Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[HLE]

Ok but why, when the current party in number 10 are regularly claiming to be a supporter of the creation of jobs, and people in work in general, are they seemingly trying to make thousands of people redundant?

where are they going to find work?

 

[Deepgreen]

Ok but why, when the current party in number 10 are regularly claiming to be a supporter of the creation of jobs, and people in work in general, are they seemingly trying to make thousands of people redundant?

where are they going to find work?

As far as I can see, the idea is not to make people redundant, but to change their role.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ok but why, when the current party in number 10 are regularly claiming to be a supporter of the creation of jobs, and people in work in general, are they seemingly trying to make thousands of people redundant?

where are they going to find work?

There are "jobs" which were once the norm of employment and there are now "jobs" that have all the drawbacks of conditions so commonly cited upon this website, such as part-time work and zero-hours contract work to name but two, which are still viewed as "jobs" by those in Government.

But you already new that..:roll:

 

[Dave1987]

So if from the outset RMT etc had said ok we accept the introduction of OBS, but only on these routes and we want these items included in their contracts. This will avoid industrial action taking place avoid decreasing staff moral further than necessary. There is no way GTR management would have said ok lets talk?

I support the guards on this matter but I don't support the RMT on the way they have handle things

James I believe you only have to look at the way they have behaved in relation to the Gat Ex to realise the way they behave when it comes to things like this. From what I have heard, even though they knew they had an agreement with Aslef for maximum of 10 car DOO working on the Gat Ex, they put a 12 car out on a Saturday morning just to see if the driver would take it. And when the driver refused they then took Aslef to the high court. Now to me that says if you give them an inch they will take a mile. And considering they are claiming this OBS role is all about customer service why are they releasing statements saying that if they get their plans through they will have to cancel less trains? In other words once we have converted the guards to OBS we don't care what they do as we can run trains without them. No pledge that every service will have an OBS on board.
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As far as I can see, the idea is not to make people redundant, but to change their role.

Well they had an agreement with Aslef for max 10 car running on Gat Ex, that was until they didn't want that agreement any more. Why should people believe them now? What guarantees are their that the OBS role won't be made redundant when then decide they don't want them any more?
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2. I suspect that digital ticketing advances are suggesting that ticket selling/checking roles will soon be unnecessary.

It's funny, digital ticketing has been available for a while. Yet I still see huge queues at the ticket office when I'm walking past it everyday. Seems the public still want the ticket offices and the paper based tickets!

 

[speedy_sticks]

It is a thin end of the wedge, for sure, but everything else is "questionable". This is not about profit, it's about government reducing cost. It's not a rush to the bottom of safety, it's about moving from one safe form of operation to another, albeit one possibly a little less safe. Statistically, UK DOO is safer than over 99% of the world's railways. What are guards getting blamed for that makes them scapegoats? Nothing that I can see.

This is essentially a dispute between DfT, presumably on behalf of their political masters, wanting to cut the cost of railways, and a group of staff who would like to keep their current job and T&Cs. Those of us who've been made redundant, or had their T&Cs changed, will sympathise. But when your time has come, it's really hard to stop it. Ask the coalminers.

The question is why have the government decided to pick a fight at this particular time? I think that there are two reasons:

1. All new trains are coming with on-board DOO cameras as standard; and
2. I suspect that digital ticketing advances are suggesting that ticket selling/checking roles will soon be unnecessary.

If I'm right, the gains are just too big. Trying to hold the tide back will be no more successful than it was for King Cnut.

So the disabled and vulnerable are fair game to lose out?

 

[Captain Chaos]

Fail to see how digital ticketing can be seen as a reason for introducing DOO. Oyster works because almost every station is barriered. You are unlikely to achieve that on the National Rail network. I've also had people trying to claim they've bought tickets on things like the train line app when on closer inspection it transpires they haven't. At all. (I do despair when I see people buy walk up tickets on the train line app an hour before they got on your train...) from what I have seen new technology is bringing an evolution in excuses and attempts to beat the system. Digital ticketing will NOT single handedly solve ticket less travel. It's just replacing one medium with another. Nothing more.

 

[tony6499]

It's the drivers T & C's that are the ultimate target in all this, remember what the DfT idiot said in his speech, ASLEF are the target and the Conductors and RMT are just the start of it.

It was denied at the time but it seems every word he said mirrored their real intentions

 

[HLE]

It's the drivers T & C's that are the ultimate target in all this, remember what the DfT idiot said in his speech, ASLEF are the target and the Conductors and RMT are just the start of it.

It was denied at the time but it seems every word he said mirrored their real intentions

Exactly.

This is only the start of things to come.

Four more years of this government ......

 

[HH]

It's funny, digital ticketing has been available for a while. Yet I still see huge queues at the ticket office when I'm walking past it everyday. Seems the public still want the ticket offices and the paper based tickets!

Mobile phones were available for a while; then there came smartphones. Driverless cars are available now; at some point they'll start appearing on public roads. Basically it's a dumb argument.

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So the disabled and vulnerable are fair game to lose out?

You have to ask that about this government? Where have you been hibernating?

 

[ainsworth74]

Of course part of the problem with the way digital technology and ticketing has worked so far is simply that it hasn't been done very well! One need only look at the complete and unmitigated disaster that is the South East Flexible Ticketing programme to see that!

 

[HH]

Of course part of the problem with the way digital technology and ticketing has worked so far is simply that it hasn't been done very well! One need only look at the complete and unmitigated disaster that is the South East Flexible Ticketing programme to see that!

Quite right. And the main reason that it's been done badly can be laid fairly and squarely at the door of DfT.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

As far as I can see, the idea is not to make people redundant, but to change their role.

If you truly believe that tosh then I have £30 million in a Nigerian bank and if you send me £10000 I'll give you half for helping me get it out of Nigeria

 

[Robertj21a]

Exactly.

This is only the start of things to come.

Four more years of this government ......

Far more likely to be nine.

 

[Minstral25]

If you truly believe that tosh then I have £30 million in a Nigerian bank and if you send me £10000 I'll give you half for helping me get it out of Nigeria

No - GTR won't be making them redundant but First/MTR or Stagecoach will in the next Franchise....

 

[Dave1987]

Mobile phones were available for a while; then there came smartphones. Driverless cars are available now; at some point they'll start appearing on public roads. Basically it's a dumb argument.

Hmmm so the huge queues I see at ticket offices are a figment of my imagination? Considering how widespread smartphones are now, if e-Tickets were really going to take off I would be expecting to see no queues at all. People have apps for everything now but lots & lots still want to go to the ticket office to see a human to buy a ticket, so its not a dumb argument at all! TOC's like GTR are trying to force the issue by closing ticket offices, and passengers are furious about it!

 

[HLE]

As far as I can see, the idea is not to make people redundant, but to change their role.

In the short term, yes.

By the sounds of it the t's and c's are about as good as the trolley staff.....dispensed with easily....
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Far more likely to be nine.

I do reluctantly agree. But that's another topic not relevant to this thread so I'll say no more.

 

[GatwickDepress]

In the short term, yes.

By the sounds of it the t's and c's are about as good as the trolley staff.....dispensed with easily....

Not to mention the Gatwick Express on-board customer service staff. How long did they last?

 

[HLE]

Not to mention the Gatwick Express on-board customer service staff. How long did they last?

To measure it you need a stopwatch more than a calendar !

 

[XDM]

Why are so many posters assuming management will soon get rid of the OBS? Surely they will want them aboard if they collect more revenue than they cost or if they can be sure the OBS will deter more ticketless travel than they cost.

 

[Wolfie]

Why are so many posters assuming management will soon get rid of the OBS? Surely they will want them aboard if they collect more revenue than they cost or if they can be sure the OBS will deter more ticketless travel than they cost.

Because they did exactly that on Gatwick Express....

 

[HLE]

There are "jobs" which were once the norm of employment and there are now "jobs" that have all the drawbacks of conditions so commonly cited upon this website, such as part-time work and zero-hours contract work to name but two, which are still viewed as "jobs" by those in Government.

But you already new that..:roll:

Struggling to see your point?

Are you saying sit back and accept it?

What a thing to tell the grandkids.....'well once upon a time there were jobs on the railway that had a decent pay packet and conditions but the government decided we were overpaid and underworked so they changed our pay and conditions.....and we did nothing....... by the way enjoy your night shift on a Saturday night, and don't spend your minimum wage you've earned from it all at once because they're isn't any decent pension schemes now because we let them take that off us as well....

A bit far fetched I'll admit but certainly not impossible to imagine.

What happened to the coal miners ? And the car factory workers? And more recently the steel workers?

Where do they work now?

(I'll admit I know one driver who used to work in a car factory back in t'day so not all doom and gloom)

 

[Wolfie]

Struggling to see your point?

Are you saying sit back and accept it?

What a thing to tell the grandkids.....'well once upon a time there were jobs on the railway that had a decent pay packet and conditions but the government decided we were overpaid and underworked so they changed our pay and conditions.....and we did nothing....... by the way enjoy your night shift on a Saturday night, and don't spend your minimum wage you've earned from it all at once because they're isn't any decent pension schemes now because we let them take that off us as well....

A bit far fetched I'll admit but certainly not impossible to imagine.

What happened to the coal miners ? And the car factory workers? And more recently the steel workers?

BOHICA at it's finest.... If you are screwed anyway (which is what Paul S seems to be suggesting) you may as well go down fighting in my view.

 

[HLE]

BOHICA at it's finest.... If you are screwed anyway (which is what Paul S seems to be suggesting) you may as well go down fighting in my view.

Yep. Whether the guards win or not remains to be seen but they're going to need to step up (well the RMT) their actions a bit heavier.

Only if they manage to cause chaos by striking can I see it making a pivotal difference to GTR's case. Much harder to cause it considering a decent chunk of services down that way are DOO already.

Not advocating or condoning chaos being caused to passengers before anyone starts.....but it's going to take something big to get GTR/DFT to back down.

 

[tony6499]

Yep. Whether the guards win or not remains to be seen but they're going to need to step up (well the RMT) their actions a bit heavier.

Only if they manage to cause chaos by striking can I see it making a pivotal difference to GTR's case. Much harder to cause it considering a decent chunk of services down that way are DOO already.

Not advocating or condoning chaos being caused to passengers before anyone starts.....but it's going to take something big to get GTR/DFT to back down.

I just hope it won't be an accident or a serious incident that does it

 

[XDM]

Gatwick express probably has no ticketless travel as its guarded by ticket barriers at each end,so no point in OBS from a revenue generating viewpoint. But most other southern country services include open stations, so it seems likely that management will keep the OBS as long as they deliver more revenue than they cost.

 

[74A]

Struggling to see your point?

Are you saying sit back and accept it?

What a thing to tell the grandkids.....'well once upon a time there were jobs on the railway that had a decent pay packet and conditions but the government decided we were overpaid and underworked so they changed our pay and conditions.....and we did nothing....... by the way enjoy your night shift on a Saturday night, and don't spend your minimum wage you've earned from it all at once because they're isn't any decent pension schemes now because we let them take that off us as well....

A bit far fetched I'll admit but certainly not impossible to imagine.

What happened to the coal miners ? And the car factory workers? And more recently the steel workers?

Where do they work now?

(I'll admit I know one driver who used to work in a car factory back in t'day so not all doom and gloom)

The battle was lost in 1984. The RMT would be better off negotiating enhanced redundancy and better T&C for the OBS. Who knows how long the role will remain but in Scotland they are still there 25 years later. Constantly saying NO NO NO will get them nowhere and their staff will find themselves out of a job with minimal compensation.

Lets remind ourselves of the recent success of the RMT. Scotrail when the Bathgate line electrified and converted to DOO. Several strikes. Result DOO came in and the strikes just stopped. Overground when TFL moved the rest of the operation to DOO. A couple of strikes and the DOO came in. Heathrow Express removal of the second person on the train. Several strikes but made no difference and the second person was removed.

I do not see this being any different.

 

[BestWestern]

Gatwick express probably has no ticketless travel as its guarded by ticket barriers at each end,so no point in OBS from a revenue generating viewpoint. But most other southern country services include open stations, so it seems likely that management will keep the OBS as long as they deliver more revenue than they cost.

They will be paid the same as they already are. There will be some savings in terms of overtime, but not a great deal in the overall scheme really. If revenue vs cost was the deciding factor, the entire exercise would be close to pointless. Unless, of course, there are plans waiting in the darkness to slash those costs even more, which explains the concern in the first place.

 

[Robertj21a]

The battle was lost in 1984. The RMT would be better off negotiating enhanced redundancy and better T&C for the OBS. Who knows how long the role will remain but in Scotland they are still there 25 years later. Constantly saying NO NO NO will get them nowhere and their staff will find themselves out of a job with minimal compensation.

Lets remind ourselves of the recent success of the RMT. Scotrail when the Bathgate line electrified and converted to DOO. Several strikes. Result DOO came in and the strikes just stopped. Overground when TFL moved the rest of the operation to DOO. A couple of strikes and the DOO came in. Heathrow Express removal of the second person on the train. Several strikes but made no difference and the second person was removed.

I do not see this being any different.

Sorry to say, but this sounds rather sensible. The battle was lost when the first train ran as DOO, with the agreement of the Union.
I'm not sure that the RMT have handled this as well as they could have done, but at least they could now try a bit harder to get the best end result.

 

[JamesTT]

Sorry to say, but this sounds rather sensible. The battle was lost when the first train ran as DOO, with the agreement of the Union.
I'm not sure that the RMT have handled this as well as they could have done, but at least they could now try a bit harder to get the best end result.

Pretty much what I have been saying but have been rounded on by playground bullies making snidey remarks

 

[speedy_sticks]

Mobile phones were available for a while; then there came smartphones. Driverless cars are available now; at some point they'll start appearing on public roads. Basically it's a dumb argument.

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You have to ask that about this government? Where have you been hibernating?

How do you mean hibernating?
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How do you square the FACT that OBS folks won't be on every train? What do the disabled do?