Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[OliverS]

I wonder how GTR can get away with this. There are getting rid of the job of Guards and their terms and conditions and offering a meek and temporary replacement with I know will be less favourable T and Cs. This is making the Guards redundant yet there will be no redundancy payments. I mean there should be something that makes those that do not accept the OBS role eligible for a voluntary redundancy payment?

I'm sure there will be redundancy payments. But probably the statutory minimum, which is pretty derisory (having been faced with redundancy 3 times now). I fear that the union's refusal to negotiate a better deal than that for their members because they wouldn't discuss DOO is part of the cause.

This is exactly what GTR said they would do, but is probably Plan B. Plan A was to keep everyone on as OBS or Guards with no loss of pay or conditions. I doubt that is on the table anymore.

In the end it comes down to who runs the company, is it the management or is it the unions? If the former then they are perfectly within their remit to make roles and therefore people redundant, unpleasant though that always is. If it is the unions then what are the management for?

 

[FordFocus]

I think the fact that Peter Wilkinson and a couple of GTR directors were present at a meeting in Croydon and virtually declared war on staff and unions says to me that the DfT are the main driving force.

 

[Surreytraveller]

In the end it comes down to who runs the company, is it the management or is it the unions?

Neither. It is the Government. GTR will come out the other end in the same position as the union and the staff.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

In my experience, a firm can make a "job role" redundant rather than the person. The job has to cease to exist. How companies get round this is to either downsize and interview (with some individuals obviously not being successful) or to regrade job roles (usually with inferior T & C's)

With respect to GTR, the new job roles (OBS) have to be very different from that of the old job roles (guard/conductor). How they will have rewritten or redivised the new OBS roles I obviously woudn't know. But would an OBS be like a Virgin Train Manager?

I assume GTR management have done their homework (and sought HR advice where necessary) - otherwise there is going to be a lot of embarrassment when they find out their actions are illegal in a grand court case.

But what I don't get is - why are Southern guards being asked to apply for a Conductor's role, or an OBS role. Any Southern conductor surely is going to (re)apply for their own job - and good on them too (e.g. SarahJ)

What can GTR do if every Southern guard/conductor applies for a conductor role? Unless there are fewer roles now to go around.

 

[tony6499]

It would be nice if the RMT came out and let the public know exactly what is going on, why the trains are cancelled and it's not Conductors off sick.

The RMT need to up their PR game both for staff and the general public because if the strikes escalate to other TOCS they need the public support to win.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It would be nice if the RMT came out and let the public know exactly what is going on, why the trains are cancelled and it's not Conductors off sick.

I think you'll find it's Southern letting the public know rather than the RMT

 

[Deepgreen]

I think you'll find it's Southern letting the public know rather than the RMT

Yes, but I think the point was that perhaps RMT should also give an account of the situation to allow the public to understand it from their viewpoint.

 

[47513 Severn]

Yes, but I think the point was that perhaps RMT should also give an account of the situation to allow the public to understand it from their viewpoint.

They would need to seriously tone down the dramatic language of their press releases or such a move could well backfire.

And possibly accept that the unions don't actually run the railway but I appreciate that would be a tall order.

 

[Agent_c]

If it is the unions then what are the management for?

Pushing around paper, deciding whether to paint the office grey-blue or blue-grey and pretending that they actually do some productive work.

 

[Deepgreen]

They would need to seriously tone down the dramatic language of their press releases or such a move could well backfire.

And possibly accept that the unions don't actually run the railway but I appreciate that would be a tall order.

The RMT would need to set out their case for action succinctly and with clear reasons for their concerns. It doesn't need to have dramatic language but could point to incidents where they believe safety has been compromised.

I think the fundamental point here is that no one body runs the railway - the staff/unions, management and government all must play their parts and must be in reasonable harmony for it to succeed.

It's certainly the case that unhappy staff are not conducive to good productivity, but also that traditional roles must sometimes evolve to meet the demands of the times, as long as that evolution is properly managed and controlled, especially where safety assurances are needed. It would appear that, in this case, that evolution has not been well managed, and that a test case is possibly being pushed from the dark shadows of government.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It does get me when folks and the company go on about people not working rest days. You should be able to enjoy your one day off after you have worked, 5/6/7 days. Even before the strike and these issues, the numbers were very tight and cancellations were happening. Now that folks cannot work their rest days (and for many they now have to factor in the extra expense of travel and parking, and any extra inducements have been banned, eg work for 8 hours, get 10 hours pay).

Anyway, to add to the stress, new letter today. We have from the 11th to the 20th to apply either to become a OBS or stay as conductor*, if not notice will be given.
A 'fun' letter, telling us that DOO is safe, in fact, safer than the current way. Must give comfort to the recent folks who have been dragged down the platform.

Stress factor, now off the charts.
* limited positions, 313/171 only, first come, first served.

The next question of course is what has ASLEF said or done about the obvious end result of this - a big increase in DOO routes. The company cannot claim it is just making a DOO train a bit longer, as the end result is DOO working on a whole host of routes where there is currently no DOO working at all.

My gut feeling is that if enough £££ are waved around at Aslef people, then their aversion to any extension of DOO will suddenly be forgotten, and the "joint union agreement" is not worth the paper it's written on. They have remained strangely silent on the subject, which don't forget is a completely different situation and matter to the GatEx 12 car issue.

 

[tony6499]

The next question of course is what has ASLEF said or done about the obvious end result of this - a big increase in DOO routes. The company cannot claim it is just making a DOO train a bit longer, as the end result is DOO working on a whole host of routes where there is currently no DOO working at all.

My gut feeling is that if enough £££ are waved around at Aslef people, then their aversion to any extension of DOO will suddenly be forgotten, and the "joint union agreement" is not worth the paper it's written on. They have remained strangely silent on the subject, which don't forget is a completely different situation and matter to the GatEx 12 car issue.

I think the ultimate end game is to reduce drivers pay as the DfT idiot at the Croydon meeting mentioned Drivers, so i doubt they will offer them any financial inducements except if you want to keep your job do as you're told.

 

[Southern Dvr]

My gut feeling is that if enough £££ are waved around at Aslef people, then their aversion to any extension of DOO will suddenly be forgotten, and the "joint union agreement" is not worth the paper it's written on. They have remained strangely silent on the subject, which don't forget is a completely different situation and matter to the GatEx 12 car issue.

I'm offended by that, being an 'ASLEF person' who is against any further DOO.

 

[skyeeloy34]

Southern and all on twitter are saying the strike for 20th May has been moved to
18th May..

 

[HLE]

It needs a longer strike than 1 day.

Is there a limit for how long a strike can be called for?

 

[Carlisle]

It would appear that, in this case, that evolution has not been well managed, and that a test case is possibly being pushed from the dark shadows of government.

I think your totally correct I'm sure govt/DFT took on board the much gentler approach FGW/GWR took last year and how difficult it proved to get any type of agreement there before giving GTR the green light to behave so aggressively

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And possibly accept that the unions don't actually run the railway but I appreciate that would be a tall order.

Of course, if the union could decide that there are now 21st century means to access capital, given an opportunity to run a franchise, it would be interesting to see how much of a success they would make in running a franchise with all that entails. It cannot be too difficult from what I read in some postings on this thread about the amount of work that is actually done by the by the TOC management to ensure profits go to the expected quarter, but just imagine that with a union-led franchise with the stated dedication of the top union management, how much money would then be available to the union coffers when the borrowed finance monthly/quarterly payments to the lenders of the capital and the leasing costs of the units are paid.

No staff reductions to worry about, no DOO, a second man in the cab....life would be just one long party....

 

[Flamingo]

I think your totally correct I'm sure govt/DFT took on board the much gentler approach FGW/GWR took last year and how difficult it proved to get any type of agreement there before giving GTR the green light to behave so aggressively

Ours was quite nasty enough, and had the potential to get much nastier, until it was suddenly realised in certain quarters that the new trains etc were MUCH further off than was originally forecast, and the cat had been let out of the bag way too early!

I don't think it is anything like finished in GWR land, just on hold...

 

[Agent_c]

It needs a longer strike than 1 day.

Is there a limit for how long a strike can be called for?

I think it depends how long you're willing to go without food, or how long your bills can pile up.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The next question of course is what has ASLEF said or done about the obvious end result of this - a big increase in DOO routes. The company cannot claim it is just making a DOO train a bit longer, as the end result is DOO working on a whole host of routes where there is currently no DOO working at all.

My gut feeling is that if enough £££ are waved around at Aslef people, then their aversion to any extension of DOO will suddenly be forgotten, and the "joint union agreement" is not worth the paper it's written on. They have remained strangely silent on the subject, which don't forget is a completely different situation and matter to the GatEx 12 car issue.

The money aspect was enough back in BR days, however ASLEF have coordinated the keep the guard on the train campaign with RMT. I think they are now at the stage where enough is enough as they realise they are probably next.

 

[74A]

I'm offended by that, being an 'ASLEF person' who is against any further DOO.

Still no sign of ASLEF ballot.

 

[ajb690]

Southern and all on twitter are saying the strike for 20th May has been moved to
18th May..

Here's a link to the RMT's official announcement confirming the date change.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-announces-new-southern-guards-strike-action/

RMT announces new Southern guards strike action as company steps up attacks on staff.

RAIL UNION RMT confirmed today that it has switched the next strike date for action involving guards on GTR Southern as the company steps up its attacks on staff supporting the union campaign over the threat to the role of the guards and the undermining of rail safety.


The union executive has agreed to switch the strike action called for Friday 20th May and is instructing guards members to take strike action by not working any shifts that book on between 0001 and 2359 on Wednesday 18th May.
RMT has switched the date of the action in response to the threatening and abusive stance the company is adopting towards union members using their basic human right to strike in defence of rail safety. Those threats include setting a deadline of the 20th May for staff to sign up to the company plans regardless of the impact on jobs, working conditions and safety.


A fresh wave of campaigning, targeted at building on public support for RMT’s fight with Southern over the future of safe staffing levels and safe train operation, is stepping up a gear as the union moves the dispute forwards.
RMT General Secretary, Mick Cash said:

“The union has once again reassessed the tactics of the dispute and, recognising the hostile and aggressive stance taken by the company as we fight for the basic principles of rail safety, RMT’s executive has decided to switch the next phase of action to the 18th May two days before Southern’s outrageous ultimatum to staff.

“Southern GTR should be under no illusions, the union will not bend to their bullying and threats and we will be out there building on the huge public support we have already mobilised in a campaign that pitches the demands for increasing private profits against safety on our railways. The company know that they are losing the public battle and have resorted to some of the dirtiest tactics seen in an industrial struggle in Britain in many years. They will not get away with those attacks on basic human rights.

“Southern GTR fleeces its passengers for a fortune in fares for unreliable and overcrowded services and RMT will not allow safety to be the next thing sacrificed in the dash for fatter and fatter profits on this rail franchise. RMT is now looking to build support from across the trade union movement for this important fight which defines the nature of industrial relations in Britain in 2016. ”

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I'm offended by that, being an 'ASLEF person' who is against any further DOO.

Sorry, this wasn't meant to offend, BUT I know from my own company that what Aslef says is not always the same as what Aslef does, especially when the national EC get involved with negotiations at TOCs, where recently with us what they negotiated and recommended did nothing to address the concerns at local level but did everything to further their own agenda and protect jobs of their members at other companies. Not surprisingly it wasn't accepted locally when a ballot overwhelmingly rejected it.

In the case of Southern conductors it is obvious now that GTR have a timescale for a wider roll out of DOO so where is Aslef now? They should be saying we are not accepting it and if you sack the guards no trains will run on these new DOO routes, and ballot for their own action. Their silence on this matter is somewhat concerning, especially as there are now clear timescales and deadlines involved.

 

[74A]

I wonder how GTR can get away with this. There are getting rid of the job of Guards and their terms and conditions and offering a meek and temporary replacement with I know will be less favourable T and Cs. This is making the Guards redundant yet there will be no redundancy payments. I mean there should be something that makes those that do not accept the OBS role eligible for a voluntary redundancy payment?

The staff are in dispute so will not be offered redundancy. If you take redundancy you are accepting what GTR want. They have been given 12 weeks notice. You are only protected from dismissal for 12 weeks. If they are still in dispute after this time then they can be dismissed with no payoff.

The reason RMT have moved the strike to the 18 May is to give the staff a couple of days before GTR deadline to decide to take the OBS role or stay conductor. They will also be able to see how many conductors decide to come into work before making their decision.

 

[HLE]

I think it depends how long you're willing to go without food, or how long your bills can pile up.

True. But one day isn't enough. They need to strike for a wee bit longer so that enough chaos is caused which forces GTR to get back round the negotiating table. The RMT and the guards should stay firm and continue to not back down.

 

[chris11256]

I can't see most people striking for more than 2-3 days a month. It'd seriously cut into your monthly pay packet.

 

[Goldfish62]

Stagecoach will not win the next South West franchise because it will be requiring DOO which Brian doesn't want.

Well, "Brian" has not had a vote on the Stagecoach board since he stepped down as CEO to become Chairman in 2012 so it doesn't matter what he thinks, not that I doubt that he cares less anyway.

I cannot believe that Stagecoach are fundamentally opposed to DOO. They are only pretending to do so at the moment because it suits them to in the smooth running of the existing SWT franchise. If they are required to implement DOO in the next franchise (assuming that they don't bid on that basis anyway) they will go full steam ahead - and Stagecoach have a history of dealing savagely with industrial disputes.

 

[Secrettraindri]

Of course, if the union could decide that there are now 21st century means to access capital, given an opportunity to run a franchise, it would be interesting to see how much of a success they would make in running a franchise with all that entails. It cannot be too difficult from what I read in some postings on this thread about the amount of work that is actually done by the by the TOC management to ensure profits go to the expected quarter, but just imagine that with a union-led franchise with the stated dedication of the top union management, how much money would then be available to the union coffers when the borrowed finance monthly/quarterly payments to the lenders of the capital and the leasing costs of the units are paid.

No staff reductions to worry about, no DOO, a second man in the cab....life would be just one long party....

You might actually find if you spoke to any of the members, that they don't think they can run the company better, or think that it's any union's job to do so. They just want their employer to be fair and not take them to court to overturn agreements that they freely entered into. Or be able to combat such bullying tactics without the stakes being raised even further. Or get some recognition of the liability that they are increasingly expected to carry. If you ever fancy a management career at GTR, I'm sure they'd welcome you with open arms.

 

[PlatformPete]

Still no sign of ASLEF ballot.

You sure?

Think of them like a Swan! Slowly cruising on the Water whilst out of sight things are moving rapidly!!!
Injunctions have that kind of effect

 

[physics34]

Still no sign of ASLEF ballot.

recieved it through the post this morning