Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[highdyke]

At least they care about equality, OBS will worsen it.

They care about themselves and only themselves. Don't kid yourself otherwise.

 

[Haig paxton]

Pay who a living wage? £33k for an OBS? Worth more than a nurse, 5 years degree level training v a few months sub GSCE. Get real.

TOC apologist, better than being union dinosaur holding the country to ransom for selfish ideals.

You probably didn't join a union either. I think you're also confusing nursing (3 years) with the MBChB (5 years).

 

[speedy_sticks]

They care about themselves and only themselves. Don't kid yourself otherwise.

I am strictly neutral in this debate.

But the fact is that having a guaRd on my train assures me traveling on that train, under OBS policy, it will become a lot more unpredictable.

 

[highdyke]

You probably didn't join a union either. I think you're also confusing nursing (3 years) with the MBChB (5 years).

I joined two, they were both crap frankly. If they were any good, they'd commission a report from leading safety experts showing the facts instead of endless politically motivated, divisive press releases. More interested in power rather than problem solving.
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I am strictly neutral in this debate.

But the fact is that having a guaRd on my train assures me traveling on that train, under OBS policy, it will become a lot more unpredictable.

Good luck in your case, you have my sympathy more than everyone else put together!

 

[Carlisle]

The drivers don't want this responsibility either. You fail to grasp that too.

Virtually nobody in any line of work will want to take on more duties if we don't really have to including myself, but change happens, get over it

 

[Wolfie]

One this is quite clear you are not prepared to listen to any other point of view, yet I have listened to yours. I have already said that various parties should be involved in developing this method of working, more than they perhaps have done in the past. What's wrong with that?

The fact is you are an angry little man that is incapable of finding work outside the rail industry because of your own personal failures. That is why you are so frightened and do not want to compromise.

As an outsider to the railway industry l have to say that the sort of arrogant attitude, ignoring what seem to be very valid safety concerns, that you have displayed make me think heavy investment into automated signalling systems to get rid of opinionated individuals could be a very good way ahead.

Yes l am denigrating your field of work just as you have others!

 

[highdyke]

As an outsider to the railway industry l have to say that the sort of arrogant attitude, ignoring what seem to be very valid safety concerns, that you have displayed make me think heavy investment into automated signalling systems to get rid of opinionated individuals could be a very good way ahead.

Yes l am denigrating your field of work just as you have others!

The only arrogant people are those that expect automatic sympathy, causing countless issues for passengers, based on nothing much really. You might not be able to see the bull****, I can smell it from a mile.

The resignalling is already happening, embraced in a mature way by the signalling grade.

PS I left years ago, makes no difference to me.

 

[Wolfie]

The only arrogant people are those that expect automatic sympathy, causing countless issues for passengers, based on nothing much really. You might not be able to see the bull****, I can smell it from a mile.

The resignalling is already happening, embraced in a mature way by the signalling grade.

There are those who might say detecting something that you have written copious quantities of isn't exactly rocket science...

 

[highdyke]

There are those who might say detecting something that you have written copious quantities of isn't exactly rocket science...

Well you've clearly nothing to add, whatsoever.

 

[Dave1987]

highdyke you are/were a signaller. You clearly haven't been a driver yet you have made some pretty strong comments that I would suggest only those of us in the driving grade are able to make. Some on here seem to believe the GSMR is this wonderful infallible bit of kit. It isn't which is why emergency protection and SPT's are still in existence in the rule book and out on the ground. Yes GSMR is miles better than CSR or NRN ever were but it still has its faults, loses signal, connects you to the wrong panel etc etc....

 

[highdyke]

highdyke you are/were a signaller. You clearly haven't been a driver yet you have made some pretty strong comments that I would suggest only those of us in the driving grade are able to make. Some on here seem to believe the GSMR is this wonderful infallible bit of kit. It isn't which is why emergency protection and SPT's are still in existence in the rule book and out on the ground.

GSM-R or mobile are not infallible no, there are SPTs still provided true. Emergency protection with detonators is still there, but by far the worst option as you well know as is almost never used on the modern railway in the age of mobile communications.

Strong comments about the driving grade? Which ones. Unfortunately for you train crew not beyond reproach, there is more to DOO than both these grades. Moreover, they have a vested interest which must always be open to question. They do not have a monopoly on understanding railway operations, the truth or anything else.

 

[Wolfie]

Well you've clearly nothing to add, whatsoever.

Whereas you clearly think that you do despite the holes and fallacies in your input having been repeatedly addressed.

Opinions are like buttholes, we all have one. I am amused, particularly after 30 years of Whitehall experience, at the fact that, with very little apparent sense of your own limitations in experience etc, you rate your own so highly. You mentioned involvement in Inquiries.. let me just say that if you had taken a similar attitude in some of the Inquiries l've been involved with the QCs leading would have ripped you a second butthole...

 

[Haig paxton]

Strong comments about the driving grade? Which ones. I've suffered endless personal attacks, which proves to me beyond all doubt arguments are weak.

GSM-R or mobile are not infallible no, there are SPTs still provided true. Emergency protection with detonators is still there, but by far the worst option as you well know as is almost never used on the modern railway in the age of mobile communications.

You've been out of the signalling grade for years too you claim so you aren't even able to comment on the attributes or failings of GSM-R with any element of authority.

 

[highdyke]

You've been out of the signalling grade for years too you claim so you aren't even able to comment on the attributes or failings of GSM-R with any element of authority.

You don't even know how axle counters work with any authority.
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Whereas you clearly think that you do despite the holes and fallacies in your input having been repeatedly addressed.

Opinions are like buttholes, we all have one. I am amused, particularly after 30 years of Whitehall experience, at the fact that, with very little apparent sense of your own limitations in experience etc, you rate your own so highly. You mentioned involvement in Inquiries.. let me just say that if you had taken a similar attitude in some of the Inquiries l've been involved with the QCs leading would have ripped you a second butthole...

You rate yourself so highly, that's the third attack you have made on me, without adding anything to this debate whosoever.

 

[ainsworth74]

I was on a train involved in an incident which reinforced, to my mind, the absolute necessity for there being at least two members of staff on the vast majority of services.

The train I was on today was a traditional driver/guard operated service and shortly after departure from an intermediate station the guard came over the PA to request anyone with medical knowledge or training to make themselves known to him in the middle of the train.

Whilst the guard was able to deal with the medical emergency (helped by an off-duty doctor) the driver took the train forward to the next station where the train was promptly met by paramedics and police who removed the passenger from the train.

Whilst this was ongoing the guard was also able to keep the remaining passengers informed and liase with the emergency services (until the Network Rail MOM arrived at least) whilst, as far as I'm aware, the driver coordinated with railway control.

If this train had been truly DOO with only the driver on board then the whole situation would most likely have worked out very much differently.

The first time a member of railway staff (who could coordinate things) would have known about it is when someone pulled the emergency cord, which on the stock we were on, would have just dumped the brake meaning we would have ended up stopped in the middle of nowhere rather than an easily accessible station. Getting the message out that medical assistance was required would have taken longer. Communicating the situation to passengers would have been impossible as the driver would be busy dealing with the medical emergency situation, trying to coordinate getting the train met by emergency services and trying to keep railway control informed of what's going on.

Whether or not the second member of staff is safety critical and no matter who does the doors a second member of staff on nearly every service is vital as far as I'm concerned. My experience today just unarguably proves that.

And yes an email to the relevant TOC praising their staff will be on its way shortly.

 

[Haig paxton]

You don't even know how axle counters work with any authority.
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You rate yourself so highly, that's the third attack you have made on me, without adding anything to this debate whosoever.

I do have the experience and authority to detect NPD though.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

I do have the experience and authority to detect NPD though.

I must confess, I had to google that one ! I am quite happy to admit I don't know everything about everything, especially in regards to things I have never done
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was on a train involved in an incident which reinforced, to my mind, the absolute necessity for there being at least two members of staff on the vast majority of services.

The train I was on today was a traditional driver/guard operated service and shortly after departure from an intermediate station the guard came over the PA to request anyone with medical knowledge or training to make themselves known to him in the middle of the train.

Whilst the guard was able to deal with the medical emergency (helped by an off-duty doctor) the driver took the train forward to the next station where the train was promptly met by paramedics and police who removed the passenger from the train.

Whilst this was ongoing the guard was also able to keep the remaining passengers informed and liase with the emergency services (until the Network Rail MOM arrived at least) whilst, as far as I'm aware, the driver coordinated with railway control.

If this train had been truly DOO with only the driver on board then the whole situation would most likely have worked out very much differently.

The first time a member of railway staff (who could coordinate things) would have known about it is when someone pulled the emergency cord, which on the stock we were on, would have just dumped the brake meaning we would have ended up stopped in the middle of nowhere rather than an easily accessible station. Getting the message out that medical assistance was required would have taken longer. Communicating the situation to passengers would have been impossible as the driver would be busy dealing with the medical emergency situation, trying to coordinate getting the train met by emergency services and trying to keep railway control informed of what's going on.

Whether or not the second member of staff is safety critical and no matter who does the doors a second member of staff on nearly every service is vital as far as I'm concerned. My experience today just unarguably proves that.

And yes an email to the relevant TOC praising their staff will be on its way shortly.

This is one of the major points, whoever you have as the 2nd person on a train HAS to be fully trained in emergency procedures and have route knowledge. If they don't, they are just a figure in a uniform. The renumeration for that person will be substantial. So they may as well work the bloody doors for extra safety as well as all the other stuff.

What's that job called ? Oh yes, a guard.

Passengers/customers/whatever you want to call them pay a bloody fortune to be transported on our trains. How a 12 car unit with hundreds of people on board with just the driver being fully responsible, and solely responsible for everything is not just clearly stupid, it's insulting when people have paid so much for a service.

There are dozens upon dozens upon dozens of things a good guard does - do you know many of them even tidy the trains of litter in sidings before going back into service etc.. ?

The railway is safe. why is it safe, because of years of deaths and because of the training and dedication of most railway staff, including the much valued and admired signallers. Why should we be racing to degrade this hard earned learning curve and make things less safe to save a couple of bloody pounds on a service people are already paying eye watering amounts to use.

HIGHDYKE, you say you've been made redundant as a signaller twice, I feel sorry for you, I truly due, but your bitter, it happened to me, so screw the rest of the railway attitude shines through your every post.

You know NOTHING about being a guard or a driver other than what you have seen as a passenger or on cab ride, yet you profess to know it all.

You claim the unions have vested interests, yet you defend the RSSB, DFT and TOC rulers against any allegation of vested interest. Really ? ever heard of a chap called Marples in regard to railway history ?

In my experience most drivers and guards, despite the fact that they would never say it and hide behind a veneer of cynicism TRULY have the safety of their passengers right at the forefront of their raison d' etre.

Driver's jobs are safe if universal DOO comes in, hell they'll get £10 K more, at least, but doesn't the fact that virtually all experienced drivers and ASLEF are dead set against it make you wonder why ? Just a little ?

 

[highdyke]

I do have the experience and authority to detect NPD though.

Yeah right. Anyway enough of the personal attacks. Clearly the level of debate is not great here, so it's time to head someone else to spend time. No, I'm not 100% right or always right, do not know everything, and never claimed so.

There is issuex with DOO, it certainly isn't perfect. Unfortunately I don't think the issue is going to go away in the industry and I can see it dragging on and on. A great shame.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Yeah right. Anyway enough of the personal attacks. Clearly the level of debate is not great here, so it's time to head someone else to spend time. No, I'm not 100% right or always right, do not know everything, and never claimed so.

There is issuex with DOO, it certainly isn't perfect. Unfortunately I don't think the issue is going to go away in the industry and I can see it dragging on and on. A great shame.

I don't mind personal attacks, such as being called an angry little man with no intellect and no prospects off the railways due to my lack of skill set.

The DOO spectre isn't going to go away, and it is a great shame, because it's not good for the industry, or it's paying passengers, and it's not progress, it's retrogressive

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't mind personal attacks, such as being called an angry little man with no intellect and no prospects off the railways due to my lack of skill set.

The DOO spectre isn't going to go away, and it is a great shame, because it's not good for the industry, or it's paying passengers, and it's not progress, it's retrogressive

How is it retrogressive to remove the second employee from the train? Haven't railways always had guards?

 

[speedy_sticks]

How is it retrogressive to remove the second employee from the train? Haven't railways always had guards?

Borrow a wheelchair for a month after OBS comes in, then your know.....

 

[highdyke]

I don't mind personal attacks, such as being called an angry little man with no intellect and no prospects off the railways due to my lack of skill set.

I'm sorry about that, I don't actually think you are btw in reality. Maybe return for the comments about being mentally and physically deranged etc? lol

HIGHDYKE, you say you've been made redundant as a signaller twice, I feel sorry for you, I truly due, but your bitter, it happened to me, so screw the rest of the railway attitude shines through your every post.

You know NOTHING about being a guard or a driver other than what you have seen as a passenger or on cab ride, yet you profess to know it all.

No I'm not bitter, leaving the railway was the best thing I ever did. Awful place, I do not want the shifts or responsibility, I've seen careers and lives ruined in seconds too much. I never wanted to be a driver, that's not to say I have no interest in it. I know the rules that apply to being a driver, and know or have been related to drivers. I have listened to many of their problems, some are valid, others less so, and admired their dedication. I do not know everything about their job, or ever claimed to. I understand how railways operate, the pitfalls and problems. It's not screw the railway at all, it's just an alternative point of view. A look at how things things work for another point of view which train crew do not have. Please remember DOO affects Guards, Drivers, Signallers, Platform staff.

I don't want to drone on, I have *an* opinion, not *the only* opinion. Time to let others get their points across now...

 

[Domh245]

Borrow a wheelchair for a month after OBS comes in, then your know.....

I think that in this case it was an argument about semantics. Retrogressive would imply a return to the past, which would be an odd statement to make as in the past all trains had guards.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

How is it retrogressive to remove the second employee from the train? Haven't railways always had guards?

You misconstrued me, or I explained poorly, I am a driver, and I think removing the guard to introduce more DOO or some "OBS" in a lesser role is retrogressive
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I'm sorry about that, I don't actually think you are btw in reality. Maybe return for the comments about being mentally and physically deranged etc? lol



No I'm not bitter, leaving the railway was the best thing I ever did. Awful place, I do not want the shifts or responsibility, I've seen careers and lives ruined in seconds too much. I never wanted to be a driver, that's not to say I have no interest in it. I know the rules that apply to being a driver, and know or have been related to drivers. I have listened to many of their problems, some are valid, others less so, and admired their dedication. I do not know everything about their job, or ever claimed to. I understand how railways operate, the pitfalls and problems. It's not screw the railway at all, it's just an alternative point of view. A look at how things things work for another point of view which train crew do not have. Please remember DOO affects Guards, Drivers, Signallers, Platform staff.

I don't want to drone on, I have *an* opinion, not *the only* opinion. Time to let others get their points across now...

Apology accepted, but not sought or required, I bear no harsh feelings or trauma about being slagged off. I dish it out sometimes, I can take it back

 

[313103]

I think that the best thing us railwayworkers should do is accept that mcnulty will come in and accept that very few of us will be railwayworkers, then those nasty greedy rail unions (well the rmt) will be destroyed, everyone will then be happy and have nothing to moan about.

 

[Dimwit]

If all guards do is press a button to shut doors, why do they take so long to train up...like 6 months or something? Maybe that suggests there's more to the roll than already spoken about..

 

[highdyke]

Apology accepted, but not sought or required, I bear no harsh feelings or trauma about being slagged off. I dish it out sometimes, I can take it back

Fair enough, I'll look forward to my apologies from numerous individuals, but I won't be getting any. The whole aim of certain forum members is to insult people till they leave, or simply shut the debate down (You don't know/jealousy/I know best). Delete as appropriate. If that's the way people want to play it so be it. They can comment on a whole manner of things well outside their area of expertise or knowledge, but nobody else is allowed the same about them, whoever they are. Imagine if that was a new rule in the world tomorrow, nobody would allowed to vote, challenge religion or science, come up with new ideas, have an opinion about anything unless they had direct knowledge and experience and everyone agreed they could not be challenged. Sounds hellish to me, freedom of thought and opinion gone, a world of intolerance and fascism.

I won't be continuing because it's a waste of energy and pointless, a slanging match makes everyone look foolish and nobody learns a thing from either point of view. I'll quit now, it'll please some but doesn't change a thing.

 

[XDM]

I think that the best thing us railwayworkers should do is accept that mcnulty will come in and accept that very few of us will be railwayworkers, then those nasty greedy rail unions (well the rmt) will be destroyed, everyone will then be happy and have nothing to moan about.

Half true. Drivers are the past,present & future. Guards in this digital age are as ludicrous as the man in a top hat who walked in front of locos with a red flag in 1826. In 30 years our children will find a person who rang bells & got down at platforms as odd as the red flag man. Speedy sticks,& me in my very old age, can be aided by OBS,station staff & level platforms.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It's a shame that there can't be a few "fly-on-the-wall" tv series, each series covering a different job

* Guard (probably commercial as commercial stuff is probably not that much extra to lean on top of the stuff for non-commercial)
* Driving
* Dispatcher
* Signaler
* Track worker (PWay, signal maintenance, etc)

It would probably give anyone who doesn't them jobs an understanding of what the people doing them jobs have to learn and what them jobs actually entail
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's a shame that there can't be a few "fly-on-the-wall" tv series, each series covering a different job

* Guard (probably commercial as commercial stuff is probably not that much extra to lean on top of the stuff for non-commercial)
* Driving
* Dispatcher
* Signaler
* Track worker (PWay, signal maintenance, etc)

It would probably give anyone who doesn't them jobs an understanding of what the people doing them jobs have to learn and what them jobs actually entail

 

[Sadsmileyface]

I was on a train involved in an incident which reinforced, to my mind, the absolute necessity for there being at least two members of staff on the vast majority of services.



The train I was on today was a traditional driver/guard operated service and shortly after departure from an intermediate station the guard came over the PA to request anyone with medical knowledge or training to make themselves known to him in the middle of the train.



Whilst the guard was able to deal with the medical emergency (helped by an off-duty doctor) the driver took the train forward to the next station where the train was promptly met by paramedics and police who removed the passenger from the train.



Whilst this was ongoing the guard was also able to keep the remaining passengers informed and liase with the emergency services (until the Network Rail MOM arrived at least) whilst, as far as I'm aware, the driver coordinated with railway control.



If this train had been truly DOO with only the driver on board then the whole situation would most likely have worked out very much differently.



The first time a member of railway staff (who could coordinate things) would have known about it is when someone pulled the emergency cord, which on the stock we were on, would have just dumped the brake meaning we would have ended up stopped in the middle of nowhere rather than an easily accessible station. Getting the message out that medical assistance was required would have taken longer. Communicating the situation to passengers would have been impossible as the driver would be busy dealing with the medical emergency situation, trying to coordinate getting the train met by emergency services and trying to keep railway control informed of what's going on.



Whether or not the second member of staff is safety critical and no matter who does the doors a second member of staff on nearly every service is vital as far as I'm concerned. My experience today just unarguably proves that.



And yes an email to the relevant TOC praising their staff will be on its way shortly.

DOO doesn't mean that all the conductors and ticket examiners are getting the sack. TOCs will always value revenue protection. In your example, the ticket examiner or conductor would most likely still be there and would have done same thing. You don't need super special army training to call the driver to tell him there's a sick passenger.

More scaremongering, more misleading Union rhetoric that you've completely gobbled up.