Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Antman]

Seeing as actual Southern staff have posted on here that they don't know if the OBS role will last 3 or 20 years or whatever, how can you possibly know better than them what's truly happening ?:cry:

Exactly, this dispute seems to be about something which may or may not happen some time in the future.
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Dont worry, if this gets implemented at Southern I am sure it will be written into the next SWT franchise, especially as a lot of the inner suburban routes will be transferring to CrossRail and I am sure they wont have guards, OBMs or any other staff except the driver on board!
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What if there is disruption and the OBM is running late?
Train runs without them!

What about the facts that the OBMs wont be given any rest days or overtime, what if the booked OBM is on holiday or sick etc?
The train will run without one!

What if there is a vacant line on the roster because the OBM had retired?
Do you think they will employ another one or just run without one?

etc etc, but I think you get the gist of it!

Although Javelins on HS1 cannot run without an OBM.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I've heard other things about the meeting, such as what power the team GTR sent had, but only through the jungle telegraph..

From your own personal perspective, would you say that "the jungle telegraph" is always 100% correct in what it says?

 

[ungreat]

This is the point; aside from the safety issue we also have the job security issue. DOO is designed to save money. You clearly don't save money by continuing to pay a Guard the same whilst at the same time transferring his duties to the Driver, and very probably paying him more. That is an increase, not a saving. Nobody has yet been able to offer any long term guarantee about any of these 'substitute' jobs for displaced Guards, and it is very highly likely that these roles are merely a short term ploy to try and appease staff and encourage them to quietly take on roles which suit the wider agenda. Once Guards have been maneuvered into a position where they are no longer a requirement for the trains to run, management have open season to then do whatever they like with them - most likely the forcing upon them of new, far inferior contracts, or possibly even wholesale redundancy (as London Overground have done). For all the public statements of holy innocence by Mr Charles Horton, he is unable to offer his staff any assurances that they have any sort of long term employment with his company. He won't deliver any significant cost savings - the sole point of his DOO campaign - unless he takes far more drastic action further down the line. It does not take a genius to appreciate where the concerns lie, and how seriois those concerns are.

Those who pour scorn on the actions of striking Guards need to ask themselves this; if your employer wanted to reduce your pay, attack your livelihood, damage your ability to pay your mortgage and put food in your children's mouths, would you do nothing?!

This for me says it all...Well said that man/woman!
I really miss my second pair of eyes/colleague/mate/back up when the brown stuff hits the fan.Extra pay is NO substitute for the Guard
I support the Southern Guards wholeheartedly.
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I'm not sure on that front. I see it more on the lines of "it happens to me" so "it should happen to everyone" rather than taking the stance of "it shouldn't happen"

Sadly I think you are very,very correct
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Here is page 2 of the letter. Enjoy.

Absolutely despicable.

 

[74A]

this is the point; aside from the safety issue we also have the job security issue. Doo is designed to save money. You clearly don't save money by continuing to pay a guard the same whilst at the same time transferring his duties to the driver, and very probably paying him more. That is an increase, not a saving.

Yes there will be savings. As Conductors leave retire etc then the new jobs will pay less. Also no cancellations when no conductor available. However Southern have said current conductors can stay on at their current salary. I think thats quite a reasonable offer.

nobody has yet been able to offer any long term guarantee about any of these 'substitute' jobs for displaced guards, and it is very highly likely that these roles are merely a short term ploy to try and appease staff and encourage them to quietly take on roles which suit the wider agenda.

Indeed nothing lasts for ever. However that is what negotiations are for. In Glasgow they have had a second person rostered to DOO trains for over 20 years so such an agreement can be made.

who pour scorn on the actions of striking guards need to ask themselves this; if your employer wanted to reduce your pay, attack your livelihood, damage your ability to pay your mortgage and put food in your children's mouths, would you do nothing?!

Honestly anybody who has joined in the role of a guard since 1984 must have realised that their position would come under threat at some point in the future. The best thing would be to negotiate the best T&C of the new role.

Since DOO started being extended a few years ago I am not aware the the RMT have managed to stop it happening. They have had strikes but the companies have gone ahead. Money that could possibly have been used to get a better deal for their members has instead been used to pay for strikes so I don't really see what they achieved. (London Overground DOO came in, ScotRail DOO came in and Heathrow Express requirement for second member of staff was removed)

12234566

 

[Dave1987]

Yes there will be savings. As Conductors leave retire etc then the new jobs will pay less. Also no cancellations when no conductor available. However Southern have said current conductors can stay on at their current salary. I think thats quite a reasonable offer.



Indeed nothing lasts for ever. However that is what negotiations are for. In Glasgow they have had a second person rostered to DOO trains for over 20 years so such an agreement can be made.






Honestly anybody who has joined in the role of a guard since 1984 must have realised that their position would come under threat at some point in the future. The best thing would be to negotiate the best T&C of the new role.

Since DOO started being extended a few years ago I am not aware the the RMT have managed to stop it happening. They have had strikes but the companies have gone ahead. Money that could possibly have been used to get a better deal for their members has instead been used to pay for strikes so I don't really see what they achieved. (London Overground DOO came in, ScotRail DOO came in and Heathrow Express requirement for second member of staff was removed)

12234566

Two things I would point out to you.

Firstly, the GTR PR keeps saying the the only difference the OBS role will have is the driver controls the doors. So by their own PR that means they should still be PTS, traction and rules trained. So even new starters to this role should still be paid the same rate. Or the GTR PR about the only change being the driver controlling the doors is nonsense to appease Joe Public.

Secondly, if this is all about better customer service then surely GTR should be saying this OBS role is going to be rostered to *every* DOO service and not just the ones that run with a guard currently.

 

[tony6499]

Two things I would point out to you.

Firstly, the GTR PR keeps saying the the only difference the OBS role will have is the driver controls the doors. So by their own PR that means they should still be PTS, traction and rules trained. So even new starters to this role should still be paid the same rate. Or the GTR PR about the only change being the driver controlling the doors is nonsense to appease Joe Public.

Secondly, if this is all about better customer service then surely GTR should be saying this OBS role is going to be rostered to *every* DOO service and not just the ones that run with a guard currently.

The OBS won't be on a train it is running late, the OBS is sick, is on leave etc. There will be no overtime so if an OBS turn is uncovered then it will stay uncovered

 

[BestWestern]

Yes there will be savings. As Conductors leave retire etc then the new jobs will pay less. Also no cancellations when no conductor available. However Southern have said current conductors can stay on at their current salary. I think thats quite a reasonable offer.

There is naivety, and then there is the real world.

 

[grumblingalong]

I think GTR took offence at the "TOC Management" post on here a few weeks ago and are having a tantrum. We only have ourselves to blame.


Sarcasm, for those who can't work it out by themselves.

 

[Agent_c]

Yes there will be savings. As Conductors leave retire etc then the new jobs will pay less. Also no cancellations when no conductor available. However Southern have said current conductors can stay on at their current salary. I think thats quite a reasonable offer.

If we presume for a moment that any other argument than personal self interest is just a pretense (and I don't accept that it is).

Then what we're left with is a situation where you're asking a member of staff to accept being downgraded from "Essential" to "optional".

Funny thing about "optional" staff... They disappear. Just like those checkouts that were replaced with self service machines.

As we've seen from Govia's actions in the GatEx disupute, their word isn't worth the paper it may or may not be written on, and in any case today's TOC can't bind another.

Once someone is optional, they soon become surplus to requirements, then reduntant.

So even if we view it in such narrow self interested terms, the strike is justified in their long term interest, even if the pay is staying the same - it ensures job security.

 

[JamesTT]

I have had a few half baked ideas already here are some more.

1.GTR agree to increase the number of conductors they are keeping by 33%. This will give more resilience for sick, holiday and cover in disruption.

2. OBS staff will be safety critical they will have full PTS, traction knowledge and training to assist in evacuation. They will not have route knowledge and won't close the doors.

3.Trains will have OBS staff booked on the diagrams. If the OBS staff is not available the train will have only call at staffed stations.

 

[Agent_c]

I have had a few half baked ideas already here are some more.

1.GTR agree to increase the number of conductors they are keeping by 33%. This will give more resilience for sick, holiday and cover in disruption.

2. OBS staff will be safety critical they will have full PTS, traction knowledge and training to assist in evacuation. They will not have route knowledge and won't close the doors.

3.Trains will have OBS staff booked on the diagrams. If the OBS staff is not available the train will have only call at staffed stations.

Isn't route knowledge part and parcel of being able to assist an evacuation?

 

[sarahj]

Just on twitter:

Why is my train missing out stops?

The in-train cameras have failed
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I have had a few half baked ideas already here are some more.

1.GTR agree to increase the number of conductors they are keeping by 33%. This will give more resilience for sick, holiday and cover in disruption.

2. OBS staff will be safety critical they will have full PTS, traction knowledge and training to assist in evacuation. They will not have route knowledge and won't close the doors.

3.Trains will have OBS staff booked on the diagrams. If the OBS staff is not available the train will have only call at staffed stations.

I will just give a quick note to part of this:

When FCC, as it was, agreed to work 12 car DOO on the BML, the agreement was to stop at staffed stations. This was Brighton-Haywards Heath-Three Bridges-Gatwick-East Croydon. And so it started.
and then it was: disrpution, can you stop there, can you stop here
and then, well you stopped there then, you might as well stop now.

 

[Agent_c]

Just on twitter:

Why is my train missing out stops?

The in-train cameras have failed

Someone really needs to bundle up these examples - the SASPAD, Trains missing stops due to tech faults, etc, and produce a newsletter to hand out around the next strike.

 

[JamesTT]

Isn't route knowledge part and parcel of being able to assist an evacuation?

Ok it will be limited assistance bit better than none though.

 

[Agent_c]

Ok it will be limited assistance bit better than none though.

Is being evacuated via an unsafe route better than nothing? Not always.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Just on twitter:

Why is my train missing out stops?

The in-train cameras have failed.

Another example of the safety regulations involved with DOO.
Stops at manned stations only.

A less frequent occurrence than a Conductor going sick....

 

[Agent_c]

Another example of the safety regulations involved with DOO.
Stops at manned stations only.

A less frequent occurrence than a Conductor going sick....

I imagine its also easier to replace a Guard at short notice than taking a whole train out of service for a day at least.

 

[JamesTT]

Is being evacuated via an unsafe route better than nothing? Not always.

Ok knowledge that they can assist under guidance better than knowing nothing?

 

[LBSCR Times]

I imagine its also easier to replace a Guard at short notice than taking a whole train out of service for a day at least.

Often not....

Usually one round trip and then replaced or rectified.

 

[Dave1987]

Often not....

Usually one round trip and then replaced or rectified.

If they can fix it or have the spare stock. During the peak TOCs don't have stock sat around doing nothing.

 

[philthetube]

On the whole positive. You get the odd one or two. The company says everyone is against us. And the stuff that the twitter team put out, woah.

With our passes gone, looking forward to the following at gateline:

Can you let me out, my ticket does not work
Sorry, I'm stuck myself.

But it's all nice, Southern have sent an email to other rail companies that we don't have passes anymore and to make sure our duty diagramme's correspond to the train we are on. Looking forward to our first PF's or even MG11's when at work. Looking forward to posting in D&P on here.

I don't see a PF issue, I see I have no money and am stuck, get me a taxi issue. By the way, you had better cancel my next train.

 

[SPADTrap]

Another example of the safety regulations involved with DOO.
Stops at manned stations only.

A less frequent occurrence than a Conductor going sick....

Not on a 'lectrostar it isn't

Until those stations are no longer manned with safety critical dispatch staff, then what? The 'station host' comes out to book taxis for the passengers? What an utterly forward thinking and future proof railway we strive for when our emotions get in the way. Its all good until the train blats through where you want off, until it affects you.

It isn't about not stopping there because it isn't safe, it just isn't possible. Flexible improvement of the customer experience right?

 

[LBSCR Times]

Not on a 'lectrostar it isn't

Until those stations are no longer manned with safety critical dispatch staff, then what? The 'station host' comes out to book taxis for the passengers? What an utterly forward thinking and future proof railway we strive for when our emotions get in the way. Its all good until the train blats through where you want off, until it affects you.

It isn't about not stopping there because it isn't safe, it just isn't possible. Flexible improvement of the customer experience right?

Been happening for years on the TL route.
And if a train does stop and there are no staff, then the driver is advised to carry out a safe method of working, which usually involves manually closing each set of doors!
In any case, its no different to running fast to make up time, the customer is inconvenienced.

Perhaps the RMT should concentrate their efforts towards having (competent) staff at stations, which the general public would support more, but then the rail unions have never really been interested in station staff.

 

[Stow]

Perhaps the RMT should concentrate their efforts towards having (competent) staff at stations, which the general public would support more, but then the rail unions have never really been interested in station staff.

Could not agree more, RMT grades such as fitters, station staff are increasing due to busier stations and more trains, yet RMT seem to only care about guards/conductors, rather than ensuring new roles have decent pay and conditions.

More jobs (net) can only be good for the RMT, yet they continue to focus on the negative.

 

[Carlisle]

Could not agree more, RMT grades such as fitters, station staff are increasing due to busier stations and more trains, yet RMT seem to only care about guards/conductors, rather than ensuring new roles have decent pay and conditions.

More jobs (net) can only be good for the RMT, yet they continue to focus on the negative.

Yes it certainly seems that way, whatever happens on Southern it seems they have a war planned on Northern whenever they attempt to open negotiations

 

[JamesTT]

Could not agree more, RMT grades such as fitters, station staff are increasing due to busier stations and more trains, yet RMT seem to only care about guards/conductors, rather than ensuring new roles have decent pay and conditions.

More jobs (net) can only be good for the RMT, yet they continue to focus on the negative.

I think the issue is as there are a number of agency and managers that can be called on as contingency in the event of a strike the station staff don't carry much of a bargaining tool.
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Another example of the safety regulations involved with DOO.
Stops at manned stations only.

A less frequent occurrence than a Conductor going sick....

This is where my idea of them keeping 1/3 more conductors than they are planning would help. Additional spare conductors could jump on a DOO service with Camera fault and at least take it as far as London Bridge/Whatever station nearest to Blackfriars Southern Guards sign to if it is a Thameslink, or all the way to Victoria/London Bridge if Southern
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Yes it certainly seems that way, whatever happens on Southern it seems they have a war planned on Northern whenever they attempt to open negotiations

I think both sides need their heads banging together.

 

[tony6499]

Been happening for years on the TL route.
And if a train does stop and there are no staff, then the driver is advised to carry out a safe method of working, which usually involves manually closing each set of doors!
In any case, its no different to running fast to make up time, the customer is inconvenienced.

Perhaps the RMT should concentrate their efforts towards having (competent) staff at stations, which the general public would support more, but then the rail unions have never really been interested in station staff.

So why are they balloting the station staff about job changes and losses then ?

 

[D1009]

Do we know if ASLEF is actually going to ballot over this issue. The last thing they put on their website is is 8 April from their website :-

As a result of this threat to impose 12 car DOO(P) working without agreement GTR has been informed of our intention to ballot our driver members employed on Southern and Gatwick Express for industrial action.
The formal balloting process will begin as soon as possible. If you have any questions, please contact your company council representatives.

But nothing further if they have actually started the ballot or not.

I've picked up on another thread that since Tuesday a 12 car diagram has been running on Gatwick Express. Any news from ASLEF?

 

[JamesTT]

So why are they balloting the station staff about job changes and losses then ?

Maybe they feel bad about conductors losing their perks, can't possibly have lowly station staff having free parking and travel on the whole Govia network, when the conductors have lost that benefit. I bet the management are quaking at the prospect of a station staff strike. They have plenty of contingency dispatchers and there are a fair number of station staff not in a union.

 

[SPADTrap]

Been happening for years on the TL route.
And if a train does stop and there are no staff, then the driver is advised to carry out a safe method of working, which usually involves manually closing each set of doors!
In any case, its no different to running fast to make up time, the customer is inconvenienced.

Perhaps the RMT should concentrate their efforts towards having (competent) staff at stations, which the general public would support more, but then the rail unions have never really been interested in station staff.

Having done this 'safe method of working' many times I can tell you from real experience it isn't safe, at all. I'm surprised its even rule book complient, but I suspect its one of them 'when it works for them' situations.

The other day I was doing exactly this 'safe method' because despite their being 1 dispatcher present there wasn't a second meaning they couldn't see me away yet my control felt it was OK for me to.