Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[dk1]

Seems to me that the RMT are hopeless at communication or being civilised. For some reason they just want to be bombastic, argumentive & disruptive. On the other hand ASLEF conduct themselves so much better & for that reason alone I'm glad to be a member. No doubt until all details imerge we will have snipes & infighting as always referring to money/bonus payments. This winds me up as I am the first to praise the guard & vote hands down for them to remain on every train I drive.

 

[GBradbury]

My personal take on this matter, having not read all posts thus far. It is just my opinion, I am not on either side.

The court case that Aslef lost last year nearly bankrupted them as they only had circa £1million in their reserves and they had to plead with GTR to let them pay in instalments.

Ever since they have been desperate to claw back some of that money. In order to do so they have agreed a one-off £5k payment to each driver for accepting the DOO proposals without further strikes. They will also instruct their members to accept a £5k pay rise, although instead of a salary increase this may be in the form of a booking on payment or payment for each DOO service worked.

Further strike action will ensue on Thameslink and Gatwick Express as they will now want the same allowances afforded to Southern drivers.

Aslef membership fees will increase.

The Rmt is largely seen as irrelevant, and any 313 workings can be swapped for 377 stock strike days, with other staff trained to operate the 171 routes, or buses used so the disruption caused by any Rmt strike is largely unnoticed. GTR may reinstate their offer of £2k to each member going to be an OBS or just let things run their course until Rmt get bored or fold.

 

[JamesTT]

Seems to me that the RMT are hopeless at communication or being civilised. For some reason they just want to be bombastic, argumentive & disruptive. On the other hand ASLEF conduct themselves so much better & for that reason alone I'm glad to be a member. No doubt until all details imerge we will have snipes & infighting as always referring to money/bonus payments. This winds me up as I am the first to praise the guard & vote hands down for them to remain on every train I drive.

As I said if additional payments bring Southern drivers inline with drivers already driving DOO trains on similar routes/distances etc then I think that is not an issue.

 

[redbutton]

Obviously I'm biased, but I don't think there's anything wrong with a payment in recognition of the increased workload and responsibility, since DOO driving is much more mentally taxing than DGO and it increases the risk of the driver having a safety-of-the-line incident substantially.

FWIW, I've also heard similar things to what has been reported here: (at least some) OBS to be made safety-critical, combined with technology upgrades for the older 377 fleet to bring them up to the 5-car and 387 standard.

What I haven't heard mentioned is a guarantee of a minimum level of training for OBS, since there is no such role defined in the rulebook. Will they have route knowledge? A second person on the train does more harm than good if they've only got mere days of training like some of the current OBSs.

Also, I really wanted to see a complete review of all DOO, not just the new routes. But I doubt that's in it.

Anyway, the agreement still has to be voted in by the membership, so let's not count our chickens before they've hatched.

 

[O L Leigh]

Pardon me, but why has this thread been retitled?

I appreciate that a lot of the discussions have surrounded the GTR Southern dispute, but I thought it was a general discussion about DOO and, therefore, not specifically linked to any negotiations or agreements between specific TOCs and unions.

O L Leigh

 

[BestWestern]

Pardon me, but why has this thread been retitled?

I appreciate that a lot of the discussions have surrounded the GTR Southern dispute, but I thought it was a general discussion about DOO and, therefore, not specifically linked to any negotiations or agreements between specific TOCs and unions.

O L Leigh

I think it's a different thread isn't it? I lost track along with the will to live quite a while back...

 

[Flying_Turtle]

so... money is the answer for insanity...

 

[The Ham]

so... money is the answer for insanity...

Why have we done off topic to start talking about Trump?!?

 

[TC60054]

I think it's a different thread isn't it? I lost track along with the will to live quite a while back...

At 11,000 odd posts, I assume it's the original DOO thread. I was confused when I couldn't find it yesterday at least...

 

[Deepgreen]

This morning I find myself in the depressing position of poacher-turned-gamekeeper, if you will.

I caught a train I regularly use (I won't specify it at the moment) from Redhill to Victoria. It was OBS-operated. The OBS made repeated, overly-cheerful and irritating repetitions of the recorded announcements, including clear and potentially useful exhortations to occupants of first class to hold first class tickets. It was a five car 377 and first class was at the back. She was situated (according her messages) in the third car. First class was occupied by a large number of people who clearly did not have first class tickets (I know because they did the obvious thing of checking standard class briefly and then sitting in first, OR simply plonking down, while on the phone, in the first seat they saw).

The glib and irritating OBS drivel was not backed up by any actual supervision (i.e. the 'S' in 'OBS') and first class remained unchecked throughout. The train was not especially busy and would have been easy to walk through. My over-riding thought was; why was the OBS not situated in the first class area, which was at the back of the train and therefore offered the best opportunity both for safety-based train observations/supervision (the train guard would traditionally be at the rear of the train to provide a staff presence, with the driver, at each end), and would have allowed first class monitoring/abuse deterrence?

Based on this and many other similar recent experiences I find myself thinking that the role is useless and the staff have petulantly (or ignorantly, through a lack of experience if they're new recruits) put themselves in a doomed position (by repeatedly and consistently not carrying out their specific duties), a view I would have found it unimaginable to hold a year or so ago. I have no way of knowing if this particular woman was a new recruit or a down-graded guard.

As I said, it's depressing. I remain of the view that the deployment of a properly-trained and active guard on every train is desirable for railway operation, but the current OBS regime is pathetic, seemingly brought about, at least in part, by their own (in)actions.

If the actual role of the OBS is simply to (badly) repeat recorded announcements, which has been my consistent and frequently-repeated recent experience, then the role cannot go soon enough, and save the railway (no matter who manages it) pointlessly-expended money.

What a mess.

 

[SA_900]

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 5 characters.

 

[physics34]

This morning I find myself in the depressing position of poacher-turned-gamekeeper, if you will.

I caught a train I regularly use (I won't specify it at the moment) from Redhill to Victoria. It was OBS-operated. The OBS made repeated, overly-cheerful and irritating repetitions of the recorded announcements, including clear and potentially useful exhortations to occupants of first class to hold first class tickets. It was a five car 377 and first class was at the back. She was situated (according her messages) in the third car. First class was occupied by a large number of people who clearly did not have first class tickets (I know because they did the obvious thing of checking standard class briefly and then sitting in first, OR simply plonking down, while on the phone, in the first seat they saw).

The glib and irritating OBS drivel was not backed up by any actual supervision (i.e. the 'S' in 'OBS') and first class remained unchecked throughout. The train was not especially busy and would have been easy to walk through. My over-riding thought was; why was the OBS not situated in the first class area, which was at the back of the train and therefore offered the best opportunity both for safety-based train observations/supervision (the train guard would traditionally be at the rear of the train to provide a staff presence, with the driver, at each end), and would have allowed first class monitoring/abuse deterrence?

Based on this and many other similar recent experiences I find myself thinking that the role is useless and the staff have petulantly (or ignorantly, through a lack of experience if they're new recruits) put themselves in a doomed position (by repeatedly and consistently not carrying out their specific duties), a view I would have found it unimaginable to hold a year or so ago. I have no way of knowing if this particular woman was a new recruit or a down-graded guard.

As I said, it's depressing. I remain of the view that the deployment of a properly-trained and active guard on every train is desirable for railway operation, but the current OBS regime is pathetic, seemingly brought about, at least in part, by their own (in)actions.

If the actual role of the OBS is simply to (badly) repeat recorded announcements, which has been my consistent and frequently-repeated recent experience, then the role cannot go soon enough, and save the railway (no matter who manages it) pointlessly-expended money.

What a mess.

no doubt there are a few that like the sond of their own voice, but so did some guards.

You can just tell the training has been minimal.

 

[Bishopstone]

If the actual role of the OBS is simply to (badly) repeat recorded announcements, which has been my consistent and frequently-repeated recent experience, then the role cannot go soon enough, and save the railway (no matter who manages it) pointlessly-expended money.

What a mess.

This mirrors my experience. In the period since the ASLEF overtime ban ceased, the only on-train ticket checks I have encountered were by retained Guards on the Seaford branch 313s.

On the main line, I've seen only one OBS passing through the train. He stopped to offer travel advice to another individual in first class, but didn't check the tickets of the assorted unlikely souls who had taken seats there.

Are the new hire OBS' revenue and Penalty Fare trained yet, I wonder? Are the former Guards PF trained/authorised? Or is this still a work in progress?

 

[Deepgreen]

This mirrors my experience. In the period since the ASLEF overtime ban ceased, the only on-train ticket checks I have encountered were by retained Guards on the Seaford branch 313s.

On the main line, I've seen only one OBS passing through the train. He stopped to offer travel advice to another individual in first class, but didn't check the tickets of the assorted unlikely souls who had taken seats there.

Are the new hire OBS' revenue and Penalty Fare trained yet, I wonder? Are the former Guards PF trained/authorised? Or is this still a work in progress?

Southern cannot be forgiven for the mess they have presided over. They have had ample time to train new or redeployed staff properly, but have seemingly failed to do so, despite the issue having had the highest possible public profile.

A disgrace.

 

[danbarnstall]

This mirrors my experience. In the period since the ASLEF overtime ban ceased, the only on-train ticket checks I have encountered were by retained Guards on the Seaford branch 313s.

On the main line, I've seen only one OBS passing through the train. He stopped to offer travel advice to another individual in first class, but didn't check the tickets of the assorted unlikely souls who had taken seats there.

Are the new hire OBS' revenue and Penalty Fare trained yet, I wonder? Are the former Guards PF trained/authorised? Or is this still a work in progress?

You'd think disgruntled or not those onboard staff would be doing all they can to be clearly visible to the public and to back up the need for a second person onboard (Ticket checks, settling disturbances, Safety). Shooting themselves in the foot by not doing their duties properly.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Anyone would think that GTR are setting the OBS role up to fail. If most OBS are staying in a specific place on the train, that sounds like they've been told to stay there.

As I've said all along, if the OBS role still exists in 2021 I'll eat my hat.

 

[313103]

This morning I find myself in the depressing position of poacher-turned-gamekeeper, if you will.

I caught a train I regularly use (I won't specify it at the moment) from Redhill to Victoria. It was OBS-operated. The OBS made repeated, overly-cheerful and irritating repetitions of the recorded announcements, including clear and potentially useful exhortations to occupants of first class to hold first class tickets. It was a five car 377 and first class was at the back. She was situated (according her messages) in the third car. First class was occupied by a large number of people who clearly did not have first class tickets (I know because they did the obvious thing of checking standard class briefly and then sitting in first, OR simply plonking down, while on the phone, in the first seat they saw).

The glib and irritating OBS drivel was not backed up by any actual supervision (i.e. the 'S' in 'OBS') and first class remained unchecked throughout. The train was not especially busy and would have been easy to walk through. My over-riding thought was; why was the OBS not situated in the first class area, which was at the back of the train and therefore offered the best opportunity both for safety-based train observations/supervision (the train guard would traditionally be at the rear of the train to provide a staff presence, with the driver, at each end), and would have allowed first class monitoring/abuse deterrence?

Based on this and many other similar recent experiences I find myself thinking that the role is useless and the staff have petulantly (or ignorantly, through a lack of experience if they're new recruits) put themselves in a doomed position (by repeatedly and consistently not carrying out their specific duties), a view I would have found it unimaginable to hold a year or so ago. I have no way of knowing if this particular woman was a new recruit or a down-graded guard.

As I said, it's depressing. I remain of the view that the deployment of a properly-trained and active guard on every train is desirable for railway operation, but the current OBS regime is pathetic, seemingly brought about, at least in part, by their own (in)actions.

If the actual role of the OBS is simply to (badly) repeat recorded announcements, which has been my consistent and frequently-repeated recent experience, then the role cannot go soon enough, and save the railway (no matter who manages it) pointlessly-expended money.

What a mess.

Could this be down to the fact that in the haste to rush into a DOO-P postition by GTR, they quickly introduced this obsolete grade without thought or process and basically more or less told the staff just to get on with it. By doing that it makes the members of staff look like idiots who dont know what they are doing, and with that passengers will complain and the company will start the process of getting rid of said role.

It has been totally designed to fail, because the ultimate aim is to reduce staff numbers.

 

[Bromley boy]

This morning I find myself in the depressing position of poacher-turned-gamekeeper, if you will.

I caught a train I regularly use (I won't specify it at the moment) from Redhill to Victoria. It was OBS-operated. The OBS made repeated, overly-cheerful and irritating repetitions of the recorded announcements, including clear and potentially useful exhortations to occupants of first class to hold first class tickets. It was a five car 377 and first class was at the back. She was situated (according her messages) in the third car. First class was occupied by a large number of people who clearly did not have first class tickets (I know because they did the obvious thing of checking standard class briefly and then sitting in first, OR simply plonking down, while on the phone, in the first seat they saw).

The glib and irritating OBS drivel was not backed up by any actual supervision (i.e. the 'S' in 'OBS') and first class remained unchecked throughout. The train was not especially busy and would have been easy to walk through. My over-riding thought was; why was the OBS not situated in the first class area, which was at the back of the train and therefore offered the best opportunity both for safety-based train observations/supervision (the train guard would traditionally be at the rear of the train to provide a staff presence, with the driver, at each end), and would have allowed first class monitoring/abuse deterrence?

Based on this and many other similar recent experiences I find myself thinking that the role is useless and the staff have petulantly (or ignorantly, through a lack of experience if they're new recruits) put themselves in a doomed position (by repeatedly and consistently not carrying out their specific duties), a view I would have found it unimaginable to hold a year or so ago. I have no way of knowing if this particular woman was a new recruit or a down-graded guard.

As I said, it's depressing. I remain of the view that the deployment of a properly-trained and active guard on every train is desirable for railway operation, but the current OBS regime is pathetic, seemingly brought about, at least in part, by their own (in)actions.

If the actual role of the OBS is simply to (badly) repeat recorded announcements, which has been my consistent and frequently-repeated recent experience, then the role cannot go soon enough, and save the railway (no matter who manages it) pointlessly-expended money.

What a mess.

Agreed it is a mess.

Do OBSs have the same powers to issue penalty fares/prosecution notices as (I assume) conductors had?

If not, any confrontation with passengers without tickets would be futile if the OBS has no power to issue a penalty fare or report the passenger for prosecution.

 

[Andrew32]

Deleted

 

[Deepgreen]

Agreed it is a mess.

Do OBSs have the same powers to issue penalty fares/prosecution notices as I (assume) conductors had?

If not, any confrontation with passengers without tickets would be futile if the OBS has no power to issue a penalty fare or report the passenger for prosecution.

I have previously been specifically advised by Southern that their conductors/guards did NOT have powers to issue penalty fares, etc.; merely to issue tickets or request moves to standard class accommodation.

It's hard to imagine any other scenario that the one suggested - a poorly-planned and executed role that is designed to be temporary. How temporary, in the light of recent 'agreements', remains to be seen, but it is seemingly providing no value at all at present. Indeed, on many occasions it is actually detracting from the service provision by providing wrong or mis-guided announcements!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rmt Regional Organiser Paul Cox:

"I am led to believe that central to the agreement is a guarantee of a second safety-critical person on the train.

That sounds a bit like, err, a guard?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Deepgreen]

Anyone would think that GTR are setting the OBS role up to fail. If most OBS are staying in a specific place on the train, that sounds like they've been told to stay there.

As I've said all along, if the OBS role still exists in 2021 I'll eat my hat.

Could we see a picture of your hat please? Not that I expect you to have to fulfil your promise!

 

[Bromley boy]

I have previously been specifically advised by Southern that their conductors/guards did NOT have powers to issue penalty fares, etc.; merely to issue tickets or request moves to standard class accommodation.

That's interesting, I'd always assumed guards had this power in reserve for more serious matters that couldn't be dealt with by simply asking passengers to move seats etc.

I imagine all that would be required would be some training on how to collect evidential statements, issuing cautions in accordance with PACE etc.

 

[AlterEgo]

That's interesting, I'd always assumed guards had this power in reserve for more serious matters that couldn't be dealt with by simply asking passengers to move seats etc.

I imagine all that would be required would be some training on how to collect evidential statements, issuing cautions in accordance with PACE etc.

Generally, across Britain, guards cannot issue PFs or (formally) report for prosecution, or conduct interviews.

The training you outline is quite extensive and that's what revenue protection inspectors/officers do; it's a separate grade with a quite different skill set. PACE training is in itself a complete minefield.

 

[whoosh]

My over-riding thought was; why was the OBS not situated in the first class area, which was at the back of the train and therefore offered the best opportunity both for safety-based train observations/supervision (the train guard would traditionally be at the rear of the train to provide a staff presence, with the driver, at each end), and would have allowed first class monitoring/abuse deterrence.

Could it be that they wish to position themselves near the disabled area, in order to assist anyone?

 

[Deepgreen]

Could it be that they wish to position themselves near the disabled area, in order to assist anyone?

It is, of course, possible, but the role is supposed to include ticket checking, etc. (i.e. train supervision), not staying in one particular area on the off-chance that someone may need assistance.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Could we see a picture of your hat please? Not that I expect you to have to fulfil your promise!

It's a tweed trilby.

No, really, it really is.

 

[ainsworth74]

As I've said all along, if the OBS role still exists in 2021 I'll eat my hat.

Actually my money is on them making it to 2021 and then being ditched at the change of franchise as my gamble is that that the DfT will mandate the final act of this farce in the new franchise agreement that will be due at the end of 2021. They will, for the meantime, accept the current proposed situation as being less than ideal (from their perspective) but a big step in the right direction and just see it as unfinished business to be sorted in 2021 and the new franchise.

 

[hwl]

Actually my money is on them making it to 2021 and then being ditched at the change of franchise as my gamble is that that the DfT will mandate the final act of this farce in the new franchise agreement that will be due at the end of 2021. They will, for the meantime, accept the current proposed situation as being less than ideal (from their perspective) but a big step in the right direction and just see it as unfinished business to be sorted in 2021 and the new franchise.

Yep 2022 would be far better date to set for hat eating

 

[Tetchytyke]

That's pretty much my thinking too, ainsworth74, except I think they'll want GTR to take the pain of reputation damage before the shiny new franchise starts. Let's face it, GTR's reputation can't get any worse.

ETA Not to mention that if GTR get rid of them it sorts out a lot of TUPE trouble for the new franchisee. I think DafT will learn their lesson from this, and from what I expect will happen at Northern, and get the dirty work done at the end not the start of a franchise.