Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Chrisgr31]

Scroll back a couple of months and GTR were cancelling many trains on a daily basis due to a lack of crew, it has improved recently which is why as a passenger I find this dispute so annoying.

Southern just about get back on an even keel, trains actually running on time, less cancellations due to lack of staff etc, and then they engineer a dispute with their staff, except of course its not one, it's 3. It's totally bonkers.

The counter argument is of course that under the OBS scheme they'll only need a driver and this in itself should reduce the number of cancellations due to no crew except not many seem keen on it.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Partners and children are not allowed to use the passes to get to work/college, it is a leisure pass.

School/college yes, work no

 

[DelayRepay]

On the Southern website at the moment, there are 6 trains showing as altered due to "lack of train crew". And one which has the very detailed explanation:

Relief crew for this service are unfamiliar with the route via Hedge End including the safety and signalling systems, for this reason the train will need to divert.

Is this as a consequence of guards not volunteering to work extra shifts?

 

[HH]

Most TOC management teams are probably in awe of them, but I imagine they're all equally intrigued to see how GTR manage to run a TOC for 5 years with a workforce that completely hates the company.

In awe might not be quite the right word. Certainly amazed. Also very curious to know whether Govia bid that they were going to behave this way. Is this what it takes to win a franchise at the moment? I suspect it might be - I have heard that Arriva were very bullish about Ticket Office closures on LO and they also won Northern...

 

[HBM]

If the service referred to above unable to route via Hedge End was the 06:34 from Brighton this morning why did it not divert via Swanwick but terminate at Barnham. Certainly not a pathing issue.The number of services that don't reach Southampton /Portsmouth is ridiculous and has been the case for a very long time indeed (years). Will Southern management ever provide a reliable service into Hampshire or is it deemed so far from London it doesn't matter.

 

[DelayRepay]

Will Southern management ever provide a reliable service into Hampshire or is it deemed so far from London it doesn't matter.

As soon as they have fired all the guards, services will improve. See the press releases.

 

[hwl]

In awe might not be quite the right word. Certainly amazed. Also very curious to know whether Govia bid that they were going to behave this way. Is this what it takes to win a franchise at the moment? I suspect it might be - I have heard that Arriva were very bullish about Ticket Office closures on LO and they also won Northern...

I think all bidders would have had to bid in a similar way as with Thameslink services being DOO (and stated as being all DOO) and some southern services transferring to Thameslink there was always going to be an increase in DOO.
To introduce 700s on conversion routes you need the 700s running on the SN services beforehand so more DOO on Southern... (this will have been covered in the rolling stock intro and cascade plan they had to submit while bidding).

At this point the next logical step is to question why an East Grinstead - Victoria service that only has different stops from Thameslink of Victoria and Clapham Jn both with platform dispatch staff can't also be DOO...

DfT designed it thus ( I'm fairly sure you might have read the tender docs?)

I've been waiting for the fireworks to start for 2 years!

 

[Carlisle]

, but I imagine they're all equally intrigued to see how GTR manage to run a TOC for 5 years with a workforce that completely hates the company.

Any TOC that had to extend DOO was going to face this scenario,given the unions joint stance and all that and didn't have any other option really unless in involved total surrender

 

[HH]

I think all bidders would have had to bid in a similar way as with Thameslink services being DOO (and stated as being all DOO) and some southern services transferring to Thameslink there was always going to be an increase in DOO.
To introduce 700s on conversion routes you need the 700s running on the SN services beforehand so more DOO on Southern... (this will have been covered in the rolling stock intro and cascade plan they had to submit while bidding).

At this point the next logical step is to question why an East Grinstead - Victoria service that only has different stops from Thameslink of Victoria and Clapham Jn both with platform dispatch staff can't also be DOO...

DfT designed it thus ( I'm fairly sure you might have read the tender docs?)

I've been waiting for the fireworks to start for 2 years!

All bidders would have bid DOO, for sure. But what did they say their approach would be? GTR seem deliberately antagonistic; this is not normally seen as good IR. If I were evaluating a plan that proposed this approach I would mark it as posing a significant risk to delivery.

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Any TOC that had to extend DOO was going to face this scenario,given the unions joint stance and all that and didn't have any other option really unless in involved total surrender

It is true that any franchisee would have been prepared for strike action; RMT has made their position clear. I think there is an alternative to "it's either we surrender or we escalate" though.

 

[Goldfish62]

In awe might not be quite the right word. Certainly amazed. Also very curious to know whether Govia bid that they were going to behave this way. Is this what it takes to win a franchise at the moment? I suspect it might be - I have heard that Arriva were very bullish about Ticket Office closures on LO and they also won Northern...

LO is a TfL concession and is let on a different basis from DfT franchises. Basically, it's TfL which decides whether ticket offices close and the TOC has to implement whatever TfL decides. It's not for the TOC to make the decision.

 

[Southern Dvr]

LO is a TfL concession and is let on a different basis from DfT franchises. Basically, it's TfL which decides whether ticket offices close and the TOC has to implement whatever TfL decides. It's not for the TOC to make the decision.

And the GTR management contract is the same thing but with DfT calling the shots. GTR isn't a franchise it's being DfT's bitch & getting little bonuses when you do as you're told.

 

[Minstral25]

And the GTR management contract is the same thing but with DfT calling the shots. GTR isn't a franchise it's being DfT's bitch & getting little bonuses when you do as you're told.

Totally - I've been saying this for ages - this dispute and other issues on the GTR Management Contract are between the Department not for transport and RMT with GTR being little piggies stuck in the middle

 

[RichardN]

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2016/985.html is the interim ruling that means the Gatwick Express is now running DOO(P) with 12 coach trains.

In my view, the argument for the claimant to the effect that the terms said to restrict the entitlement of the employer to require the driver to work as intended by the employer in this case do not do so is a strong one.

I had to read the above sentence about three times before I understood it...

 

[JamesTT]

http://www.rmt.org.uk/about/ballot-...sion-of-doo--southern-gtr190416/?preview=true

Any idea why the RMT chose to strike when the majority voted for action short of a strike. Especially as the DFT foot the bill for the cancellation fines caused by industrial action (taking money from the public purse).

Action short of a strike would not have led to staff losing travel and parking benefits. I am the only one that thinks the RMT can be too militant at times?

 

[Drogba11CFC]

Because the majority voted for strike action too.

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[JamesTT]

Because the majority voted for strike action too.

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More voted for action short of a strike 99.7% as opposed to 95.3% for striking

 

[craigybagel]

RMT are taking legal action.

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/southern-gtr-dispute-update030516/

. Southern GTR members

SOUTHERN MANAGEMENT ACTING ILLEGALLY ON PAY AND PASSES

SOUTHERN MANAGEMENT ACTING ILLEGALLY BY BULLYING AND HARASSING STAFF

SOUTHERN MANAGEMENT ACTING ILLEGALLY BY BREACHING THEIR FRANCHISE AGREEMENT

Pay and Passes

I am writing to let you know what the union is doing in respect of the disgusting way you are being treated by this company.

I have written to Southern and advised them that I require their calculations for showing how the actions of EACH individual employee in taking industrial action has caused them a loss of £268. I have also told Southern that any decision to deduct money on the basis they are putting forward, or indeed to withdraw travel passes is also in contravention of Article 11 of the European Convention. The reason for this is that it is illegal to subject members to these detriments when they are taking lawful industrial action. I have made it clear that the union will use all means available to challenge them on this disgraceful action they are taking.

Bullying and Harassment of Members

The union has been advised by many members that they are being bullied and victimised by management. We obviously know this to be true because we have seen the letters they have sent you. We have seen the pressure you have been put under to fill in forms agreeing to work. We know you are being harassed and bullied because your passes and car parking facilities have been removed – all other staff have retained theirs. We know that many of you have had one-to-ones with managers and that you have felt intimidated and bullied. We have written evidence from members telling us they are under extreme stress as a result of this bullying and harassment. Bullying and Harassment is illegal. I have written to Charles Horton putting him and Southern on notice that they are in breach of the Health and Safety at Work Act and that I have written to the ORR (Office of Rail Regulator) and the DfT (Department for Transport) requesting they look into these serious breaches of legislation.

Breaching their Franchise Agreement

Part of Southern’s Franchise Agreement with the DfT states:-

Part 1 to Schedule 6.1 List of Committed Obligations

The Franchisee shall:
. (a) on or before 30 September 2015 establish and implement strategies to:
. (i) create healthy, positive working environments that optimise the attractiveness of roles and increase the wellbeing of Franchise Employees; and _
. (ii) minimise absenteeism and sickness leave of Franchise Employees;

Well obviously the working environment that Southern created is far from positive and they certainly isn’t increasing the wellbeing of their employees. To say they are breaching their Franchise is an understatement.

So you can see we have asked our Solicitors and Counsel to challenge these illegal practices that Southern are employing. I will keep you advised of developments on these very important issues.

 

[carriageline]

I feel this is going to be a long, drawn out battle, which is going to only end with all trains being DOO

A question to our guards of the forum, what do you REALLY want to come from this striking? Of course, we all want the guards to stay, but I think we all must see that probably isn't likely to happen?

IMO, The unions should be fighting to make this new role safe and secure, and give the guards/ex guards a future they can rely on.

PS I am 100% anti DOO, and fully behind the guards/platform staff/ticket office staff. I just wonder what the staff at the face think and feel? Do they believe they can keep guards on trains?


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[Mike395]

It doesn't help the RMT's cause when they get basic names of Government departments wrong.... makes them look sloppy.

 

[Agent_c]

Article 11 for those of you playing at home

Article 11 – Freedom of assembly and association

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

2. No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the State.

I dont see how a plan reading of the article helps, but I'm not 100% familiar with the caselaw sitting behind it... The ECtHR tends to look beyond just the plain text, so there's probably something there.

 

[TheEdge]

More voted for action short of a strike 99.7% as opposed to 95.3% for striking

That's not how it works. 95% voted for a strike, therefore they go on strike. The second part of the vote is only acted on if the majority didn't vote for a strike. So if 37% voted to strike but 99% voted industrial action short of a strike then industrial action would take place but not a strike, something like a work to rule or official free day ban.
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Article 11 for those of you playing at home



I dont see how a plan reading of the article helps, but I'm not 100% familiar with the caselaw sitting behind it... The ECtHR tends to look beyond just the plain text, so there's probably something there.

I have the feeling that the relatively long silence from the RMT over legal action means their lawyers have been pouring over this with a fine tooth comb thinking it will stick before its come out publically...

 

[JamesTT]

RMT are taking legal action.

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/southern-gtr-dispute-update030516/

This is excellent news I hope the RMT wait till the outcome before balloting station staff

 

[BHXDMT]

A question to our guards of the forum, what do you REALLY want to come from this striking? Of course, we all want the guards to stay, but I think we all must see that probably isn't likely to happen?

IMO, The unions should be fighting to make this new role safe and secure, and give the guards/ex guards a future they can rely on.

I'd like to see us retain (at the least) PTS and emergency procedures for evacuations, fires, etc. Doing tickets all the time is all well and good, but I'd rather we could still assist properly in an emergency.

I still believe door controls should lie with the Guard, but with all the new trains coming online across the country that can be built with in cab CCTV, I don't see us retaining that aspect of the role. To be honest, not having to worry about potentially facing a prison sentence because of operating the doors is somewhat appealing.

Unfortunately, as we've seen with GTR Southern, the intention seems to be to turn us into ticket sellers and lone RPIs with no safety critical role whatsoever - and then get rid of us a few years down the line. That is what I object to.

 

[JamesTT]

I feel this is going to be a long, drawn out battle, which is going to only end with all trains being DOO

A question to our guards of the forum, what do you REALLY want to come from this striking? Of course, we all want the guards to stay, but I think we all must see that probably isn't likely to happen?

IMO, The unions should be fighting to make this new role safe and secure, and give the guards/ex guards a future they can rely on.

PS I am 100% anti DOO, and fully behind the guards/platform staff/ticket office staff. I just wonder what the staff at the face think and feel? Do they believe they can keep guards on trains

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I agree with you and think it would be sensible for RMT and ASLEF to negotiate the pay, conditions and job security of the new role

 

[TheEdge]

I'd like to see us retain (at the least) PTS and emergency procedures for evacuations, fires, etc. Doing tickets all the time is all well and good, but I'd rather we could still assist properly in an emergency.

I still believe door controls should lie with the Guard, but with all the new trains coming online across the country that can be built with in cab CCTV, I don't see us retaining that aspect of the role. To be honest, not having to worry about potentially facing a prison sentence because of operating the doors is somewhat appealing.

Unfortunately, as we've seen with GTR Southern, the intention seems to be to turn us into ticket sellers and lone RPIs with no safety critical role whatsoever - and then get rid of us a few years down the line. That is what I object to.

I would agree with that. I hope the role of guards will remain as it is but, given DfT attitudes I don't think it will forever. Personally I think that the Southeastern Javelin role is the bare minimum of what should remain. A customer facing member of staff on every train who is fully PTS trained and safety critical, so without them the train doesn't run.

 

[JamesTT]

I would agree with that. I hope the role of guards will remain as it is but, given DfT attitudes I don't think it will forever. Personally I think that the Southeastern Javelin role is the bare minimum of what should remain. A customer facing member of staff on every train who is fully PTS trained and safety critical, so without them the train doesn't run.

Considering Thameslink run with one safety critical member of staff already, I think the 2 staff rule always mandate would be tricky to enforce. How about certain routes and or limit calling patterns to staffed stations. This would give protection to station staff

 

[craigybagel]

I agree with you and think it would be sensible for RMT and ASLEF to negotiate the pay, conditions and job security of the new role

RMT need to aim higher in order to negotiate down to a compromise - you never open with your lowest!

In any case, ASLEF are dead set against DOO or DCO. RMT need to make the most of having ASLEF's support for a change, since without it they haven't a chance of success, and that means refusing to give up door control.

 

[TEW]

http://www.southernrailway.com/sout...ncellations-between-brighton-and-southampton/

Southern having another public dig at their conductors. No wonder there is an unusually high level of sickness and people aren't volunteering for rest day work given the way they're being treated.

Conductor availability leads to cancellations between Brighton and Southampton
Date: 03 May 2016

Passengers travelling with Southern between Brighton and Southampton are being urged to check before they travel from 4 May and for what is likely to be the rest of the week because of a significant number of cancellations due to a lack of available conductors.

Chief Operating Officer Dyan Crowther said: “We are extremely disappointed and frustrated that, due to an unusually high level of sickness among some of our conductors and some others not working their normal rest days, we are unable to run the full service between Southampton and Brighton.

“We know this will come as an added blow after last week's conductors' strike by members of the RMT union.

“We’ve done our best for passengers by making these changes to a route where there are alternative services but we know it is going to be difficult. When our plans to evolve the role of conductor are implemented this type of cancellation and disruption to passengers will be vastly reduced.”

Virtually all the hourly direct services between Brighton and Southampton will be cancelled, although Southern hopes to run some evening peak trains. Passengers are advised to take alternative services and change at Barnham for an onward train. They should also check before they travel at www.nationalrail.co.uk. Anyone who has been delayed by 30 minutes or more can claim compensation at www.southernrailway.com/delayrepay.

ends

 

[Agent_c]

http://www.southernrailway.com/sout...ncellations-between-brighton-and-southampton/

Southern having another public dig at their conductors. No wonder there is an unusually high level of sickness and people aren't volunteering for rest day work given the way they're being treated.

Weren't conductors banned from picking up extra shifts?

 

[causton]

http://www.southernrailway.com/sout...ncellations-between-brighton-and-southampton/

Southern having another public dig at their conductors. No wonder there is an unusually high level of sickness and people aren't volunteering for rest day work given the way they're being treated.

What a load of...

Christ. I do feel sorry for the conductors having to put up with this. Interesting it is very clearly a breach of the GTR franchise doing all this! But then again, we know they break it in other areas so doubt that will stop them...

I have spoken to a number of them and they agree the future does not look bright.