little tricks like using the first train to scrape the third rail clean seem to have been forgotten by South Eastern, even though they have 2car 466 units.

The 375's have more shoes than a 4 VEP/CEP had although the shoes look a lot lighter than the heavy cast iron shoes from that era. The real issue is the clever electronics and software making sure the inverters don't push out currents that interfere with track circuits are generally teh main issue but I thought they had an "ice" mode so be interesting to know if that had been authorised.

 

[Mojo]

Well quite - I don't think I have either!



This is largely the problem I think - from what I'd seen on the Met Office it was likely to start at 2300. A more coherent self might have done the same once I saw it coming down, but I was in "invincible" mode by then. 45 minutes of sliding around Stroud Green soon snapped me out of that nonsense.

Still plenty of it on the ground; like you say, definitely lingering...

The forecast also changed at very late notice which was the main issue affecting the railways, leading to only a couple of hours notice to stand up any winter weather plans, no time to get extra staff in and so on.

The forecast issued on Saturday evening had a low risk with minimal snow forecast with no accumulations. This then changed on Sunday morning to a moderate risk but still with only 3cm snowfall expected. It wasn't until the early afternoon forecast this changed to be a very high risk with upto 8cm accumulations.

 

[43066]

The forecast also changed at very late notice which was the main issue affecting the railways, leading to only a couple of hours notice to stand up any winter weather plans, no time to get extra staff in and so on.

The forecast issued on Saturday evening had a low risk with minimal snow forecast with no accumulations. This then changed on Sunday morning to a moderate risk but still with only 3cm snowfall expected. It wasn't until the early afternoon forecast this changed to be a very high risk with upto 8cm accumulations.

Shades of Lewisham…

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The forecast also changed at very late notice which was the main issue affecting the railways, leading to only a couple of hours notice to stand up any winter weather plans, no time to get extra staff in and so on.

The forecast issued on Saturday evening had a low risk with minimal snow forecast with no accumulations. This then changed on Sunday morning to a moderate risk but still with only 3cm snowfall expected. It wasn't until the early afternoon forecast this changed to be a very high risk with upto 8cm accumulations.

Maybe but were the deicers (ice inhibitors) out all day given the cold weather irrespective of the snow forecast as they are key enabler to keep trains moving and then you have a fighting chance of avoiding snow accumulation that can't be swept clear by the shoegear.