Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[JamesTT]

Would you want to in their shoes? They've been given 3 choices. Go for a very limited number of their own job, take on a new job with far worse conditions, or get sacked. It's a very very stark choice, especially as the company has already indicated that it won't be paying severance pay to strikers.

As far as work goes, most will be doing the bare minimum (and who can blame them). The difference with SWT is that for now, the guards there are secure and morale is reasonably high.

The pay is the same and they still get additional pay for Sundays the commission structure, break entitlement and rest between shifts is different. Surely these are things the union should be negotiating on.

 

[Dave1987]

The pay is the same and they still get additional pay for Sundays the commission structure, break entitlement and rest between shifts is different. Surely these are things the union should be negotiating on.

Suggest you read the post from SarahJ which details what T&C's the new OBS role will have. Sundays are part of the working week for a start!

 

[JamesTT]

Suggest you read the post from SarahJ which details what T&C's the new OBS role will have. Sundays are part of the working week for a start!

I read the letter explaining this from what I gathered Sunday's would not be included into everyone's working week. When they are included the basic salary was going to be increased to reflect this. At present although they are not included you are still contractual obliged to work them or find cover. As stated before surely the unions should be going over the finer points of the OBS contract

 

[ItchyRsole]

And your point is?
1) Admin is hardly a safety critical role unlike ours and
2) I am on my 6th night turn which will equate to 62hrs, we get no rest or meal breaks and 1 day off before I'm back in on lates... :roll:

That is a horrendous shift pattern in fairness. Makes me glad of mine although I whinge now and again.

16 week cycle, 12 weeks of 5 on 3 off

Two lots of 6 on 2 off

Then two lots of 5 on 4 off

Good luck to all GTR staff. Disgraceful treatment you're working under. Shameful.

 

[74A]

From that document it seems Selhurst has 91 conductors now and will retain 91 in the future so no redundancies there. Wonder why that is. Do they do all the DMU work I wonder ?
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I don't think so. What appears to have happened, from my reading, is that the local agreements were not specific when it came to DOO and the length of the trains that it had been agreed could be worked under DOO. Therefore the court decided on that basis that there was no contractual term (the agreement is part of the contract of employment) that the drivers could use to refuse to work 12-car DOO and therefore GTR were within their rights to require the drivers to work those trains. ASLEF can only prevent or induce their members not to work those services if they hold a ballot which, as they had not done, meant that they couldn't at that time instruct their drivers not to work.

If the local agreements had been explicit that the drivers only agree to work up to 10-car DOO then I rather suspect that GTRs request would have been thrown out as the drivers were contracted only to work up to 10-car DOO.

So if a local agreement is specific in its terms then those terms should stand but if there is any room for interpretation then you open yourself up to a similar situation occurring.

I think you are correct. The court did not think working 12 car DOO was a significant change so was not unreasonable for GTR to instruct drivers to work.

Reading the full judgement I could see GTR applying the same argument if ASLEF tried to stop DOO on the East Grinstead line for example. Its not a big change from what they do now.

That is why the only way ASLEF can now stop it is to go on strike. Hence the ballot which we know is currently being conducted.

 

[Flamingo]

Did anybody pick up on the reference to advice taken about how the notification should be delivered?

(phone call between an Insolvency Service advisor and Rajesh Jeshani (Trainee Solicitor at Eversheds LLP, 1 Wood Street, London, EC2V 7WS at 15:42 on 24 March 2016).

Now, apart from the issue of taking advice on such a serious issue from a trainee, look at when this advice was sought (24 March 2016) - how does this date fit into the timeline of this dispute?

It looks like this was always the endgame planned.

 

[infobleep]

So how many people will be contacting Peter Evans, head of employee relations about this?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Dave1987]

I read the letter explaining this from what I gathered Sunday's would not be included into everyone's working week. When they are included the basic salary was going to be increased to reflect this. At present although they are not included you are still contractual obliged to work them or find cover. As stated before surely the unions should be going over the finer points of the OBS contract

I'm sure SarahJ can enlighten you on exactly what conditions GTR are giving these OBS roles.

 

[BestWestern]

I'm sure SarahJ can enlighten you on exactly what conditions GTR are giving these OBS roles.

The question is surely hoe much of a change they can get away with and still dodge the redundancy issue...

 

[Rich McLean]

The question is surely hoe much of a change they can get away with and still dodge the redundancy issue...

Unless rules have changed, Voluntary Redundancy (VR) should apply if current guards are offered different roles on new Pay and T & Cs, which is effectively a redployment pool with the option of another role or VR. Taking VR can come with a significantly smaller payout than compulsory redundancy. However if on the same pay, VR doesn't apply. That's how I understand it

 

[Tetchytyke]

Just seen this on the SEG Facebook site, things have taken a very draconian turn.

https://cdn.fbsbx.com/v/t59.2708-21/13183586_10153610006151475_1548327005_n.pdf/Notification-to-Insolvency-Service-PE09052016.pdf?oh=9f083c6100e2c0cc0aa770c8bd252925&oe=5735B817&dl=1

The OBS is a new job, that's what they have to do if they wish to impose it.

The issue RMT need to be aware of is that they are not in control of the process. If the ASLEF drivers agree to change to DOO, or the agreements with ASLEF already ensure that drivers can be compelled to drive DOO (as we saw on GatEx), then the RMT guards members are up the creek sans propulsion device. If you don't need an OBS to run the service then strike action is no longer a viable threat.

I trust ASLEF when they say they are in solidarity.
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Now, apart from the issue of taking advice on such a serious issue from a trainee, look at when this advice was sought (24 March 2016) - how does this date fit into the timeline of this dispute?

It looks like this was always the endgame planned.

Of course this is what the endgame is. The issue is that GTR can, legally, make all the guards redundant if the post is no longer required. If ASLEF either crumble or the ASLEF agreements have holes in them then the RMT have no power over the situation at all.

I am also surprised that a Trainee Solicitor has been approached for their opinion on this, and I assume they have been named because the actual solicitor at Eversheds LLP doesn't want their mailbox filled with polite and courteous correspondence about their behaviour.

 

[cjmillsnun]

So they obey the letter of the law but not the spirit. As said before, they are going to sack people and the. Take them on under a new contract with far worse conditions.

 

[Bookd]

I read the letter explaining this from what I gathered Sunday's would not be included into everyone's working week. When they are included the basic salary was going to be increased to reflect this. At present although they are not included you are still contractual obliged to work them or find cover. As stated before surely the unions should be going over the finer points of the OBS contract

Some of the rotate described in this thread sound horrendous, but the issue of Sunday working has always puzzled me. (I confess that I never had a job that required me to work on Sundays although now that I am self-employed I often do)
The railways have been running for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for the best part of 200 years; anyone taking a railway job must know this and that by definition there will be a need for staff to work; I can't see why the Sunday service should rely on the voluntary goodwill of the staff.

 

[Dave1987]

Some of the rotate described in this thread sound horrendous, but the issue of Sunday working has always puzzled me. (I confess that I never had a job that required me to work on Sundays although now that I am self-employed I often do)
The railways have been running for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for the best part of 200 years; anyone taking a railway job must know this and that by definition there will be a need for staff to work; I can't see why the Sunday service should rely on the voluntary goodwill of the staff.

Lot's of TOC's it doesn't work of the voluntary good will of staff. Might want to do your research before making such sweeping statements! At my depot Sundays are not part of the working week and we get extra pay for working them. But we have committed Sundays where we are obliged to work if they can't find anyone who wants to or can work it for you ie break Hidden.

 

[skyhigh]

Just seen this on the SEG Facebook site, things have taken a very draconian turn.

https://cdn.fbsbx.com/v/t59.2708-21/13183586_10153610006151475_1548327005_n.pdf/Notification-to-Insolvency-Service-PE09052016.pdf?oh=9f083c6100e2c0cc0aa770c8bd252925&oe=5735B817&dl=1

Did anyone actually proof-read that letter?

Therefore, some depots will become duel role and some will become totally OBS locations.

I know it's only a small mistake, but it's not like this is an unimportant document... not forgetting the fact that the definition of 'duel' I found is 'a contest between two parties' - perhaps apt given the circumstances!

 

[Carlisle]

From that document it seems Selhurst has 91 conductors now and will retain 91 in the future so no redundancies there. Wonder why that is. Do they do all the DMU work I wonder ?
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.

Must be most/all of the Uckfield runs plus the WCML services north of Clapham Junction

 

[PlatformPete]

Some of the rotate described in this thread sound horrendous, but the issue of Sunday working has always puzzled me. (I confess that I never had a job that required me to work on Sundays although now that I am self-employed I often do)
The railways have been running for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for the best part of 200 years; anyone taking a railway job must know this and that by definition there will be a need for staff to work; I can't see why the Sunday service should rely on the voluntary goodwill of the staff.

On Southern it's not Voluntary Goodwill!
Sunday's are outside the working week but are rostered Compulsary overtime!
The only way to get a Booked Sunday off is to swap or if it's on your leave!!!
But you do get overtime pay for it!!
OBS's will be Sunday's in the week and no overtime at any time as they'd rather not pay overtime and let the Train run without a OBS!!

 

[Deepgreen]

On Southern it's not Voluntary Goodwill!
Sunday's are outside the working week but are rostered Compulsary overtime!
The only way to get a Booked Sunday off is to swap or if it's on your leave!!!
But you do get overtime pay for it!!
OBS's will be Sunday's in the week and no overtime at any time as they'd rather not pay overtime and let the Train run without a OBS!!

Wow - I think you may have used up your daily quota of exclamation marks here.

 

[PlatformPete]

Wow - I think you may have used up your daily quota of exclamation marks here.

No only done 2 posts have loads of my allocation left!!! Thx!!!!

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

I read the letter explaining this from what I gathered Sunday's would not be included into everyone's working week. When they are included the basic salary was going to be increased to reflect this. At present although they are not included you are still contractual obliged to work them or find cover. As stated before surely the unions should be going over the finer points of the OBS contract

Are you for real or just a manager at Southern ?

 

[FordFocus]

I see Sundays have been mentioned again.

Most TOC would like to see Sundays outside of the working week. Why? Because it's much cheaper. The risk is it's not guaranteed cover for when there is a staff shortage.

The basic week is Monday - Saturday at an average of 35 hours a week. Within this you have to have additional staff to cover for annual leave, sickness and learning requirements.

To have Sundays inside the working week, you require more staff as nobody is going to agree to work additional hours and days in their current contract, making the previous 35 hour a week to something akin to 41 hours a week. So you need more staff as the Sunday rest day has to be moved to another day such as a Tuesday. Plus the cover for annual leave and sickness as Sunday is now a normal day.

The unions want Sundays inside the working week. East Midlands drivers are been consulted it on it at the minute.

 

[A1]

Is the lack of conductors today on southern (sickness call ins I understand) anything to do with the current industrial issues?

 

[JamesTT]

Are you for real or just a manager at Southern ?

No I am not a manager and yes I am for real. Basic pay is the same and includes am increase if Sundays are included. The other T&Cs should be negotiated between the union and GTR

 

[Surreytraveller]

I am also surprised that a Trainee Solicitor has been approached for their opinion on this

Makes sense to me. It means if/when this all goes belly up, they can blame the trainee and no one else takes responsibility.

 

[tony6499]

Makes sense to me. It means if/when this all goes belly up, they can blame the trainee and no one else takes responsibility.

Bit naughty putting his name into the public domain in what could turn out to be a long and drawn out bitter dispute

 

[Dave1987]

No I am not a manager and yes I am for real. Basic pay is the same and includes am increase if Sundays are included. The other T&Cs should be negotiated between the union and GTR

Do I take it you support GTR in this?

 

[D1009]

I was thinking, 'if only you knew'. But Physics has beaten me to it.

That brings a new meaning to the term "secret ballot"

 

[Agent_c]

Makes sense to me. It means if/when this all goes belly up, they can blame the trainee and no one else takes responsibility.

I'm sure their professional indemnity insurer is going to love that. So will the firm they engage for the employment dispute.

 

[Romilly]

The way I read it, the trainee was simply given the task of ringing up and asking whether they had to use a particular form or could supply the required information in a letter.

 

[Bodiddly]

Reading this thread with interest. No matter the outcome, one thing is for sure. Southern have destroyed any employee/employer relations forever with their bullying and intimidation tactics. What worries me most though is if they manage to push this through because other grades didn't stand up for their colleagues, who is next? Every one of us working in the railway will be at risk of the same treatment.
From what I can determine, ASLEF are preparing support from the drivers but are playing it very canny to make sure I's are dotted and T's are crossed. I hope this is true. The Southern guards deserve much, much better than this.