Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Solent&Wessex]

No appendix though

The appendices are often the most important bit!

 

[jwos]

There you go.
And there goes safety as we know it on the railway.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Does the driver vote have to be a straight majority if favour? Wouldnt come as a great surprise if they dont sign up to it.

I suspect most would accept no OBS on occasions but those occasions would be limited to cases where the booked OBS had gone off-duty during the day sick, or major disruption.

It would seem incorrect that they should run with out the due to rostering errors or if diagramming is so tight they cant get from one train to another in time as that would effectively be GTR trying to save money by reducing staffing

 

[Phil.]

If you dispense completely with on train revenue collection you'll need more staff on barriers etc at most stations (first to last train) in order to prevent fare evasion growing hugely once word gets around nobody ever checks their tickets /passes

The RMT weren't selling their claim on the basis of revenue protection. They were selling themselves as retainers if train safety. The RMT have been found out. The manglement were selling their proposal of making unnecessary Guards more passenger focussed on service and revenue protection when the Drivers took over door duties.

 

[AlterEgo]

So, as I predicted, a deal on terms was done by February. Interesting going back through my old posts on this thread:

...to see the same old story. RMT strike, ASLEF go in and burgle their houses while they're on the picket line.

ASLEF have been eating the RMT's dinner for years.

At present, the RMT reminds me of the captain of a sinking warship standing on the crow's nest haphazardly firing his service revolver at the flotilla of battleships which have sunk him.

Perhaps next time out they will try a different approach. Or hopefully, the members won't elect such loonies to take the tiller.

This is because GTR's strategy is to isolate the RMT to the benefit of ASLEF.

This strategy is going to be a successful one because of the PR benefits:

- GTR can claim they cut a fair deal and aren't intransigent buggers at all
- ASLEF will get their pound of flesh (and probably a pay or terms deal)
- RMT are industrially and politically isolated, the real targets of this strategy, being shown as militants who couldn't strike a deal

This is the endgame on Southern.

ASLEF have a very long track record of "opposing" major change, only to eventually accept it for a good deal. ASLEF are pragmatic and have been assisting with the rollout of DOO - a dogmatic Union would have refused to cooperate.

I look forward to reading about the deal they eventually cut. Same old same old. There's a good reason the ASLEF never merged with the RMT.

Also note that ASLEF agree to work with GTR to facilitate the rollout of DOO and its technical mitigation - something they've already been doing despite posters repeatedly telling me that wasn't true.

Numerous posters have claimed that ASLEF will never agree to any form of DOO. Well, shame. "The driver is responsible for the control, movement and dispatch of the train" - agreed and now to be put to ballot.

ASLEF members cannot afford to reject the deal. This would make ASLEF's representatives look weak and illegitimate and certainly not result in a more favourable deal.

RMT members who went on strike and lost 28 days' pay. I told you so. I took a lot of pelters for calling out the strike as the wrong mechanism for you to use but I feel vindicated now. I feel sorry for those members, as I'm sure on the ground it may have seemed there was no other alternative, but the sympathy I have is limited.

I called the whole strategy and outcome on this months ago.

 

[AlterEgo]

I also note in the text of the full agreement that as a result of these talks, GTR and ASLEF will forge a new Drivers' Agreement that replaces the old DRI...on conclusion of 2016's pay talks (a separate issue). I'll be looking for that pay deal with interest, and 2017's. Remember the driver is taking on increasing responsibility.

I also note that ASLEF managed to get displaced freight drivers first dibs on jobs with GTR (subject to location and other factors you'd expect).

 

[BestWestern]

So, as I predicted, a deal on terms was done by February. Interesting going back through my old posts on this thread:

....

RMT members who went on strike and lost 28 days' pay. I told you so. I took a lot of pelters for calling out the strike as the wrong mechanism for you to use but I feel vindicated now.

...the sympathy I have is limited.

I called the whole strategy and outcome on this months ago.

You really shouldn't take it so personally, it's a discussion forum not a competition.

Perhaps you could start a gloating thread if you liked? I can think of one or two other posters who'd happily share it with you.

Striking was the right - and the only - thing members could do. Once again, we see talk of 'RMT members' striking and the apparent deliberate forgetting that Aslef were out as well. Nobody wanted it. But the government were at the helm, and victory was always going to be a long shot.

What is a game-changer is Turncoat Whelan completely selling his own members out, as well of course as the RMT. He encouraged his own people to strike and has now folded having seemingly won nothing. My personal feeling is that he has made himself look a fool and should now be replaced.

 

[mandub]

Knew Aslef would have to accept in the end. But hoped they'd push for an agreement that certain trains wouldn't run without 2nd member. Maybe that just isn't a feasible position to try to obtain?

I know its coming to us at Northern next and my personal hope is (was) that we could negotiate something like - no late night weekend trains would run single manned, or when special events like large pop concerts etc.

 

[AlterEgo]

You really shouldn't take it so personally, it's a discussion forum not a competition.

Perhaps you could start a gloating thread if you liked? I can think of one or two other posters who'd happily share it with you.

Striking was the right - and the only - thing members could do. Once again, we see talk of 'RMT members' striking and the apparent deliberate forgetting that Aslef were out as well. Nobody wanted it. But the government were at the helm, and victory was always going to be a long shot.

What is a game-changer is Turncoat Whelan completely selling his own members out, as well of course as the RMT. He encouraged his own people to strike and has now folded having seemingly won nothing. My personal feeling is that he has made himself look a fool and should now be replaced.

I'm not gloating. I'm passing informed comment on the deal (which it should be noted is still subject to a vote).

I am quite happy to accept on this forum where I am wrong or less well-informed and as a consequence of that I think I am entitled to highlight, in this thread, how I have been exactly correct. I have been correct despite being told quite directly and sincerely that I had no idea what I was on about, that I should "stick up for former colleagues on the railway", that ASLEF wouldn't ever cut a deal, etc, etc. I said time and time again that the RMT were encircled and I said repeatedly what the (fairly obvious, to me) strategy appeared to be.

The RMT and its members lose. And not just the deal - they lost a full 28 days' pay, they lost credibility, they lost political legitimacy and they lost the public. It is a fatal blow for a union in a slow and possibly terminal decline.

Game over. ASLEF ate the RMT's dinner. Again.

 

[AlterEgo]

Knew Aslef would have to accept in the end. But hoped they'd push for an agreement that certain trains wouldn't run without 2nd member. Maybe that just isn't a feasible position to try to obtain?

I know its coming to us at Northern next and my personal hope is (was) that we could negotiate something like - no late night weekend trains would run single manned, or when special events like large pop concerts etc.

Indeed this is the only thing about the deal that I am surprised about. I was confident ASLEF would secure a second person even if they weren't safety crit.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Numerous posters have claimed that ASLEF will never agree to any form of DOO. Well, shame. "The driver is responsible for the control, movement and dispatch of the train" - agreed and now to be put to ballot.

...

RMT members who went on strike and lost 28 days' pay. I told you so. I took a lot of pelters for calling out the strike as the wrong mechanism for you to use but I feel vindicated now. I feel sorry for those members, as I'm sure on the ground it may have seemed there was no other alternative, but the sympathy I have is limited.

You really shouldn't take it so personally, it's a discussion forum not a competition.

Perhaps you could start a gloating thread if you liked? I can think of one or two other posters who'd happily share it with you.

...

What is a game-changer is Turncoat Whelan completely selling his own members out, as well of course as the RMT. He encouraged his own people to strike and has now folded having seemingly won nothing. My personal feeling is that he has made himself look a fool and should now be replaced.

I am a Guard elsewhere in the country, and I could see exactly what was going to happen too. I didn't want it to happen, but I knew what the end result was going to be, it was inevitable. I don't feel the need to gloat about it either.

Forgetting 1982 and all that, Aslef have a long history of not giving a stuff about what their own members actually want, let alone anyone else in the industry or outside it. I am sure many staff in different companies can think of examples where driver members have been stitched up by Aslef head office, who seem to make agreements and promise things to TOC management without the agreement or often even consultation of the company representatives. I can certainly think of numerous examples in recent years in my own TOC where drivers have had things they didn't want foisted upon them due to dodgy deals cooked up by Aslef EC in London. The only surprising thing in this case is that they are actually giving the members at Southern a vote on the matter.

Knew Aslef would have to accept in the end. But hoped they'd push for an agreement that certain trains wouldn't run without 2nd member. Maybe that just isn't a feasible position to try to obtain?

I know its coming to us at Northern next and my personal hope is (was) that we could negotiate something like - no late night weekend trains would run single manned, or when special events like large pop concerts etc.

I suspect, sadly, that if this agreement goes through it will be seen as the nationwide standard that will be hard to change or resist anywhere.

 

[Dave1987]

Significant concessions by both sides. Both sides conceded it got nasty and acknowledged that they should have been having serious talks instead of taking action against each other. Both sides have stated a desire to repair relations but acknowledge this will take time. Both sides have stated a desire to make this agreement work. If the agreement is stuck to in good faith from both sides I see it as a good compromise. Others may disagree but so be it.

 

[68000]

Why the ire directed at ASLEF? We have been constantly told that a unions first duty is to get the best deal for their members

 

[Richard1960]

Sad to see one of the two main rail unions attack the other,they will be like ferrets fighting in a sack if it gets much more bitter at southern sad day indeed.:cry:

Southern and the government will be the ones running away laughing.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I think ASLEF has shot the RMT's fox.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Significant concessions by both sides. .

Perhaps you could enlighten me about what significant concessions GTR have made?

Why the ire directed at ASLEF? We have been constantly told that a unions first duty is to get the best deal for their members

But they haven't have they? Well, obviously the members will decide in a vote, but they told their members, the public and the media it was all about safety. Their own members lost pay on strike days. They lost pay by not working overtime. Yet I fail to see what is good for their members about this deal? Their members said they didn't want any more DOO. Their members said they wanted somebody else on the train. They made public statements about how much has changed since DOO was introduced and how it simply wasn't safe any more as the network and each train was so much busier. But now they have proposed an agreement which does not seem to meet their members aspirations and does precisely nothing about the safety and second person they seemed so insistent on a few months ago.

 

[Richard1960]

I think ASLEF has shot the RMT's fox.

Basically yes.

 

[68000]

Perhaps you could enlighten me about what significant concessions GTR have made?



But they haven't have they? Well, obviously the members will decide in a vote, but they told their members, the public and the media it was all about safety. Their own members lost pay on strike days. They lost pay by not working overtime. Yet I fail to see what is good for their members about this deal? Their members said they didn't want any more DOO. Their members said they wanted somebody else on the train. They made public statements about how much has changed since DOO was introduced and how it simply wasn't safe any more as the network and each train was so much busier. But now they have proposed an agreement which does not seem to meet their members aspirations and does precisely nothing about the safety and second person they seemed so insistent on a few months ago.

The safety argument was always a red herring as DOO is demonstably safe

 

[Robertj21a]

I think ASLEF has shot the RMT's fox.

I'm getting quite lost what the RMT think they can achieve by continuing with their action. I might have seen them still in with a chance under Bob Crow but the current leadership are lacking his skills and general ability.

 

[Class377/5]

The safety argument was always a red herring as DOO is demonstably safe

Safe is a very flexible term. And no-one in the industry is saying DOO is prefectly safe. In fact they are saying its as safe as guard dispatch with differnet challenges not safer.

The industry views dispatch of trains as one of the most dangerous things going as accidents are easy with some not actively the railways fault (not looking where you going) but is actively trying to improve things where ever possible (like new stations requiring straighter platforms).

 

[driver666]

So what financial payment are the drivers getting for agreeing to this?

 

[SA_900]

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 5 characters.

 

[Dave1987]

Perhaps you could enlighten me about what significant concessions GTR have made?

If you read that agreement you will see there are a lot of concessions ASLEF got to protection their members and address their concerns.

 

[Dave1987]

The safety argument was always a red herring as DOO is demonstably safe

No it wasn't a red herring at all. There were genuine concerns if you took the time to read those concerns published in various media.

 

[a_c_skinner]

and I think they've got concessions that address much of those concerns, though I am not technical enough to be sure.

 

[embers25]

Just to be clear. I can see where ASLEF caved big time but not where Southern caved to the same degree!! As someone else said, each union should first and foremost be looking out for their members which is what ASLEF have done here and so the RMT should be commending them for upholding their union values!! The RMT goal to bring down the Government just took a major pasting and they weren't even there...good old divide and conquer at its best!! Mick Cash really looked like he needed more toys as he'd run out of those in his pram

One thing that should come out of all of this is that the SNP should NOT be allowed to try to play politics with the transport system in the rest of the UK any more as if they'd not caved to the RMT in Scotland this mess would probably not have happened in the first place as the RMT couldn't have kept using Scotrail as an example.It's about time the SNP took some responsibility for their role in this dispute and more importantly they now need to explain to the Scottish taxpayers why the agreed to the unnecessary funding of the second member of onboard staff on safety grounds which were clearly unfounded. How many millions will that cost them in future and how many additional delays will they have caused.

I'm sure "some" may try to influence to the drivers to vote this deal down now but, even if they succeed, the truth is now out that the RMT have done nothing but play political games with travellers based on unproven safety claims.

On to Northern next, then GWR then SWT etc...at some point surely the RMT members must start seeing sense and desert them in droves until they are finally defeated like the NUM...they played politics with travellers lives and their members pay packets and lost misreably. We now have OBS's and we will have trains without OBS's in the circumstances that southern originally suggested. The only thing missing is for someone to finally put in writing in all rail franchises that an OBS is NOT safety critical and neither is a guard, end of, then the war will be won and the truth will be finally out there for all those people that swallowed the safety critical rubbish. A guard is nice to have, NOT safety critical end of discussion...I think that's pretty much the gist of what ASLEF have agreed without formally saying it! Shame it took months of a pointless dispute for common sense to prevail.

 

[embers25]

If you read that agreement you will see there are a lot of concessions ASLEF got to protection their members and address their concerns.

There really aren't compared to what ASLEF wanted and certainly not compared to what the RMT wanted.

 

[Dave1987]

Just to be clear. I can see where ASLEF caved big time but not where Southern caved to the same degree!! As someone else said, each union should first and foremost be looking out for their members which is what ASLEF have done here and so the RMT should be commending them for upholding their union values!! The RMT goal to bring down the Government just took a major pasting and they weren't even there...good old divide and conquer at its best!! Mick Cash really looked like he needed more toys as he'd run out of those in his pram

One thing that should come out of all of this is that the SNP should NOT be allowed to try to play politics with the transport system in the rest of the UK any more as if they'd not caved to the RMT in Scotland this mess would probably not have happened in the first place as the RMT couldn't have kept using Scotrail as an example.It's about time the SNP took some responsibility for their role in this dispute and more importantly they now need to explain to the Scottish taxpayers why the agreed to the unnecessary funding of the second member of onboard staff on safety grounds which were clearly unfounded. How many millions will that cost them in future and how many additional delays will they have caused.

I'm sure "some" may try to influence to the drivers to vote this deal down now but, even if they succeed, the truth is now out that the RMT have done nothing but play political games with travellers based on unproven safety claims.

On to Northern next, then GWR then SWT etc...at some point surely the RMT members must start seeing sense and desert them in droves until they are finally defeated like the NUM...they played politics with travellers lives and their members pay packets and lost misreably. We now have OBS's and we will have trains without OBS's in the circumstances that southern originally suggested. The only thing missing is for someone to finally put in writing in all rail franchises that an OBS is NOT safety critical and neither is a guard, end of, then the war will be won and the truth will be finally out there for all those people that swallowed the safety critical rubbish. A guard is nice to have, NOT safety critical end of discussion...I think that's pretty much the gist of what ASLEF have agreed without formally saying it! Shame it took months of a pointless dispute for common sense to prevail.

Suggest you actually read the agreement instead of posting rubbish.

 

[Dave1987]

There really aren't compared to what ASLEF wanted and certainly not compared to what the RMT wanted.

Wrong but never mind.

 

[Robertj21a]

So, what has happened to all those posters on this thread who have continually stated that the OBS role would be dead in a very short time - and laughed at anyone else who thought otherwise ?

:roll: