The two individual vehicles are class 317s. I think they are from 317342 and 317515.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Southern Class 455 Withdrawal
- Thread starter Jturner98
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
antharro
Member
- Joined
- 20 Dec 2006
- Messages
- 604
For anyone looking at that picture wondering what on earth is going on...
Find the green excavator. It's just above and to the right of the two 455s. The large brown structure to its left is the feed conveyor. There's a conveyor belt in the middle. An entire train carriage can't be fed into the shredder in one go - it first needs to be removed from its bogies, then cut into smaller pieces, usually around the size of a vehicle (car/van), or smaller. If it's very thin then a larger piece could be fed in; for example, the roof of a carriage. Whatever a grab mounted on the excavator can pull off in one go is what goes on the belt. If you look next to the 317 on its side (left side of the pic), there's an orange excavator with a cutting shear on its arm. This will be used to cut the carriages into smaller pieces - on the other side of the 317 are pieces of other carriages, waiting to be fed into the shredder.
Once on the belt, it is taken upwards. The small blue hut part way up is where the controller sits, keeping an eye on things through visual inspections (CCTV and out of the window), and from what various computer screens will tell them. Most of the shredder is automated but a human eye is still necessary. The feed belt goes up past the hut, into the large blue structure, where the belt levels out momentarily, before ending. Where it ends, the metal scrap is dropped down into the feed chute and towards the feed roller, which pulls the scrap into the shredder box. The feed roller is controlled in both speed and the pressure it can exert - it is there to both pull scrap in but also to roll it as flat as much as possible at the same time. A road car (or van!) can be flattened down to just a few inches by the roller. The forces involved here are significant.
On the other side of the roller, in the smaller triangular shaped structure is the hammer mill - a very large shaft approximately three metres or so wide, with a frame that allows a couple of dozen free spinning hammers to mount onto it on their own shafts. These hammers swing out using centrifugal force created by the main shaft spinning. They will obliterate a typical car or van in just a few seconds. The roller keeps feeding in the scrap as fast as the hammers can shred it. I would estimate it would take less than a minute to shred an entire, complete 455 carriage (minus its bogies - there are things that are too strong for the hammers).
Below the shredder box is another conveyor belt - this is the smaller brown one. It leads to the processing part of the mill. Here, the output from the shredder is separated into three fractions - ferrous, non-ferrous, and "fluff", otherwise known as shredder residue. Ferrous and non-ferrous are self explanatory. "Fluff" consists of everything that isn't metal. Seats, insulation, paper/cardboard advertisements, carpet, plastic moldings, rubber, etc. Depending on the configuration of the plant (I don't know Sims' exact setup at Newport), it's usually a combination of magnets, eddy currents, air separation, manual picking lines. There's a manual picking line just above the orange excavator next to the 317 on its side - look up, it's the green building with the air conditioning units on its exterior and two conveyor belts running through it. This is there to keep that particular fraction as clean as possible. I suspect that's the ferrous fraction. There are many other techniques and processes for separating out the fluff, but usually this is outsourced. Sims certain has the capacity to further separate it, but I don't *think* they do it at the Newport plant.
In theory the hammers can shred engine blocks - small ones pose no problem. Whether they'd be able to shred an HST's engine and motor... probably, but not in one piece, and it wouldn't be the most efficient way anyway. Generally UK scrap yards remove engines and gearboxes before crushing a car, but not all do, and plants like this can take cars regardless of whether they have engine and gearbox. But those are small engines. I would think that a big engine like an MTU or Valenta would be sent off for more specialist recycling as it would be more efficient and would reduce the rate at which the hammers were worn down. There are slow speed shredders that have immense amounts of torque and with solid, fixed cutting teeth (instead of swinging hammers) designed to tear apart an engine without anywhere near the amount of wear the same engine would inflict on a hammer mill.
Anyway, hope that's an interesting, if somewhat depressing explanation of what happens to our old trains at the end of their lives. Large scale and chillingly efficient. A bit different to the days when Booths etc would cut them up with gas torches and disc cutters.
For the morbidly curious, here's a NI class 450 (thumper) being cut in half by a cutting shear similar to the one in the picture.
Here's a Sims plant with a hammer mill operating in New Zealand:
Here's a "documentary" on the hammer mill at Newport; it's a bit sensationalised but you can mostly ignore that! It also shows some of the other operations that go on at Sims.
This video shows what Volkswagen do with the "fluff" fraction from recycled cars - it's quite interesting.
Find the green excavator. It's just above and to the right of the two 455s. The large brown structure to its left is the feed conveyor. There's a conveyor belt in the middle. An entire train carriage can't be fed into the shredder in one go - it first needs to be removed from its bogies, then cut into smaller pieces, usually around the size of a vehicle (car/van), or smaller. If it's very thin then a larger piece could be fed in; for example, the roof of a carriage. Whatever a grab mounted on the excavator can pull off in one go is what goes on the belt. If you look next to the 317 on its side (left side of the pic), there's an orange excavator with a cutting shear on its arm. This will be used to cut the carriages into smaller pieces - on the other side of the 317 are pieces of other carriages, waiting to be fed into the shredder.
Once on the belt, it is taken upwards. The small blue hut part way up is where the controller sits, keeping an eye on things through visual inspections (CCTV and out of the window), and from what various computer screens will tell them. Most of the shredder is automated but a human eye is still necessary. The feed belt goes up past the hut, into the large blue structure, where the belt levels out momentarily, before ending. Where it ends, the metal scrap is dropped down into the feed chute and towards the feed roller, which pulls the scrap into the shredder box. The feed roller is controlled in both speed and the pressure it can exert - it is there to both pull scrap in but also to roll it as flat as much as possible at the same time. A road car (or van!) can be flattened down to just a few inches by the roller. The forces involved here are significant.
On the other side of the roller, in the smaller triangular shaped structure is the hammer mill - a very large shaft approximately three metres or so wide, with a frame that allows a couple of dozen free spinning hammers to mount onto it on their own shafts. These hammers swing out using centrifugal force created by the main shaft spinning. They will obliterate a typical car or van in just a few seconds. The roller keeps feeding in the scrap as fast as the hammers can shred it. I would estimate it would take less than a minute to shred an entire, complete 455 carriage (minus its bogies - there are things that are too strong for the hammers).
Below the shredder box is another conveyor belt - this is the smaller brown one. It leads to the processing part of the mill. Here, the output from the shredder is separated into three fractions - ferrous, non-ferrous, and "fluff", otherwise known as shredder residue. Ferrous and non-ferrous are self explanatory. "Fluff" consists of everything that isn't metal. Seats, insulation, paper/cardboard advertisements, carpet, plastic moldings, rubber, etc. Depending on the configuration of the plant (I don't know Sims' exact setup at Newport), it's usually a combination of magnets, eddy currents, air separation, manual picking lines. There's a manual picking line just above the orange excavator next to the 317 on its side - look up, it's the green building with the air conditioning units on its exterior and two conveyor belts running through it. This is there to keep that particular fraction as clean as possible. I suspect that's the ferrous fraction. There are many other techniques and processes for separating out the fluff, but usually this is outsourced. Sims certain has the capacity to further separate it, but I don't *think* they do it at the Newport plant.
In theory the hammers can shred engine blocks - small ones pose no problem. Whether they'd be able to shred an HST's engine and motor... probably, but not in one piece, and it wouldn't be the most efficient way anyway. Generally UK scrap yards remove engines and gearboxes before crushing a car, but not all do, and plants like this can take cars regardless of whether they have engine and gearbox. But those are small engines. I would think that a big engine like an MTU or Valenta would be sent off for more specialist recycling as it would be more efficient and would reduce the rate at which the hammers were worn down. There are slow speed shredders that have immense amounts of torque and with solid, fixed cutting teeth (instead of swinging hammers) designed to tear apart an engine without anywhere near the amount of wear the same engine would inflict on a hammer mill.
Anyway, hope that's an interesting, if somewhat depressing explanation of what happens to our old trains at the end of their lives. Large scale and chillingly efficient. A bit different to the days when Booths etc would cut them up with gas torches and disc cutters.
For the morbidly curious, here's a NI class 450 (thumper) being cut in half by a cutting shear similar to the one in the picture.
Here's a Sims plant with a hammer mill operating in New Zealand:
Here's a "documentary" on the hammer mill at Newport; it's a bit sensationalised but you can mostly ignore that! It also shows some of the other operations that go on at Sims.
This video shows what Volkswagen do with the "fluff" fraction from recycled cars - it's quite interesting.
Last edited:
Class360/1
Member
Thank you for the very helpful insight as to what happens and how they work.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
It is and majority of the scrap is exported by ship to other parts of the world for reprocessing back into steel and other metals to make products to be exported back to uk. Not sure how that plays out in the environmental credentials but at least the SN 455's gave more service than there GTR 365 sisters.
TrainTrackJack
Member
I believe this may well be the final move from Streatham Hill to Stewarts Lane -
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
5T55 1050 Streatham Hill - Stewarts Lane 13/07
Realtime Trains | 5T55 1050 Streatham Hill C.S.D. to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D | 13/07/2022
Real-time train running information for 5T55 1050 departure from Streatham Hill C.S.D. to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D on 13/07/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
5T55 1050 Streatham Hill - Stewarts Lane 13/07
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Guess with 55 in the headcode it certainly could be and it will mark the end of EE507 operated service trains. Im not really sure how many motors were built by English Electric but i estimate c4500 for the Southern Region units. The ones in 455's were recycled from early SUB or EPB's so could have had one of the oldest motors. Anyhow they enabled 100's of millions of journeys over 70 odd years so although hidden away in the bogies it would be appropriate for one to be in a museum somewhere explaining the story. Of course in the political world you would get an honour in recognition of services given.I believe this may well be the final move from Streatham Hill to Stewarts Lane -
Realtime Trains | 5T55 1050 Streatham Hill C.S.D. to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D | 13/07/2022
Real-time train running information for 5T55 1050 departure from Streatham Hill C.S.D. to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D on 13/07/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
5T55 1050 Streatham Hill - Stewarts Lane 13/07
Southern Dvr
Member
- Joined
- 13 Oct 2010
- Messages
- 876
Note Train recesses at Victoria from 1106/1126 presumably for last rites to be read!I believe this may well be the final move from Streatham Hill to Stewarts Lane -
Realtime Trains | 5T55 1050 Streatham Hill C.S.D. to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D | 13/07/2022
Real-time train running information for 5T55 1050 departure from Streatham Hill C.S.D. to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D on 13/07/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
5T55 1050 Streatham Hill - Stewarts Lane 13/07
Mikey C
Established Member
- Joined
- 11 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 6,854
Indeed a staggering achievement, though also an indictment of the Southern Region that they specified their 1980s EMUs with a 40 year old design of traction motor!
In fairness, they were likely a lot more dependable than some of the flaky electronics being touted in the 80s! The Southern was never known for messing about, they ran an intensive operation and liked to use kit that they knew would work!
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
well actually they did use GECs latest design of traction motors in the 507/508 but then reverted to recycled EE507s for the 455/456's guess economics at play as the 507/508's had 8 motors and two sets of camshaft control equipment so twice the mtce.
Mikey C
Established Member
- Joined
- 11 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 6,854
The Mk3 EMUs were a retrograde step over the PEPs. I assume the 317s though had modern traction motors
Goldfish62
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 10,069
Re: 455. Only one powered coach. Manual jumper cables at waist level. No rheostatic braking. Heavier bodies. All-in-all a bit of a mess.
And yet they have been lauded for their reliability
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Thats because they were nice and simple camshaft control and without "the computer says NO". That said once you get modern three phase units in the sweet spot they did outperform 455's.
Goldfish62
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 10,069
Doesn't mean they weren't a retrograde design.
The 455/8s were also poorly built. Poorly fitting and lose internal panelling among other things.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
All very well but a quick wholesale replacement of Subs/Epbs and 508s were needed
Goldfish62
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 10,069
So why not order more 508s? That would have been even quicker.
In all the books I've read about the Southern EMUs of the era not once has it been mentioned that the retrograde design or poor build quality was as a result of a rushed order because apparently the life expiry of the EPBs/SUBs and replacement of the 508s wasn't forseen as you seem to be claiming!
Class455
Established Member
- Joined
- 19 May 2016
- Messages
- 1,396
Thanks for posting, sad to see 5822 depart today as that was the last 455 I had and the last one to run on the Caterham branch
66788 will be today’s loco. By the end of this week there should be just 10 Southern 455’s. Should they all depart on schedule, the last pair should leave Southern on 2nd August
warwickshire
On Moderation
66788 at Patchway on the usual 5Q55 1033 Stewarts Lane to Newport Docks scrap move with the faithful Arlington vans and 455814 and 455822. For scrap . 455814 455822 now sadly in the scrap yard for scrap.
Only 12 left.
Only 12 left.
Class455
Established Member
- Joined
- 19 May 2016
- Messages
- 1,396
Today sees the final movement of a Southern Class 455 under its own power, when 455804 and 455819 return from Streatham Hill to Stewart’s Lane for the final time as 5T55.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
The end of an era for the childhood units of myself and a few others on this forum, and my favourite trains on the network. Sadly I’m working today otherwise I would have definitely gone and seen this, but the train has a 10 minute reversal dwell timed at London Victoria so there’s a good photo opportunity there.
Realtime Trains | 5T55 1050 Streatham Hill C.S.D. to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D | 13/07/2022
Real-time train running information for 5T55 1050 departure from Streatham Hill C.S.D. to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D on 13/07/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
The end of an era for the childhood units of myself and a few others on this forum, and my favourite trains on the network. Sadly I’m working today otherwise I would have definitely gone and seen this, but the train has a 10 minute reversal dwell timed at London Victoria so there’s a good photo opportunity there.
43096
On Moderation
- Joined
- 23 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 15,308
It’s not just the end of an era in that sense, it’s also the last main line run (excepting preserved units eg Hastings set) for the EE507 traction motors, after over 85 years serving the SR.Today sees the final movement of a Southern Class 455 under its own power, when 455804 and 455819 return from Streatham Hill to Stewart’s Lane for the final time as 5T55.
Realtime Trains | 5T55 1050 Streatham Hill C.S.D. to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D | 13/07/2022
Real-time train running information for 5T55 1050 departure from Streatham Hill C.S.D. to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D on 13/07/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
The end of an era for the childhood units of myself and a few others on this forum, and my favourite trains on the network. Sadly I’m working today otherwise I would have definitely gone and seen this, but the train has a 10 minute reversal dwell timed at London Victoria so there’s a good photo opportunity there.
Goldfish62
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 10,069
Wow, good point!
M-Train
Member
5T55 isn’t in its path now—what’s happened?
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
According to RTT, it hasn't run...
Class455
Established Member
- Joined
- 19 May 2016
- Messages
- 1,396
- Status