Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Haig paxton]

Flipping superb comment for him to make in this thread, the mind boggles
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Then what? Can that person reach it? What if not?

Then they're trapped on the train forever! Going back and forward all day! These situtions are going to happen.

 

[speedy_sticks]

Pull the cord.

I refuse to do that, but some here hope that customers would vilify disabled people for holding up the majority of customers because they have the sheer audacity to have a mobility problem and simply only want to maybe work and contribute to society.

I think that's a deeply unfortunate opinion

I wounder if the emergency buttons in the disabled area can be routed to the door panels rather than the driver like on Virgin West Coast?

 

[SPADTrap]

Then they're trapped on the train forever! Going back and forward all day! These situtions are going to happen.

Yeah I've dealt with exactly that. It isn't nice. Somehow I think you'd have an MP to write to if it happened to you.

 

[AlterEgo]

GTR Isn't wholly DOO Yet.

Obviously not.

Thameslink and GN is what I meant, the old FCC!

 

[speedy_sticks]

Obviously not.

Thameslink and GN is what I meant, the old FCC!

Well they aren't in my patch, but the stations I use are all staffed which I do use. Situation is very different down south with all the branch lines etc.
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Yeah I've dealt with exactly that. It isn't nice. Somehow I think you'd have an MP to write to if it happened to you.

My experience tells me that most of the Conservative MPs only want to focus on the issues that effect delays rather than confronting the uncomfortable truth of worse accesibility it will cause.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yeah I've dealt with exactly that. It isn't nice. Somehow I think you'd have an MP to write to if it happened to you.

Agreed. It's not acceptable to suggest passengers can just be stranded in that way. This would definitely be in breach of the Equality Act.

I still don't think most people have grasped that what is being proposed isn't against the law. So, a better use of people's energies would be to engage with disability rights charities, rather than sounding off on the board...

Oh and have the RMT made a campaign partnership with any disabled charities on this issue, instead of relying on the usual Marxist bull they come out with?

What are you guys paying your subs for??
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Well they aren't in my patch, but the stations I use are all staffed which I do use. Situation is very different down south with all the branch lines etc.
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My experience tells me that most of the Conservative MPs only want to focus on the issues that effect delays rather than confronting the uncomfortable truth of worse accesibility it will cause.

Agreed on both counts.

But still, the situation is the same north of the river. Local stations you can't use, and they've been like that for years and years. I'm not saying this is a good thing, I'm trying to bring some context to the debate.

 

[Haig paxton]

In my experience disabled travellers are amongst the rudest and ignorant people out there, in fact some are deliberately inconvenient. I used to travel between Stirling and Perth daily and there was a man in a wheelchair who caught the same train most days. Now the station staff pushed him from his taxi to the platform but he refused to let them push him up the ramp on to the train. He preferred to hold us all up by ten minutes every morning by insisting on walking up the ramp very slowly then collapsing into three seats at once, all the time shouting at people. My point is that it doesn't matter what they do to help disabled passengers, it's never good enough.

 

[AlterEgo]

In my experience disabled travellers are amongst the rudest and ignorant people out there, in fact some are deliberately inconvenient. I used to travel between Stirling and Perth daily and there was a man in a wheelchair who caught the same train most days. Now the station staff pushed him from his taxi to the platform but he refused to let them push him up the ramp on to the train. He preferred to hold us all up by ten minutes every morning by insisting on walking up the ramp very slowly then collapsing into three seats at once, all the time shouting at people. My point is that it doesn't matter what they do to help disabled passengers, it's never good enough.

Are you a guard?

 

[SPADTrap]

Agreed. It's not acceptable to suggest passengers can just be stranded in that way. This would definitely be in breach of the Equality Act.

I still don't think most people have grasped that what is being proposed isn't against the law. So, a better use of people's energies would be to engage with disability rights charities, rather than sounding off on the board...

Oh and have the RMT made a campaign partnership with any disabled charities on this issue, instead of relying on the usual Marxist bull they come out with?

What are you guys paying your subs for??
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Agreed on both counts.

But still, the situation is the same north of the river. Local stations you can't use, and they've been like that for years and years. I'm not saying this is a good thing, I'm trying to bring some context to the debate.

I don't pay subs to RMT as I am not a member, I'm a driver and I feel the same, I've seen what DOO can do to people like that, its embarrassing in the least, I don't feel as if I work within a future proof railway that has made progress.

 

[Haig paxton]

Are you a guard?

No I am not. It's the same with buses, there are routes nationwide that have been axed because operators cannot justify buying new low floor buses to replace perhaps the elderly minibus that was adequate for 99% of users. Lifeline services are being cancelled because of this nonsense.

 

[NSEFAN]

In my experience disabled travellers are amongst the rudest and ignorant people out there, in fact some are deliberately inconvenient. I used to travel between Stirling and Perth daily and there was a man in a wheelchair who caught the same train most days. Now the station staff pushed him from his taxi to the platform but he refused to let them push him up the ramp on to the train. He preferred to hold us all up by ten minutes every morning by insisting on walking up the ramp very slowly then collapsing into three seats at once, all the time shouting at people. My point is that it doesn't matter what they do to help disabled passengers, it's never good enough.

It's hardly fair to tar everyone with the same brush based on your bad experiences with a miserable git from Perth.

GTR is wholly DOO, and call at stations which are unstaffed for portions of the day's service.

Look at Cricklewood station. It has 24h service yet staffing is available only for just over half the day. There's also no ramp for train access and one platform can't even be reached step-free.

This appears to still satisfy the law.

This line was made DOO at a time when little regard was given to disabled people, hence I can see grandfather rights applying. The question that's still unanswered is if it's legally acceptable, with the current legislation, to reduce the accessibility of the trains that are currently guarded. This is ultimately what will happen, since disabled passengers can no longer reliably turn up and go.

I honestly don't know the answer but my gut feeling is that it's not okay to do this. It'd be like saying we could make new trains less crashworthy because we already have ones with poor crashworthiness elsewhere; any change brought in should at the very least maintain the status quo (if it's not an improvement).

 

[Robertj21a]

No I am not. It's the same with buses, there are routes nationwide that have been axed because operators cannot justify buying new low floor buses to replace perhaps the elderly minibus that was adequate for 99% of users. Lifeline services are being cancelled because of this nonsense.

Sorry, I cannot let that stand when it's so totally inaccurate.

Every bus operator in the country has known that 'disabled-friendly' buses were to be introduced as soon as it was possible - they were given 15 years to comply !!. Any operator who did nothing about the requirement for 15 years really doesn't deserve to be operating a bus company.

Without taking this issue too far off the main thread, and in simple terms, many bus routes are being withdrawn because the funding that used to exist from the government and/or local councils has been reduced.

 

[Antman]

In my experience disabled travellers are amongst the rudest and ignorant people out there, in fact some are deliberately inconvenient. I used to travel between Stirling and Perth daily and there was a man in a wheelchair who caught the same train most days. Now the station staff pushed him from his taxi to the platform but he refused to let them push him up the ramp on to the train. He preferred to hold us all up by ten minutes every morning by insisting on walking up the ramp very slowly then collapsing into three seats at once, all the time shouting at people. My point is that it doesn't matter what they do to help disabled passengers, it's never good enough.

As somebody else said it is a bit unfair to tar everybody with the same brush but yes some disabled people are very rude and deliberately go out of their way to be as awkward as possible, sounds like a classic example that you've witnessed.

 

[speedy_sticks]

In my experience disabled travellers are amongst the rudest and ignorant people out there, in fact some are deliberately inconvenient. I used to travel between Stirling and Perth daily and there was a man in a wheelchair who caught the same train most days. Now the station staff pushed him from his taxi to the platform but he refused to let them push him up the ramp on to the train. He preferred to hold us all up by ten minutes every morning by insisting on walking up the ramp very slowly then collapsing into three seats at once, all the time shouting at people. My point is that it doesn't matter what they do to help disabled passengers, it's never good enough.

All the disability aid is just that, an aid.

The person using that aid is just like anybody else, they are PhD's, sit in the house of Lords, lazy, a careerist, wanting to go out with somebody to have some fun, etc.

All that they are wanting to do is be treated like anybody else.

But the railways don't help themselves with differing ways of helping the customer depending on franchise and station arrangements.

 

[JamesTT]

All the disability aid is just that, an aid.

The person using that aid is just like anybody else, they are PhD's, sit in the house of Lords, lazy, a careerist, wanting to go out with somebody to have some fun, etc.

All that they are wanting to do is be treated like anybody else.

But the railways don't help themselves with differing ways of helping the customer depending on franchise and station arrangements.

Isn't this where the reasonable adjustment part comes in.
Station A has no step free access but only 4 trains a day
Station B also has no step free access but has 4 trains an hour
Putting in lifts/ramps at station A might not be considered reasonable

 

[Philip Phlopp]

No I am not. It's the same with buses, there are routes nationwide that have been axed because operators cannot justify buying new low floor buses to replace perhaps the elderly minibus that was adequate for 99% of users. Lifeline services are being cancelled because of this nonsense.

That needs evidence to support.

I'd guess there's a route or two operated by an old Leyland Olympian still mysteriously avoiding the scrapyard or preservation, but Volvo and Scania had their first low floor chassis available in 1993, Dennis had the Dart SLF in 1995 and Optare introduced the Solo in 1998.

There's no shortage of cheap low floor buses around - £2,000 gets a 20 year old midi bus and £5,000 gets a 15 year old with DDA compliance, so if anybody is running non low floor stock on a route and can't afford to replace it with a DDA compliant bus, they're cowboys.

 

[speedy_sticks]

Isn't this where the reasonable adjustment part comes in.
Station A has no step free access but only 4 trains a day
Station B also has no step free access but has 4 trains an hour
Putting in lifts/ramps at station A might not be considered reasonable

Please explain how that is the same as a human being a guard doing platform duties at every stop can't be doing same platform duties at every stop under OBS?

I am pretty sure that doesn't involve any change in infrastructure!?

I am talking of cases like at Euston where Virgin West Coast prefer Euston station sraff to get you off the train (where you spend ages waiting for), then you have London Midland using the same station where if the station staff don't meet the train, the guard gets you off using their ok board ramp immediately, or SWT where their information button on their help point goes to theIr UK call centre but others go to off shore call centres etc. It's the simple things that need improving!

 

[JamesTT]

But the railways don't help themselves with differing ways of helping the customer depending on franchise and station arrangements.

This does not appear to just apply to whether trains have guards though

 

[HH]

On Friday, Unite trade union leader Len McCluskey suggested in an interview with the Guardian that the security services could be behind the abuse and intimidation of MPs on social media.

Mr McCluskey said MI5 could be using "dark practices" to "stir up trouble" for Mr Corbyn, arguing that spies had infiltrated trade unions in the past, and that the truth about it had been suppressed for 30 years under the rule on keeping classified documents out of the public domain.

Could this also explain the crappy RMT press releases?

 

[JamesTT]

I have a plan regards the legality of DOO extension and disabled passengers.
Why doesn't someone set up a crowd funding page to raise money to consult a human rights lawyer on the matter. Considering how much Southern are despised I expect there would be a fair few donations

 

[speedy_sticks]

I have a plan regards the legality of DOO extension and disabled passengers.
Why doesn't someone set up a crowd funding page to raise money to consult a human rights lawyer on the matter. Considering how much Southern are despised I expect there would be a fair few donations

It's in hand, the timing of it us less certain though!

 

[ComUtoR]

Pull the cord.

Ours are in the roof. How does a wheelchair passenger reach the cord ?

 

[Flamingo]

Ours are in the roof. How does a wheelchair passenger reach the cord ?

With great difficulty...

I'll get my coat

 

[AlterEgo]

Could this also explain the crappy RMT press releases?

 

[HowardGWR]

That needs evidence to support.

I'd guess there's a route or two operated by an old Leyland Olympian still mysteriously avoiding the scrapyard or preservation, but Volvo and Scania had their first low floor chassis available in 1993, Dennis had the Dart SLF in 1995 and Optare introduced the Solo in 1998.

There's no shortage of cheap low floor buses around - £2,000 gets a 20 year old midi bus and £5,000 gets a 15 year old with DDA compliance, so if anybody is running non low floor stock on a route and can't afford to replace it with a DDA compliant bus, they're cowboys.

Blimey Philip - you are an expert on buses as well? How are you on bike stands (no don't answer that or we'll get the bikers on and they go on for ever! ).

 

[infobleep]

You'd be waiting for the taxi then - which is standard practice, and not contrary to the Equality Act *as far as I'm aware*.

Does the equalities act allow one to make a service for disabled peoole worse?

I'm not talking about whether doing so benefits more non disabled people, just whether the law allows it to happen?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[AlterEgo]

Does the equalities act allow one to make a service for disabled peoole worse?

I'm not talking about whether doing so benefits more non disabled people, just whether the law allows it to happen?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

The Equality Act only requires that business make reasonable adjustments to accommodate the disabled.

"Worse" is subjective, but as long as a business can show it makes reasonable adjustments then it complies with the law.

 

[infobleep]

The Equality Act only requires that business make reasonable adjustments to accommodate the disabled.

"Worse" is subjective, but as long as a business can show it makes reasonable adjustments then it complies with the law.

But being made worse is surely an adjustment that isn't reasonable is it not? After all its an adjustment to a service. Or does the legal definition of adjustment different to my understanding of the definition?

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[Haig paxton]

But being made worse is surely an adjustment that isn't reasonable is it not? After all its an adjustment to a service. Or does the legal definition of adjustment different to my understanding of the definition?

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SPT only permit wheelchairs on their Subway trains if they are folded and only two stations have level access (lifts). Do you think it is economical for SPT to introduce lifts at all of its stations? There are times where people in wheelchairs just cannot be accommodated. Mount Everest is inaccessable for a lot of people too, it's just life.

 

[AlterEgo]

But being made worse is surely an adjustment that isn't reasonable is it not? After all its an adjustment to a service. Or does the legal definition of adjustment different to my understanding of the definition?

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I'm not sure how many more times I have to explain what the Equality Act does.

The business must demonstrate that it makes reasonable adjustments to its environment or practices to accommodate the disabled (and in fact other minorities).

A business could for example occupy a high street location, which was fully EA compliant with ramps etc. And it could in theory move, for whatever reason, to an elderly listed building where it would be impossible to make the property accessible.

Many disabled charities and organisations which support businesses have resources online which explain the Act in detail.