Southern 313s and 508s

[SWT Driver]

But the 313 cannot couple up to any other unit on the Southern Network.

Any unit can "couple" to anything else if you bang them together hard enough, getting them apart again, now thats the difficult bit :wink
Thought the 313s were tightlock same as 455, just the boxes are different, not much use around Brighton though.

The coupling thing shouldnt be a problem as long as either the train in front (or behind) has the same coupling. Not like the 450 that went to Reading, sat down at Long Cross with a 458 either side and stopped the job for 2 hours.

 

[Metadyneman]

I suppose looking at it practically the 313s are a logical choice for short distance coastway working but my main concern is that they don't "slip" onto other workings as a potential for longer distance work as can happen from time to time. The one useful issue about a 313 is at least the doors will be opened & shut quicker than the delay on a 377 which should assist prompt dispatch times.

The other slightly more worrying issue is that of 442s being used full time on the Brighton Express... Nice idea but it would be good to perhaps fully overhaul them first and pop them into Southern colours while they are at it. Still that is another issue and off topic so I won't go there

 

[Fincra5]

I suppose looking at it practically the 313s are a logical choice for short distance coastway working but my main concern is that they don't "slip" onto other workings as a potential for longer distance work as can happen from time to time. The one useful issue about a 313 is at least the doors will be opened & shut quicker than the delay on a 377 which should assist prompt dispatch times.

The other slightly more worrying issue is that of 442s being used full time on the Brighton Express... Nice idea but it would be good to perhaps fully overhaul them first and pop them into Southern colours while they are at it. Still that is another issue and off topic so I won't go there

Well the plan was just to remove the "gatwick" from the "gatwick express". Keeping the trains in the gatex livery though. Almost like a southern Express livery

 

[Metadyneman]

Not convinced on that really.. the livery is still too close to SWeaty Trains livery to gve it that proper Southern greenery look!!

 

[Fincra5]

Not convinced on that really.. the livery is still too close to SWeaty Trains livery to gve it that proper Southern greenery look!!

Tbh i don't think the Southern livery would look good on a 442. Not at all.

The gatex livery is quite similar to South West Trains yh.

 

[CROMPTON 33]

I have been told that we are getting 17 class 313's. they will run brighton to hastings. when they stop the DMU'S on the brighton to ashford service at hastings this year this free's up a dmu for the wandsworth road to ealing service.

 

[Voyager 2093]

On this subject, whilst reading a rail magazine, it stated the 460s are going to South West Trains anybody got any light on this or want to comment on this?

 

[Fincra5]

I have been told that we are getting 17 class 313's. they will run brighton to hastings. when they stop the DMU'S on the brighton to ashford service at hastings this year this free's up a dmu for the wandsworth road to ealing service.

Class 313s will not run as far as hastings.

Brighton-seaford. Brighton-West Worthing

Yes there are plans to stop the service from Ashford to terminate at eastbourne. Class 377/1 or /4 will take over the same working as 171 did from Eastbourne to Brighton.

On this subject, whilst reading a rail magazine, it stated the 460s are going to South West Trains anybody got any light on this or want to comment on this?

The 442s were bought to Southern to replace the 460s, which would be modified to work with 458s

 

[fgwrich]

Tbh i don't think the Southern livery would look good on a 442. Not at all.

The gatex livery is quite similar to South West Trains yh.

Oh...

Like this?




Well, Heres a Southern 442, a Southern 442 In a more Express variant of livery and a slightly off topic South Eastern 442 - Well, anything could have happend to them!

Oh and lastly, how about one in FCC*? Well, im working on that, but heres one in FGW Style Dynamic Lines...

As for there interiors...Southern should never have touched {ruined} them with the Gat Ex refurbishment - The ex South West Trains interior was undoubtably the best, with comfortable proper seating - unlike the present cr*p, with a proper First Class section and a proper Buffet / Snug area - Thus making these units perfect for the Brighton Express's from the start...

Now they really are a shadow of there formerselves and the Gat Ex 'refurbishment', id rate, is a pretty substandard job with an arkward new layout, now running as Glorified commuter trains...

And i know what they were like, i grew up with them on my line!

*obviously though, for the 442s to work for FCC they would proberley require remotoring and converting to 25kv AC...

 

[87015]

Class 313s will not run as far as hastings.

Brighton-seaford. Brighton-West Worthing

You don't need anywhere near 17 units just for those turns though...

 

[gchst]

There are two re-numberd southern livery 313s at wielsden depot.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You don't need anywhere near 17 units just for those turns though...

Apparently they might end up running to ore and some of the london metro routes.

 

[MCR247]

Oh...

Like this?




Well, Heres a Southern 442, a Southern 442 In a more Express variant of livery and a slightly off topic South Eastern 442 - Well, anything could have happend to them!

Oh and lastly, how about one in FCC*? Well, im working on that, but heres one in FGW Style Dynamic Lines...

As for there interiors...Southern should never have touched {ruined} them with the Gat Ex refurbishment - The ex South West Trains interior was undoubtably the best, with comfortable proper seating - unlike the present cr*p, with a proper First Class section and a proper Buffet / Snug area - Thus making these units perfect for the Brighton Express's from the start...

Now they really are a shadow of there formerselves and the Gat Ex 'refurbishment', id rate, is a pretty substandard job with an arkward new layout, now running as Glorified commuter trains...

And i know what they were like, i grew up with them on my line!

*obviously though, for the 442s to work for FCC they would proberley require remotoring and converting to 25kv AC...

The FCC one is in the wrong livery, it wouldn't have dynamic

 

[fgwrich]

The FCC one is in the wrong livery, it wouldn't have dynamic

Hence why i said...

Oh and lastly, how about one in FCC*? Well, im working on that, but heres one in FGW Style Dynamic Lines...

 

[MCR247]

Sorry rich

 

[Minstral25]

On this subject, whilst reading a rail magazine, it stated the 460s are going to South West Trains anybody got any light on this or want to comment on this?

The Network Rail Sussex RUS states the following: -

"With regard to
the issue of spare rolling stock in the peak,
during the production of the Draft RUS the
bidding franchisees’ proposals for use of that
rolling stock were confidential; however it is
now confirmed that Class 460 stock will be
removed from the franchise by December
2010 and will be used to best effect to
strengthen services on other routes."

So it appears the Gatwick Express stock will be replaced at the end of this year at the December 2010 timetable change.

 

[gchst]

Class 313s will not run as far as hastings.

Brighton-seaford. Brighton-West Worthing

Yes there are plans to stop the service from Ashford to terminate at eastbourne. Class 377/1 or /4 will take over the same working as 171 did from Eastbourne to Brighton.



The 442s were bought to Southern to replace the 460s, which would be modified to work with 458s

By the way ive seen quite a few 377/2s at eastbourne recently going to ore or brighton

 

[Voyager 2093]

The 460s will look good in South West Trains express colours, anyone have a clue as to which services they will work?

 

[Fincra5]

The 460s will look good in South West Trains express colours, anyone have a clue as to which services they will work?

Dunno, but i cant see the point in that stock exchange. 460s were designed for airport use. 442s just werent.

 

[Voyager 2093]

But they could then work well on the London to Southampton Airport services can anyone compare the passenger capacity on the 442 and 460.

 

[Fincra5]

But they could then work well on the London to Southampton Airport services can anyone compare the passenger capacity on the 442 and 460.

Yes but i believe they are going to remove the large baggage compartment. So that is pointless

 

[MCR247]

But they could then work well on the London to Southampton Airport services can anyone compare the passenger capacity on the 442 and 460.

They would go to SWT to all 10 car service on suburban work, and do you honestly think that there would need to be such service with 460s?

 

[Minstral25]

They would go to SWT to all 10 car service on suburban work, and do you honestly think that there would need to be such service with 460s?

The 460's would be split up - 16 driving cabs with 56 middle cars are available

30 middle cars added to each 4-car juniper to make 5-car units

24 middle cars with the 16 driving cabs to make another 8 5-car units.

Thus 38 five car units with 2 trailers left over.

I guess they will be refurbished internally to match the 458's but will the Driving cabs be modified with a Juniper front end rather than the Gatwick Express Darth Vader look??

 

[Bastiaan]

Completely modifying the cab would be too expensive, I think. The nose cone has to be removed to make coupling with other units possiple. What remains of te nose is even uglier. Examples can be seen here: http://www.southernelectric.org.uk/features/otherjun.html#460

 

[jon0844]

The 395s also have nose-cones.

 

[Fincra5]

The 395s also have nose-cones.

Uh huh, but these are closed, except to join one unit to another.

 

[Helvellyn]

On this subject, whilst reading a rail magazine, it stated the 460s are going to South West Trains anybody got any light on this or want to comment on this?

This is not definite, but a proposal from Porterbrook to meet the rolling stock requirements for the 10-car railway on SWT's Windsor Lines. Latest Rail states: -

• 24 458 unts would be lengthened from 4-car to 5-car units (458/5)
• 8 460 DMSO and 4 DMFLO to be rebuilt along with 18 trailer coaches to make 6 further 5 car units.

This would give 30 5-car units. All driving vehicles would receive Dellner couplers and new cabs with permanent corridor connections. Seating would be 2+2 Standard Class (probably based on SWT 455 layout to allow extra standing room).

The 6 4-car 458/0 unist would retain First Class - peak hour use only units? (Maybe the Aldershot-Waterloo services via Ascot).

Spare vehicles would be stripped of all parts to be used as spares, with the shells then scrapped (possibly a couple kept in store in case of future accident damage).


The Rail article also says the Porterbrook proposal is that the 24 2-car 456 units would be transferred to SWT as well, and Southern have received notice they will come off lease in December 2011.


The rival proposal from Angel Trains, according to Rail, would involve more new build Desiros for London Midland (380s?), allowing the dual-voltage 350/1s to move to SWT - the very TOC the vehicles were intended for before the SRA decided it didn't believe a 5-car railway on the Windsor Lines was necessary. This is seen as the more expensive option, hence why the Porerbrook option is seen as becoming more and more likely.

[SWT's original 450 order was for 100 450/0 4-car units for outer-suburban duties and 32 5-car 450/2 units for use on inner-suburban duties on the Windsor Lines. The SRA decided to change this and the order was ammended to 110 4-car 450/0 4-car units. The remaining 120 vehicles of the order became the 30 4-car 350/1 units that went to Central/Silverlink and that are now with London Midland.]

I'd guess that if we get the rebuilt 458/5s, then the HC 450/5s would be converted back to standard 450s for use on the Reading services.

 

[Pumbaa]

The rival proposal from Angel Trains, according to Rail, would involve more new build Desiros for London Midland (380s?), allowing the dual-voltage 350/1s to move to SWT - the very TOC the vehicles were intended for before the SRA decided it didn't believe a 5-car railway on the Windsor Lines was necessary. This is seen as the more expensive option, hence why the Porerbrook option is seen as becoming more and more likely.

Don't believe everything you read

The Angel Trains proposal was about to be swept away, before someone in DafT did some quick thinking, and came up with a good idea, which went something like this... Transfer the 350/1s to SWT, deal with the 10-car trains. Order new Desiros for WC, and TPE, which can be designed to be mainline express standard from the start. Why? The Edb/Manc runs are to be transferred to elektrikity with the electrification in the NW, using the existing 350/1s with LM. Might as well deal with both, as well as leaving extra capacity in place.

But of course, because it's a good idea, it'll probably be ignored

 

[Metadyneman]

On a slightly different note, two 313s in prospective Southern Livery have been observed at Willesden depot recently. Evidence would suggest that the light green does not extend beyond the first set of double doors and the front of the unit is as they are now but the centre door is painted light green (yuk) which clashes nicely with the yellow! Someone has posted a short and very shaky video of these units at Willesden TMD on YouTube which can be seen:-

HERE

 

[Ivo]

The 460's would be split up - 16 driving cabs with 56 middle cars are available

30 middle cars added to each 4-car juniper to make 5-car units

24 middle cars with the 16 driving cabs to make another 8 5-car units.

Thus 38 five car units with 2 trailers left over.

I guess they will be refurbished internally to match the 458's but will the Driving cabs be modified with a Juniper front end rather than the Gatwick Express Darth Vader look??

Five-car Juniper units? This sounds somewhat worrying to me. The SWT Junipers are only ever used on the Waterloo-Reading route (under normal circumstances anyway). Those platforms can only take eight cars. Does this mean that Reading services would be run by five-car trains? Or, worse, would they use ten-car trains? I'm sure that such an idea would go down well in Wokingham... :roll:

Also... I think Junipers are ugly. Especially when linked together.

Anyway, with regards to the 313s/508s, would it not make sense to run every local service out of Brighton with them? I'm not suggesting somewhere daft or distant such as Hsstings or Portsmouth, but certainly as far as Littlehampton (and the Bognor shuttle) and Eastbourne?

 

[thefab444]

I imagine the 458s would be moved to other lines (Windsor, Kingston Loop, Hounslow Loop etc.), with platform extensions, and the 450s being put back on the Reading diagrams.

It would be good if the 350/1s were transferred to SWT, they'd be perfect for use on the Portsmouth line which could then free up some 450s. We'd still need to order some extra trailer cars for the 450/5s though.