Southeastern upcoming refurbs....

[Mikey C]

But toilets can be retro fitted to the Class 707s and besides they tick all the other requirements of the legislation which is the important thing to remember.

The "other bits" of the legislation could easily be met on the 466s, it's the toilet which is the expensive modification

 

[Mordac]

The "other bits" of the legislation could easily be met on the 466s, it's the toilet which is the expensive modification

Just lock them then?

 

[Doomotron]

Is there really any reason to lock the toilet out of use? The only time they're used by themselves in on the Bromley North line which is a 10 minute (?) journey.

 

[Chiltern006]

less than that. about a 5-6 min journey

 

[CFRAIL]

I know this has been mentioned on other threads, but given that the Bromley North line has had the necessary works to enable 4 car units to run, one would assume that we may start to see the demise of 466's

 

[Chiltern006]

could you potentially make the line a London service, and get rid of the orpington to cannon street stopper? ie one train terminates one train goes through to London etc

 

[JonathanH]

could you potentially make the line a London service, and get rid of the orpington to cannon street stopper? ie one train terminates one train goes through to London etc

No. The track layout at Grove Park isn't set up for it any more. Also, why would you run trains to Bromley North rather than the stations between Grove Park and Orpington where there is more overall demand.

 

[theageofthetra]

Is there really any reason to lock the toilet out of use? The only time they're used by themselves in on the Bromley North line which is a 10 minute (?) journey.

Can't happen, it's the only toilet the driver has access to for up to 4.5 hrs. All are now 4 car 465s.

 

[Chiltern006]

No. The track layout at Grove Park isn't set up for it any more. Also, why would you run trains to Bromley North rather than the stations between Grove Park and Orpington where there is more overall demand.

ah fairs

 

[hwl]

ah fairs

The Bromley North branch is on the fast lines side not the slow lines side so you would kill capacity into Kent crossing the stoppers across the fast lines.

 

[Mordac]

Can't happen, it's the only toilet the driver has access to for up to 4.5 hrs. All are now 4 car 465s.

You could just give the key to the driver, though? They're not gonna need the PRM mods are they? And mark the toilet as for staff use only?

 

[Doomotron]

You could just give the key to the driver, though? They're not gonna need the PRM mods are they? And mark the toilet as for staff use only?

And then you'll get passengers complaining that there's a perfectly usable toilet that is locked out of use, despite a derogation that lets the toilet be used anyway.

 

[ScotGG]

I think it’s appalling that they choose to refurbish those and not the revolting Networkers, which are in a repulsive state even worse than SWRs 458s. I only hope this means they’ll be going soon.

Indeed. The difference between metro and long distance is immense on SE. No serious networker refurbishment in 30 years now. No 376 for 17 years. For a decade people have thought it's because they'll be gone soon. What's the odds many still here in 5-10 years?

I'd say they've been in a repulsive state since 1996 mostly as a result of the routes they ply, it's no wonder nobody wants to spend any real money on the interiors.
Yes the Connex era was particularly bad but they have always been shabby.

This is a myth often stated. SE Metro is no worse than other Metro routes from various TOCs that get better treatment. If anything less bad now compared to the 90s either. I've witnessed more anti social behaviour on c2c, SWR and Southern than SE in the outer London areas.

Networkers have been refreshed before and; to be quite frank. Maybe people should stop treating them like a skip. Quite a few will be going soon™ so you will get your wish.

It was the mildish refresh I've ever seen. Much was still caked in dirt afterwards in various areas. Flooring still grotty and uneven after on some. Networkers are good trains but the interiors have never been looked after by Connex and Southeastern. The only effort was the short lived DOR. Constant short term extensions mean SE never did a thing except when absolutely needed to meet legislation.

 

[JonathanH]

Networkers are good trains but the interiors have never been looked after by Connex and Southeastern.

...or the passengers. It isn't just about the train companies. As you say, they are perfectly good trains in concept. Better than Southern's 455/8s after their refurbishment.

No serious networker refurbishment in 30 years now.

What is a serious refurbishment - the 315s never got one either in their 40 year life - do the seats need to be moved round, do the doorways need to be moved? Networkers are more comfortable than 315s. Is there really a reason why money needs to be spent unnecessarily on functional rolling stock?

 

[Mikey C]

...or the passengers. It isn't just about the train companies. As you say, they are perfectly good trains in concept. Better than Southern's 455/8s after their refurbishment.

The Southeastern passengers are no worse than those that use Southern or Thameslink next door

Indeed on that basis, the Rainham Thameslink trains should be wrecked after having to go through Southeastern territory

 

[MotCO]

Bare in mind it has been said beofre the 707s are an enhancement of the existing feet to provide capacity and wont be replacing any existing stock.

465s and 466s are good enough for another 4 years at least.

If anything should go, its the 376s

I agree. If I had the choice of a Networker or a 376, I'd chose the Networker every time. The Networkers have more comfortable seats, some have air ventilation, the plug doors don't reduce the seating layout. The 376's look cheaper - they look as though they are made up of a number of modules, the doors scrape when they open, there's no ventilation, and the seats are rubbish.

 

[FR510]

The main one is that they've not got a universal toilet, but there's quite a few points on the list (though I think most of the others are also issues on the 465s)

I think it's also the fact that there is no wheelchair space available. I believe this was looked at but resulted in too many seats being removed in a 2 car unit for it to make it feasible. As well as the cost involved no doubt.

All the 465s now have a universal toilet and a wheelchair space I believe.

 

[bramling]

The Southeastern passengers are no worse than those that use Southern or Thameslink next door

Indeed on that basis, the Rainham Thameslink trains should be wrecked after having to go through Southeastern territory

The 700/0s conspicuously have more stuff like window etching and internal graffiti than the 700/1s. I’d say it’s a fair bet that at least some of this can be attributed to the Kent route.

 

[4REP]

Networkers have been refreshed before and; to be quite frank. Maybe people should stop treating them like a skip. Quite a few will be going soon™ so you will get your wish.

EPB'S All over again!

Are the 395s really in need of an interior refresh vs the Metro stock?

I would of thought Hitachi is pulling the strings with this?

 

[ScotGG]

...or the passengers. It isn't just about the train companies. As you say, they are perfectly good trains in concept. Better than Southern's 455/8s after their refurbishment.


What is a serious refurbishment - the 315s never got one either in their 40 year life - do the seats need to be moved round, do the doorways need to be moved? Networkers are more comfortable than 315s. Is there really a reason why money needs to be spent unnecessarily on functional rolling stock?

A serious refurbishment is one that replaces or deep cleans many interior parts for an improved passenger experience. Most TOCs and bus companies realise this is important. The networkers were still dirty and broken after their refresh. The bubbling floors were not fixed on many (some were). Dirt was still embedded in various areas. Many were/are grimey and dingy after work completed and deserved better. The ambience is poor though the trains are fundamentally good for passengers but need more TLC.

The vast majority of passengers keep them fine and deserve better. They shouldn't all suffer for 0.1% of people who might not respect them. Most of those probably wouldn't even be using them if there were staff on board or barriers at the majority of stations.

 

[Chiltern006]

465s are in desperate need of a replacement, could some 379s from GA be converted to use DC operation and be sent over to kick the /9s off? yes the carriage numbers don't match up but oh well

 

[OFFDN]

The 379s are spoken for elsewhere.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The 379s are spoken for elsewhere.

Might you care to elaborate on that?

 

[Class465pacer]

The 379s are spoken for elsewhere.

Where? Do you have a source?

 

[Chiltern006]

GN would be most sensible, then their 387s can go down to Southern (and along with the /3s) then some extra 377s can come over to SE, or they all go directly to Southeastern then the 377s can go back to Southern

Edit- its been confirmed that the 6 c2c 387s will go to GN aswell as 6 GX ones

 

[bramling]

465s are in desperate need of a replacement, could some 379s from GA be converted to use DC operation and be sent over to kick the /9s off? yes the carriage numbers don't match up but oh well

I wouldn’t say the 465s are in *desperate* need of replacement. They have their issues for sure, but from a passenger experience point of view most of this could be fixed relatively easily.

Some operators seem able to maintain the interiors of their trains on an ongoing basis rather than letting them deteriorate and then attempting to fix this with a refurb.

 

[ScottGallagher]

A serious refurbishment is one that replaces or deep cleans many interior parts for an improved passenger experience. Most TOCs and bus companies realise this is important. The networkers were still dirty and broken after their refresh. The bubbling floors were not fixed on many (some were). Dirt was still embedded in various areas. Many were/are grimey and dingy after work completed and deserved better. The ambience is poor though the trains are fundamentally good for passengers but need more TLC.

The vast majority of passengers keep them fine and deserve better. They shouldn't all suffer for 0.1% of people who might not respect them. Most of those probably wouldn't even be using them if there were staff on board or barriers at the majority of stations.

They haven't really recovered from the Connex era, yet they are not as bad these days vandal wise but not great.

As for 315's were they not refurbished by One I seem.to remember they got an interior pink upgrade (looked horrid) and new window frames or similar, then as LO and TFL took over respectively, another interior refresh was done to them whereas 465s get a cats lick in comparison.

 

[DustyBin]

465s are in desperate need of a replacement, could some 379s from GA be converted to use DC operation and be sent over to kick the /9s off? yes the carriage numbers don't match up but oh well

I’d say they’re in desperate need of a good clean and preferably a decent interior refresh!

 

[Skimble19]

GN would be most sensible, then their 387s can go down to Southern (and along with the /3s) then some extra 377s can come over to SE, or they all go directly to Southeastern then the 377s can go back to Southern

Edit- its been confirmed that the 6 c2c 387s will go to GN aswell as 6 GX ones

Can I ask, where have you seen that confirmed please?

 

[Chiltern006]

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/remaining-class-365s-leaving-gn-what-next-for-the-365s.214108/unread

see the first post in this thread