Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[sarahj]

Still no sign of ASLEF ballot.

I was thinking, 'if only you knew'. But Physics has beaten me to it.

 

[spangles]

It does get me when folks and the company go on about people not working rest days. You should be able to enjoy your one day off after you have worked, 5/6/7 days.

I don't disagree that people are entitled to their rest days and should not be forced to work them. But let's be clear on a couple of points:

• Many people regularly chose to work rest days not out of goodwill, but routinely because it is financially advantageous to do so
• Most railway roles (not all) work a four day week (but earn more than most do for a full week), so working a rest day brings you into a normal working week of five days which is what pretty much the rest of the population do
• increasing establishment will seriously hinder the ability of many staff to offer themselves up for rest day working and therefore they must accept they will be financially worse off. I imagine many people have grown accustomed to their extra income for their five day weeks.

 

[Agent_c]

[*]Most railway roles (not all) work a four day week (but earn more than most do for a full week), so working a rest day brings you into a normal working week of five days which is what pretty much the rest of the population do

Most of the population don't work 40 hours compressed into 4 days, so I think you fundamentally misunderstand how railway shifts work. The fifth day isn't some day they're getting paid not to work on, they already did their full time work.

 

[spangles]

When I worked as an office admin, my hours were 8am-6pm 5 days a week, so my normal week was 50 hours. They got round the Eu working time directive because in theory we were given 30 mins for lunch every day so technically it was only a 47.5 hour week. No one ever took their full lunch break either.

Therefore I do know what it's like to work 40 hours in four days (and then some)!

 

[JamesTT]

Today's experience of trains.

I caught a southern train which I know has a Conductor it was not very busy and for 20ish minutes no sight or sound of them. Then there must have been a change of cndr the new one did make announcements, but didnt say where they were located and also didn't walk through the train.

Caught a SWT and the guard made regular announcements explained where they were and that they would be on the platform at station stops this was on the out and return journey.

caught another Southern train, during rush hour train was busy but enough room for dispatch within a carriage. Conductor was in a cab for the whole journey no information and no presence.

I know Southern Conductors must be incredibly demoralised but surely they ALL should be going look passengers here we are we want to provide info customer service etc and of course ensure the dispatch of the train is carried out safely

 

[the sniper]

I don't disagree that people are entitled to their rest days and should not be forced to work them. But let's be clear on a couple of points:

• Most railway roles (not all) work a four day week (but earn more than most do for a full week), so working a rest day brings you into a normal working week of five days which is what pretty much the rest of the population do

You've got to take account of how railway rosters work. Where I am we have committed Sundays. If you got a committed Sunday you're already involuntarily working 7 days straight, if you then work rest days you're looking at working 8, 9 or up to 13 days straight, obviously with a diminishing number of days off before you go back and do it again. It's not as simple as just working 5 days instead of 4 and going off for your regular Saturday and Sunday off.

 

[cjmillsnun]

When I worked as an office admin, my hours were 8am-6pm 5 days a week, so my normal week was 50 hours. They got round the Eu working time directive because in theory we were given 30 mins for lunch every day so technically it was only a 47.5 hour week. No one ever took their full lunch break either.

Therefore I do know what it's like to work 40 hours in four days (and then some)!

OK try doing that when you have a responsibility for the health and safety of the general public.

There is a difference between someone who shuffles papers in an office and someone who is directly responsible for the safety of a train packed full of passengers on a busy railway line. In the office you are unlikely to face court and possible imprisonment if you make a mistake.

Although I'm not a railwayman, I could land up in court or interviewed by police or the HSE for a mistake I make at work. It can be extremely stressful at times, add long shifts to that, then being treated like crap by your employer.

I actually find it insulting that you compare their work with your time as an admin assistant.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Most of the population don't work 40 hours compressed into 4 days, so I think you fundamentally misunderstand how railway shifts work. The fifth day isn't some day they're getting paid not to work on, they already did their full time work.

Despite the fallacy of belief of many of the website members that people in the higher echelons of senior management said to spend much shorter working hours than their employed staff and spending more time on golf courses during the working week, all I can say as one who took retirement in 2010, was that the senior management and upper middle management of my consultancy did not have that mindset and as part of the most excellent salary and bonus package that go with the responsibility of leadership, hours far in excess of the 40 hour week are worked in order to ensure that current projects are kept to the fore, as success in these fields of enterprise leads to more new future contracts being awarded to us based upon our ability to fulfil our contractual obligations.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Today's experience of trains.

I caught a southern train which I know has a Conductor it was not very busy and for 20ish minutes no sight or sound of them. Then there must have been a change of cndr the new one did make announcements, but didnt say where they were located and also didn't walk through the train.

Caught a SWT and the guard made regular announcements explained where they were and that they would be on the platform at station stops this was on the out and return journey.

caught another Southern train, during rush hour train was busy but enough room for dispatch within a carriage. Conductor was in a cab for the whole journey no information and no presence.

I know Southern Conductors must be incredibly demoralised but surely they ALL should be going look passengers here we are we want to provide info customer service etc and of course ensure the dispatch of the train is carried out safely

Would you want to in their shoes? They've been given 3 choices. Go for a very limited number of their own job, take on a new job with far worse conditions, or get sacked. It's a very very stark choice, especially as the company has already indicated that it won't be paying severance pay to strikers.

As far as work goes, most will be doing the bare minimum (and who can blame them). The difference with SWT is that for now, the guards there are secure and morale is reasonably high.

 

[BRblue]

When I worked as an office admin, my hours were 8am-6pm 5 days a week, so my normal week was 50 hours. They got round the Eu working time directive because in theory we were given 30 mins for lunch every day so technically it was only a 47.5 hour week. No one ever took their full lunch break either.

Therefore I do know what it's like to work 40 hours in four days (and then some)!

And your point is?
1) Admin is hardly a safety critical role unlike ours and
2) I am on my 6th night turn which will equate to 62hrs, we get no rest or meal breaks and 1 day off before I'm back in on lates... :roll:

 

[Agent_c]

When I worked as an office admin, my hours were 8am-6pm 5 days a week, so my normal week was 50 hours. They got round the Eu working time directive because in theory we were given 30 mins for lunch every day so technically it was only a 47.5 hour week. No one ever took their full lunch break either.

Therefore I do know what it's like to work 40 hours in four days (and then some)!

And you've answered a question that wasn't proposed. I didn't say you didn't know what it felt like.

The standard working week is between 35-40 hours over 5 days. Train drivers do the same over 4 days. Mentioning that they only work 4 days in your analysis isn't relevant because they still do a full time load worth of work, over 4 days.

If you had a bad employer, thats between you, your employer, and your ability to negociate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Despite the fallacy of belief of many of the website members that people in the higher echelons of senior management said to spend much shorter working hours than their employed staff and spending more time on golf courses during the working week, all I can say as one who took retirement in 2010, was that the senior management and upper middle management of my consultancy did not have that mindset and as part of the most excellent salary and bonus package that go with the responsibility of leadership, hours far in excess of the 40 hour week are worked in order to ensure that current projects are kept to the fore, as success in these fields of enterprise leads to more new future contracts being awarded to us based upon our ability to fulfil our contractual obligations.

I know I know, if someone wasn't there to invent the work, then the the inventing work would never get done...

 

[Raegar]

When I worked as an office admin, my hours were 8am-6pm 5 days a week, so my normal week was 50 hours. They got round the Eu working time directive because in theory we were given 30 mins for lunch every day so technically it was only a 47.5 hour week. No one ever took their full lunch break either.

Therefore I do know what it's like to work 40 hours in four days (and then some)!

Really spangles, did your previous position as office admin require you to get out of bed at 3am when on earlies? When your little ones tucked YOU into bed and read YOU a bedtime story the night before? Did your previous job mean on lates, by lates I mean you weren't home until 3am, you didn't see you children awake for FOUR DAYS? Tell me what horrors admin held for you.

If it wasn't for my partner who got the little guys up, washed them, fed them, stood over them and made sure they brushed there teeth, got them dressed for school and out of the house, then off to work herself and not wake daddy I have no idea how I'd have coped. Then again the world of office admin is a jungle. Have you any idea of the amount of failed relationships and marriages amongst traincrew there are? But hey you've endured office life, so hey preaching to the converted yeah.

Not denigrating you or your career, but please don't compare. Oh by the way I did do office admin way back when, so at least I have a frame of reference.

 

[BestWestern]

So to clarify this issue of redundancy; or lack of:

GTR are allowed to force employed staff to reapply for their current jobs, and if there are too many applications they can simply dismiss the 'excess'? Surely, that simply amounts to being made redundant in the case of those who apply but are not accepted? Or is the intention to use some form of clause in their contracts which allows dismissal in the event of strike action? If somebody hasn't gone on strike, are they then guaranteed the job?

GTR are dodging the spirit of employment legislation like an artform!

 

[embers25]

Ours was quite nasty enough, and had the potential to get much nastier, until it was suddenly realised in certain quarters that the new trains etc were MUCH further off than was originally forecast, and the cat had been let out of the bag way too early!

I don't think it is anything like finished in GWR land, just on hold...

Surely this is the whole point. The DfT got slightly burned on GWR but brushed it under the carpet for a later fight as that fight will become much easier if GTR win this one somehow...as will any other DOO fight. The problem now is that GTR can't really back down now and the unions/staff wouldn't trust any kind of back down anyway and the RMT can't back down as their members will be downgraded or lose their jobs and the RMT will lose valuable subs and that sub loss will get greater and greater as DOO spreads. In theory if GTR somehow win it's a great way for to reduce union power and in particular the RMT and if they have DfT backing then in theory they have very little risk to worry about. The question is who picks up the cost ultimately of loss of revenue here as if the DfT are demanding this then I'm guessing they'll be some sort of trade off for the greater good in their eyes?

 

[DelayRepay]

The problem now is that GTR can't really back down now and the unions/staff wouldn't trust any kind of back down anyway and the RMT can't back down as their members will be downgraded or lose their jobs and the RMT will lose valuable subs and that sub loss will get greater and greater as DOO spreads.

I agree - I can't see this ending well.

GTR and the DFT won't back down. The government hate the unions (see Trade Union Bill) and the railways are some of the strongest unions of the lot. This isn't about transport or the railways, it's about proving to the trade union movement that they can't protect their members any more.

I am not sure how things will change if ASLEF vote for strike action, but given the way GTR dealt with the GatEx issues I am not sure if even the combined force of ASLEF and the RMT will be able to win this one.

But that doesn't mean it's not a battle worth fighting. As I've said before I fully support the guards in this battle and I wish those who are on strike standing up for their jobs and public safety well.

Question for the industry experts: What does Southern actually have to do to implement DOO on the current guard operated lines? Does someone need to approve it from a safety perspective and if so, who? Is there any visibility to this process or is the first the public know is when the announcement is made?

 

[ComUtoR]

[*]so working a rest day brings you into a normal working week of five days which is what pretty much the rest of the population do

That is not true. The traditional 9-5 Monday-Friday barely exists any more. Zero hours, part time, flexible time, shift workers, weekends workers, seasonal workers, work from home..... etc.

Still surely the attitude should be that each sector should work the hours for them and not be based on what is done by others ?

[*] increasing establishment will seriously hinder the ability of many staff to offer themselves up for rest day working and therefore they must accept they will be financially worse off.

In what way ? Increasing the establishment will potentially increase the need for rest day working. It would also increase the staffing costs for the TOC. Rostering is very involved and to stop rest day working it takes much more than increasing establishments.

 

[craigybagel]

If the drivers refuse to work DOO on the new routes come July, hopefully the courts won't side with GTR like they did with GatEx, as they won't have the precedent of the same Trains already running DOO with the same amount of carriages on the same route? Then things will get interesting.

 

[Dave1987]

Despite the fallacy of belief of many of the website members that people in the higher echelons of senior management said to spend much shorter working hours than their employed staff and spending more time on golf courses during the working week, all I can say as one who took retirement in 2010, was that the senior management and upper middle management of my consultancy did not have that mindset and as part of the most excellent salary and bonus package that go with the responsibility of leadership, hours far in excess of the 40 hour week are worked in order to ensure that current projects are kept to the fore, as success in these fields of enterprise leads to more new future contracts being awarded to us based upon our ability to fulfil our contractual obligations.

In your senior management role did you ever have the alarm go off at 3am for a 4.30 book on? Or did you waltz in the office at 9am every day? Did you ever have to work until 2am in the morning or were you home every evening with the family? We people on the ground who actually make the railway run are up at ridiculous times in the morning one week, then not getting home until the wee small hours the next.

 

[HLE]

I can't see most people striking for more than 2-3 days a month. It'd seriously cut into your monthly pay packet.

It'll eat even more into their pay when they have no pay !

 

[whoosh]

[*]Most railway roles (not all) work a four day week (but earn more than most do for a full week), so working a rest day brings you into a normal working week of five days which is what pretty much the rest of the population do

This does wind me up. "You only work four days a week!"
It's five days worth of work compressed into four days.

In actual fact it's MORE PRODUCTIVE as the ten minutes 'booking on time' doesn't exist for the fifth day, and neither does the 30 minute PNB for the fifth day, so that's 40 minutes MORE productivity than if the work was spread over five days. (That's assuming you get a PNB in your Terms & Conditions of course, as Gatwick Express drivers don't - that's right Mr Wilkinson, no 'fire breaks'). For Conductors there's the cashing up and returning their ticket machine to the office at the end of the shift too - again, time saved from a fifth day if a four day week is worked instead.

 

[talldave]

In your senior management role did you ever have the alarm go off at 3am for a 4.30 book on? Or did you waltz in the office at 9am every day? Did you ever have to work until 2am in the morning or were you home every evening with the family? We people on the ground who actually make the railway run are up at ridiculous times in the morning one week, then not getting home until the wee small hours the next.

And there are plenty of us who really appreciate that.

 

[BestWestern]

If the drivers refuse to work DOO on the new routes come July, hopefully the courts won't side with GTR like they did with GatEx, as they won't have the precedent of the same Trains already running DOO with the same amount of carriages on the same route? Then things will get interesting.

I cannot see any way in which the courts can interfere with legitimate strike action; what occurred initially was a rather different scenario involving a dispute over the validity of a 'local agreement' (which we can now presumably regard as utterly worthless in all cases?).

 

[Bellbell]

Despite the fallacy of belief of many of the website members that people in the higher echelons of senior management said to spend much shorter working hours than their employed staff and spending more time on golf courses during the working week, all I can say as one who took retirement in 2010, was that the senior management and upper middle management of my consultancy did not have that mindset and as part of the most excellent salary and bonus package that go with the responsibility of leadership, hours far in excess of the 40 hour week are worked in order to ensure that current projects are kept to the fore, as success in these fields of enterprise leads to more new future contracts being awarded to us based upon our ability to fulfil our contractual obligations.

They could probably have cut their working hours by reducing their habit of using 10 words when 1 would do.

 

[infobleep]

They could probably have cut their working hours by reducing their habit of using 10 words when 1 would do.

Perhaps some senior managers are dyslexic. The art of cutting down words isn't a skill everyone is good at.

On a separate note, could the drivers get out of their cab at each station and check all the train doors before getting back in? Thus delaying trains but claiming they are doing it for safety reasons?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[BestWestern]

On a separate note, could the drivers get out of their cab at each station and check all the train doors before getting back in? Thus delaying trains but claiming they are doing it for safety reasons?

Yes, this is called the 'Look Back' method and is how it happens currently on older stock where the platform mirrors or screens are defective.

 

[ainsworth74]

(which we can now presumably regard as utterly worthless in all cases?).

I don't think so. What appears to have happened, from my reading, is that the local agreements were not specific when it came to DOO and the length of the trains that it had been agreed could be worked under DOO. Therefore the court decided on that basis that there was no contractual term (the agreement is part of the contract of employment) that the drivers could use to refuse to work 12-car DOO and therefore GTR were within their rights to require the drivers to work those trains. ASLEF can only prevent or induce their members not to work those services if they hold a ballot which, as they had not done, meant that they couldn't at that time instruct their drivers not to work.

If the local agreements had been explicit that the drivers only agree to work up to 10-car DOO then I rather suspect that GTRs request would have been thrown out as the drivers were contracted only to work up to 10-car DOO.

So if a local agreement is specific in its terms then those terms should stand but if there is any room for interpretation then you open yourself up to a similar situation occurring.

 

[Dave1987]

I don't think so. What appears to have happened, from my reading, is that the local agreements were not specific when it came to DOO and the length of the trains that it had been agreed could be worked under DOO. Therefore the court decided on that basis that there was no contractual term (the agreement is part of the contract of employment) that the drivers could use to refuse to work 12-car DOO and therefore GTR were within their rights to require the drivers to work those trains. ASLEF can only prevent or induce their members not to work those services if they hold a ballot which, as they had not done, meant that they couldn't at that time instruct their drivers not to work.

If the local agreements had been explicit that the drivers only agree to work up to 10-car DOO then I rather suspect that GTRs request would have been thrown out as the drivers were contracted only to work up to 10-car DOO.

So if a local agreement is specific in its terms then those terms should stand but if there is any room for interpretation then you open yourself up to a similar situation occurring.

I heard on the jungle drums that there was one line in the whole agreement between ASLEF and GTR regarding the Gat Ex that got the GTR injunction through. Some seem to believe that the agreement wasn't proof read properly when it was signed by reps and this particular line was missed, but I don't know if that is true or not.

 

[sarahj]

I heard on the jungle drums that there was one line in the whole agreement between ASLEF and GTR regarding the Gat Ex that got the GTR injunction through. Some seem to believe that the agreement wasn't proof read properly when it was signed by reps and this particular line was missed, but I don't know if that is true or not.

From what I heard, it was the word 'normally' that did it. But not 100% sure if this is correct.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Just seen this on the SEG Facebook site, things have taken a very draconian turn.

https://cdn.fbsbx.com/v/t59.2708-21/13183586_10153610006151475_1548327005_n.pdf/Notification-to-Insolvency-Service-PE09052016.pdf?oh=9f083c6100e2c0cc0aa770c8bd252925&oe=5735B817&dl=1

 

[tony6499]

Just seen this on the SEG Facebook site, things have taken a very draconian turn.

https://cdn.fbsbx.com/v/t59.2708-21/13183586_10153610006151475_1548327005_n.pdf/Notification-to-Insolvency-Service-PE09052016.pdf?oh=9f083c6100e2c0cc0aa770c8bd252925&oe=5735B817&dl=1

Shocking way to treat loyal members of staff, shameful
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just seen this on the SEG Facebook site, things have taken a very draconian turn.

https://cdn.fbsbx.com/v/t59.2708-21/13183586_10153610006151475_1548327005_n.pdf/Notification-to-Insolvency-Service-PE09052016.pdf?oh=9f083c6100e2c0cc0aa770c8bd252925&oe=5735B817&dl=1

What is SEG FB site ?