Southern admit they were wrong to sell GX "supplement".

[DaveNewcastle]

So I take from that TOCs can claim whatever they like in their publicity so long as they suitably undermine it in the smallprint of a contract? Not sure I could find a judge who agrees with you there...

Ahem.
I don't believe I would encounter any difficulty there.
There's dozens of Judgements in the last few months alone which would appear to satisfy your search.
In fact, the matters on which they have been asked to reach a decision have often been exactly this: to find the correct and proper way to read and to apply what is written.

 

[yorkie]

Not really comparable as HS1 takes a different route

Agreed, HS1 is a geographical route description without doubt

whereas GX takes the same route just with trains with a different name on the side.

Not even that! The branding 'EXPRESS' is used by Brighton Express as well as Gatwick Express and also a London Bridge - Eastbourne service. Southern does not deny that Brighton Express is part of the same company and does not pretend it's a separate company (though if it suited them, they would, just like people used to deny the world was round! )

For consistency, "HS1" or "NOT HS1" on a ticket should really be "VIA EBBSFLEET INTL" or "NOT VIA EBBSFLEET INTL"

For consistency "PLUS HIGH SPEED" should be "ANY PERMITTED" but I agree "NOT HS1" should, as you say, be "NOT VIA EBBSFLEET INTL" (if that's not too many characters!)

 

[dvboy]

Route
NOT EBBSFLEET

That would fit. Or it could be Stratford but Ebbsfleet is probably clearer as there is only one station on one line there.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

OK, I concede that "not HS1" is geographical. I also agree that "NOT EBBSFLEET" would have made a ton more sense, and that "ANY PERMITTED" is what "PLUS HIGH SPEED" should be. But of course, Yorkie, that wouldn't have worked because of fare regulation. (Because the PLUS HIGH SPEED fares are higher than regulation would have allowed ANY PERMITTED to be, and in reality ANY PERMITTED (for fares set by Southeastern) actually became NOT HS1.

PLUS HIGH SPEED is particularly stupid given that you can travel on trains branded HIGH SPEED for most of the route without paying PLUS HIGH SPEED fares.

 

[MikeWh]

OK, I concede that "not HS1" is geographical. I also agree that "NOT EBBSFLEET" would have made a ton more sense, and that "ANY PERMITTED" is what "PLUS HIGH SPEED" should be. But of course, Yorkie, that wouldn't have worked because of fare regulation. (Because the PLUS HIGH SPEED fares are higher than regulation would have allowed ANY PERMITTED to be, and in reality ANY PERMITTED (for fares set by Southeastern) actually became NOT HS1.

PLUS HIGH SPEED is particularly stupid given that you can travel on trains branded HIGH SPEED for most of the route without paying PLUS HIGH SPEED fares.

That's a very good point about the regualted fares. If that really is the reason, then why couldn't someone at either Southeastern or the DfT have said that?

Unfortunately it would not be possible to use any of the stations on HS1 as a routeing descriptor because each one would miss an important flow. Not Ebbsfleet would allow St Pancras to Stratford while Not Stratford Intl would allow Ashford to Gravesend. Plus High Speed simply needs to say Also Valid on HS1.

 

[dvboy]

Not Stratford Intl would allow Ashford to Gravesend.

Ashford to Gravesend is valid anyway isn't it?

 

[John @ home]

Ashford to Gravesend is valid anyway isn't it?

Ashford Intl - Gravesend has 3 sets of fares:

• route NOT VALID ON HS1
• route ANY PERMITTED
• route EBSFLET+HSNOTLON

The shortest route is Ashford Intl - Ebbsfleet Int - Gravesend. This is therefore a Permitted Route.

For some ticket types (WK1, SVR, WK2, SDS, SPO and CDR), the cheapest fare is route NOT VALID ON HS1.
For some ticket types (FDR, FSO, FDS and CDS), the cheapest fare is route ANY PERMITTED.
For one ticket type (SDR), the cheapest fare is route EBSFLET+HSNOTLON.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

That's an example of what a mess they've made of it. For goodness' sake! "EBBSFT NOT LON" would have done the job, rather than "EBSFLET+HSNOTLON" as you can't get to Ebbsfleet International other than on high speed track.

I'll actually give them that "NOT HS1" is quite concise (although not very clear) but "NOT EBSFT/LONDON" would be better as it's blocking both ways of approaching Ebbsfleet on HS1.

 

[John @ home]

"NOT EBSFT/LONDON" would be better

It would lead to a long debate on this forum over whether "/" meant "or" or "and"!

As far as I can see,

• route WARMSTER-SALSBRY means "via Warminster AND Salisbury", but
• route EVESHAM/STROUD means "via Evesham OR Stroud".

 

[DaveNewcastle]

and so, by maintaining the integrity of the logic whereby a negative (the "NOT" in "NOT EBSFT/LONDON") when applied to terms linked by an "OR" (the "OR" in "EBSFT/LONDON") results in an "AND".

i.e. NOT EBSFT AND NOT LONDON

(the alternative of EITHER NOT EBSFT OR NOT LONDON would be a very surprising condition to intend.)

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Forgive my late arrival in this dialogue but note that, although ORR does not regulate fares directly, it is already the competition and consumer law authority for the rail sector under general competition law as amended over the years (ie. not under the Railways Acts). Thus it can investigate the way in which tickets are sold, including the misleading price indications, availability of information. This is over and above the further range of powers that ORR might acquire as a result of the ongoing DfT/ORR consultation.

 

[Smethwickian]

Apologies if anyone else has mentioned this, but I've only just noticed that according to the newest National Rail timetable valid from 14 May 2012 to 8 December 2012 - http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May12/timetables/Table 186.pdf - all such trains will henceforth be operated by Southern (SN) anyway, with no mention of GX for Gatwick Express.......

 

[MikeWh]

Apologies if anyone else has mentioned this, but I've only just noticed that according to the newest National Rail timetable valid from 14 May 2012 to 8 December 2012 - http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May12/timetables/Table 186.pdf - all such trains will henceforth be operated by Southern (SN) anyway, with no mention of GX for Gatwick Express.......

Very interesting. The online journey planner still shows them as Gatwick Express.

 

[Smethwickian]

Very interesting. The online journey planner still shows them as Gatwick Express.

Indeed. And I've also examined a new pocket timetable I picked up the other day, also valid from May 14, branded entirely as Gatwick Express with no mention of Southern.

While the TOC information pages from the aforesaid NRT give the contact details for gatwick Express as Southern Customer Services and an email address @southern.com.

So, as crystal clear and unambiguous as ever, then, from our train companies and ATOC working so smoothly together for the benefit of passengers...

If the experts and experienced staff on this forum still have cause to bandy issues like this one about, what hope for the vast majority of ordinary passengers to pay the right price and get the right ticket?

 

[Eagle]

Very interesting. The online journey planner still shows them as Gatwick Express.

Although the online journey planner still showed future GA services as NXEA before the changeover date (and IIRC for a couple of days afterwards).

 

[dvboy]

Apologies if anyone else has mentioned this, but I've only just noticed that according to the newest National Rail timetable valid from 14 May 2012 to 8 December 2012 - http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May12/timetables/Table 186.pdf - all such trains will henceforth be operated by Southern (SN) anyway, with no mention of GX for Gatwick Express.......

I bet the price of an Any Permitted ticket doesn't come down though (to the price of the current "Not GX" ticket)!

 

[flymo]

Isn't the National Rail Timetable the definitive answer when it comes to discrepancies such as this? If this says it is SN in the NR timetable when you book it (in case they try to change it) then all bets are off and all tickets that are valid on Southern Trains between Gatwick and Victoria etc MUST be valid without hesitation.

Sadly I think there will still be difficulties.

What a mess .

 

[infobleep]

Why does the Gatwick Express map and leaflet only show it running between Gatwick and London Victoria? Why are they so reluctant to admit they run trains to Brighton. Okay it's a limited service but surely they could mark it as such on the map. If I ran a company I would want to promote all the places I went to. Surely that makes good PR. Or is Brighton a kind of we'd rather go here but we have to type of place? That I doubt.

I was on the platform at Haywards Heath station recently and it stated on the information screen that passengers travelling to London Bridge with a ticket marked Southern only were allowed to board the express branded train. I was waiting for 7.20 Gatwick Express service and there was nothing on the screen to say that Southern tickets were not valid. Why mention it for one service and not the other?

Also I wouldn't exactly call the Gatwick Expres service Express. Some of them take 15 minutes to reach Gatwick from Haywards Heath and non-Gatwick Express trains can do that quicker in 10 minutes. I don't think the journey times into Victoria are that much faster from Haywards Heath when travelling on non Gatwick Express trains and the same in the evening. The service from Gatwick to Victoria actually takes 35 minutes during this time.

I know technically it is due to pathing issues and number of trains but thought I'd mention it all the same given it's branded as an express.

When you reach Gatwick Airport there is announcement to say the train only waits for a short time. Well I was once on 17.45 to Haywards Heath that seemed to wait for longer than a short time. I think part of this was a delay and the rest, part of the timetable. As in it was supposed to wait.

What I do like about the trains though is they seem to be nicer to travel on and if travelling in the morning from Haywards Heath, I will always try and make it a Gatwick Express. It is never full to the point of not being able to get a seat, expect if there's a train fault and it has to run short formed. However I've only had that once or twice. Admittedly I only use it on average about once a week in either direction.

 

[bb21]

Why does the Gatwick Express map and leaflet only show it running between Gatwick and London Victoria?

Because the brand Gatwick Express only exists between Victoria and Gatwick Airport. At Gatwick Airport a Wessex Electrics-operated service symbolically changes brand and becomes a Southern/Brighton Express-branded service.

 

[yorkie]

Because the brand Gatwick Express only exists between Victoria and Gatwick Airport. At Gatwick Airport a Wessex Electrics-operated service symbolically changes brand and becomes a Southern/Brighton Express-branded service.

Except when we asked Southern they denied this was the case, and the screens still show the service as Gatwick Express between Brighton & Gatwick when it is supposed to be Southern branded.

The solution is that the TOC should clearly be stated as Southern throughout, but they can use the branding Gatwick Express for the section of journey between Gatwick and London in the same way that other TOCs have used brands, such as Southern's own Brighton Express, or the Stansted Express, Cambridge Cruiser etc.

At present the screens are highly misleading as they show a TOC that does not exist.

 

[LE Greys]

How different is this from any of the other supplimentary fare services (LNER streamliners, the Brighton Belle, etc)? I know it was operated by a different company for a while, but it started out under one company (BR) as a supplimentary fare service.