Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[tsr]

This will also change the way trains are dispatched from certain stations. Platform staff will no longer give a tip, instead they will "observe" the platform while the driver does all the checks.

Really? I believe that's not a valid procedure according to the Rules applicable to dispatch of Southern stock. There's no such blurring of boundaries - either platform staff are involved in the dispatch procedure - including the formal requirements involving the Station Work and Train Safety Check indications - or not at all. Obviously general vigilance is encouraged even if you're not dispatching trains, but that's different.

(There are some locations, especially LO & LM stations, where station staff are rostered to be on the platforms but have no safety obligations regarding Southern stock. They may appear to be observing but that is simply because they have no other more pressing task, not because of a rule specifying they should be present at that point.)

According to the documentation I've received, drivers will now dispatch 377s using in-cab monitors only at Dorking Platform 3, Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham, and will be dispatched by platform staff at Horsham for routes via Dorking, as they currently do there for various ECS moves on all routes.

For the additional use of DOO from Brighton/Three Bridges to London terminals, I haven't seen any guidance regarding changes to the dispatch procedures at any station. All of them had already been assessed long ago for relevant procedures for dispatch of DOO(P) trains but it was simply only allowed in severe disruption.

 

[gietek]

Really? I believe that's not a valid procedure according to the Rules applicable to dispatch of Southern stock. There's no such blurring of boundaries - either platform staff are involved in the dispatch procedure - including the formal requirements involving the Station Work and Train Safety Check indications - or not at all. Obviously general vigilance is encouraged even if you're not dispatching trains, but that's different.

(There are some locations, especially LO & LM stations, where station staff are rostered to be on the platforms but have no safety obligations regarding Southern stock. They may appear to be observing but that is simply because they have no other more pressing task, not because of a rule specifying they should be present at that point.)

According to the documentation I've received, drivers will now dispatch 377s using in-cab monitors only at Dorking Platform 3, Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham, and will be dispatched by platform staff at Horsham for routes via Dorking, as they currently do there for various ECS moves on all routes.

For the additional use of DOO from Brighton/Three Bridges to London terminals, I haven't seen any guidance regarding changes to the dispatch procedures at any station. All of them had already been assessed long ago for relevant procedures for dispatch of DOO(P) trains but it was simply only allowed in severe disruption.

Can't really comment on that one. I've seen no documentation, only talked to one platform assistant. Perhaps there is some usual drama involved.

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[JamesTT]

Really? I believe that's not a valid procedure according to the Rules applicable to dispatch of Southern stock. There's no such blurring of boundaries - either platform staff are involved in the dispatch procedure - including the formal requirements involving the Station Work and Train Safety Check indications - or not at all.

According to the documentation I've received, drivers will now dispatch 377s using in-cab monitors only at Dorking Platform 3, Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham, and will be dispatched by platform staff at Horsham for routes via Dorking, as they currently do there for various ECS moves on all routes.

For the additional use of DOO from Brighton/Three Bridges to London terminals, I haven't seen any guidance regarding changes to the dispatch procedures at any station. All of them had already been assessed long ago for DOO dispatch but it was simply only allowed in severe disruption.

I agree from what I have heard; Brighton, Haywards Heath, Three Bridges, Gatwick, Redhill, Purley, East Croydon, Clapham Junction etc etc have not had their dispatch/despatch plans changed. Staff will continue to dispatch/despatch DOO services as they always have done.(FOR NOW)

There was talk of platform staff observing whilst 700 trains were despatched but at present staff despatch these trains an locations 319, 377 and 387 TL services are dispatched by platform staff.

DESPATCH/DISPATCH which is it?

 

[tsr]

Can't really comment on that one. I've seen no documentation, only talked to one platform assistant. Perhaps there is some usual drama involved.

Lots of rumours flying around. A lot of the time, the implementation of what's going around in the rumours would require changes at a very high level which have, as far as I can see, not yet been documented. One member of platform staff is quite unlikely to have the full picture at the moment.

I agree from what I have heard; Brighton, Haywards Heath, Three Bridges, Gatwick, Redhill, Purley, East Croydon, Clapham Junction etc etc have not had their dispatch/despatch plans changed. Staff will continue to dispatch/despatch DOO services as they always have done.(FOR NOW)

Quite. I'd also suggest that "for now" would sensibly equate to "indefinitely, until a formal notice suggests otherwise". Not to say changes won't occur, but as I said above, there's a huge number of rumours flying around which could be very misleading.

There was talk of platform staff observing whilst 700 trains were despatched but at present staff despatch these trains an locations 319, 377 and 387 TL services are dispatched by platform staff.

Again, many rumours there. The most substantial one that I've heard is that platform staff could be redistributed at certain locations, with the driver using the cameras plus platform staff positioned in more optimal locations outside of their view, in order to deal with late runners and others who may start to infringe on the dispatch corridor. This could theoretically change the numbers of those strictly needed for dispatch, varying up and down per location. Again, just a rumour.

In fact, newer stock on Thameslink over the last year or two has resulted in enhanced use of platform staff for dispatch, due to signal visibility amongst other issues.

DESPATCH/DISPATCH which is it?

The first few entries from a quick bit of Googling suggest there is no difference. I'm inclined to agree.

 

[HowardGWR]

DESPATCH/DISPATCH which is it?

Dispatch.

 

[LowLevel]

We already have basically what they're on about with platform staff but with guards. The platform staff no longer dispatch the trains but are meant to be present doing 'platform management' IE they still get delay minutes and are meant to arrange cycles, luggage etc in the right place and 'hustle' passengers with whistles. The guard takes full responsibility for dispatching the train but the platform staff still watch it out. Platform staff now only dispatch our smaller services at major stations, slam door and full length power door (8 car plus) get dispatched everywhere possible. There's always suggestion of going to guard only dispatch at more locations (Stoke and Crewe were most recent possibilities but seem to be on the back burner for a variety of reasons) but with platform staff still meant to be present.

 

[Sprinter153]

I'm guessing this means DOO services can now stop at Earlswood and Salfords?

 

[tsr]

I'm guessing this means DOO services can now stop at Earlswood and Salfords?

Southern services [formed of 377s] technically could already do that during severe disruption anyway.

It was just very rare (and rightly so - those stations both have "interesting" access issues, for starters).

Various botched/abandoned/half-finished/old platform CCTV monitors and mirrors have been in place for ages on some platforms of the smaller stations between Gatwick Airport and Purley, too. I've not heard of any plans to use these - and they would now not be applicable for most current stock on the route anyway.

 

[pompeyfan]

Not entirely true, SWT's already operate DOO trains, these are ECS moves without a guard. DOO (P) is completely different entirely and as far as I know there had been no provision made for nor is there any agreement about drivers operating the doors. ALSEF would have a good case to refuse DOO (P) on the south western division if it was ever forced on us.

I know some depot shunts are DOO, but I was told not so long ago by a depot manager that DOO-P is written in to and agreed with ASLEF on SWT, obviously there is conflicting information but I'm only relaying information passed on to me by SMT.

 

[infobleep]

Southern services [formed of 377s] technically could already do that during severe disruption anyway.

It was just very rare (and rightly so - those stations both have "interesting" access issues, for starters).

Various botched/abandoned/half-finished/old platform CCTV monitors and mirrors have been in place for ages on some platforms of the smaller stations between Gatwick Airport and Purley, too. I've not heard of any plans to use these - and they would now not be applicable for most current stock on the route anyway.

If they have interesting access issues, are they going to resolve them now or do they no longer care? I don't know what the access issues are as I've not alighted at either station?

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[pompeyfan]

Judging by the public reaction to southern latest PR stunt it would seem that a very high percentage of the public are backing guards on trains.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Judging by the public reaction to southern latest PR stunt it would seem that a very high percentage of the public are backing guards on trains.

Not sure they are backing guards but they are certainly not backing Southern nor impressed with the PR

 

[Monty]

I know some depot shunts are DOO, but I was told not so long ago by a depot manager that DOO-P is written in to and agreed with ASLEF on SWT, obviously there is conflicting information but I'm only relaying information passed on to me by SMT.

There are many ECS moves that run without guard and not just depot shunts. I wouldn't believe everything you are told. As it stands there is no agreement for drivers to run trains in passenger service and/or operate the doors.

 

[pompeyfan]

There are many ECS moves that run without guard and not just depot shunts. I wouldn't believe everything you are told. As it stands there is no agreement for drivers to run trains in passenger service and/or operate the doors.

Okay, thanks for clarifying.

 

[AndyPJG]

BBC News

Southern conductors offered £2,000 to end rail strikes
The operator of the Southern rail network has offered conductors a lump sum of £2,000 in a bid to bring industrial action to an end.
Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) has set the RMT union a deadline of midday on Thursday to agree to end strikes.
It said conductors would also be asked to sign up to new on-board roles as part of an eight-point offer.
Months of industrial action by the RMT and high levels of staff sickness have hit Southern services.
The settlement offer comes after a Southern rail "tweet RMT plea" angered rail passengers
Last month the RMT said workers would stage 14 days of strike action in the long-running dispute over the role of conductors on trains.

 

[PakRail]

So GTR have written a final letter to the RMT giving a deadline of 6th October to accept all conductors are to become OBS under their 8 point offer otherwise the offer will be retracted. They have asked the RMT to let the affected staff vote on whether the offer should be accepted or not.

They have also offered a lump sum of £2000 to those conductors who accept the new role but if they accept the offer and go on strike then this will be "clawed back".

GTR I have noticed, have also set out a full page spread in the Metro this morning to ask customers to message the RMT asking them to call off their strikes in a bid win public support.

In my opinion

GTR will start with the shorter routes by taking off the conductors. Dorking to Horsham could be the first to go and then work towards the longer coastal routes. At the moment the West London lines will keep their conductors as Selhurst depot is unaffected but in the future of course this will change.

Once Govia has extended DOO(p) on the Southern brand they will then move onto targeting London Midlands franchise and to state the obvious all other TOCs that have guards will also start to join the bandwagon.

 

[talltim]

How not to do corporate social media
https://twitter.com/SouthernRailUK/status/782827298642857984?lang=en-gb

 

[ah-media]

Given that Southern have effectively pressed the nuclear button and we are now 72 hours away from their deadline does this matter? Are we now seeing an end game where the RMT cannot win?

Having read the letter on another website, I see that GTR make "no assurances" that any (for that, read "all") of the pre-conditions will be retained.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Well I woant be tweeting the RMT

I woant be happy if they go for this really rubbish sounding deal

I will only be happy when this nonsense results in trains having guards for the safety and wellbeing of the traveling public and those on the working railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Judging by the public reaction to southern latest PR stunt it would seem that a very high percentage of the public are backing guards on trains.

Agreed!

 

[swt class 450]

Why is Dorking to Horsham now going DOO? I remember previously Southern had said that this is one of the few routes that will continue to have Guards! So i presume that 377s will use their cameras but what will happen at Holmwood / Ockley / Warnham when 455s are used?

 

[gietek]

Why is Dorking to Horsham now going DOO? I remember previously Southern had said that this is one of the few routes that will continue to have Guards! So i presume that 377s will use their cameras but what will happen at Holmwood / Ockley / Warnham when 455s are used?

Conductors will still be on 455s.

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[Astradyne]

Given that Southern have effectively pressed the nuclear button and we are now 72 hours away from their deadline does this matter? Are we now seeing an end game where the RMT cannot win?

Having read the letter on another website, I see that GTR make "no assurances" that any (for that, read "all") of the pre-conditions will be retained.

I can't see how the RMT can manoeuvre here. Accept what you have been fighting against or we go straight to where we would like to get to ... full DOO.

Southern have been backed into a corner where they have to do something to attempt to stop further customer disruption, a restore a little credibility. They have chosen the nuclear option ... why the RMT negotiators failed to see this move coming months ago amazes me ... so it is now either accept ... or dole queue.

 

[Fincra5]

Given that Southern have effectively pressed the nuclear button and we are now 72 hours away from their deadline does this matter? Are we now seeing an end game where the RMT cannot win?

Having read the letter on another website, I see that GTR make "no assurances" that any (for that, read "all") of the pre-conditions will be retained.

72hrs is not enough time to give the RMT members its vote on the subject.

So it was all a load of codswallop from the offset.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I can't see how the RMT can manoeuvre here. Accept what you have been fighting against or we go straight to where we would like to get to ... full DOO.

Southern have been backed into a corner where they have to do something to attempt to stop further customer disruption, a restore a little credibility. They have chosen the nuclear option ... why the RMT negotiators failed to see this move coming months ago amazes me ... so it is now either accept ... or dole queue.

Sorry if I have missed something in this 392-page thread but is there already something in place, by which I mean contractually rather than future persuasive pay rises, that can or will oblige the drivers to work DOO?

 

[Astradyne]

Sorry if I have missed something in this 392-page thread but is there already something in place, by which I mean contractually rather than future persuasive pay rises, that can or will oblige the drivers to work DOO?

With guards gone ... they can make the drivers a very attractive offer to accept.

Either that or it has probably been a clause in the drivers contracts for a while ... so any hired over past few years probably have already agreed

 

[swt class 450]

Conductors will still be on 455s.

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Ah ok. At least some trains will still have Guards then. What is happening with the Leatherhead to Guildford trains? Will they be getting rid of Guards on the 377s and keeping them on the 455s on that route as well?

I presume the South Croydon to Milton Keynes Central trains will also become DOO as it is worked entitely by 377s?

Also i would be very interested to know what is happening with the Redhill to Tonbridge line? Most of these trains are worked by Southeastern Drivers and Guards but all trains are 377s. Will these be going DOO as well?

 

[ah-media]

72hrs is not enough time to give the RMT members its vote on the subject.

Whilst this is correct, this was not the condition laid down by GTR.

The RMT had to agree to a vote, not carry it out.

 

[tsr]

Ah ok. At least some trains will still have Guards then. What is happening with the Leatherhead to Guildford trains? Will they be getting rid of Guards on the 377s and keeping them on the 455s on that route as well?

Various test trains have been running recently on a number of routes, including some running overnight calling at all stations from Leatherhead to Guildford. I've not heard comment on the exact nature of the tests, but I'd be surprised if these runs did not include any tests to check whether 377s can run DOO down there.

I've not heard anything definite, but I would not be surprised if they did run DOO at some point on that route. I have heard it will take rather longer, due to various operational and political vagaries - as this is really a Wessex route and mainly served by SWT. However, there are very, very few 377s operating down there anyway.

What has to be remembered is that Selhurst - which is the only depot without any conductors currently transferring to OBS roles - is the only Southern one which currently signs Leatherhead-Guildford and therefore it would not be so hard to keep conductors on this route, provided route knowledge could be retained via the tiny number of diagrams.

There is no DOO equipment so any trains formed of 455s (currently at least 3 or 4 return trips a day) would need conductors for the time being. As it is a route which is quite out of the way, with a long time for a round trip, often it seems only 1x 455 can be diagrammed (also relevant if the driver has to change ends at certain locations in order to get back to Stewarts Lane). If 377s gradually get found for these diagrams and do take over, obviously any DOO which does come into play could be extended.

I presume the South Croydon to Milton Keynes Central trains will also become DOO as it is worked entitely by 377s?

WLL trains are already DOO between Clapham Junction and the Croydon/Purley area (as applicable per time of day). Do be aware most only run as far South as East Croydon now, though.

Not all WLL workings are 377s - there are some 455s operating as far as Shepherds Bush at the moment, which would still need conductors between Clapham Jn and Shepherds Bush.

I've certainly not heard of any plans for DOO working between Clapham Junction and Milton Keynes Ctl anyway.

Also i would be very interested to know what is happening with the Redhill to Tonbridge line? Most of these trains are worked by Southeastern Drivers and Guards but all trains are 377s. Will these be going DOO as well?

Any services worked by Southeastern drivers will need a Southern or Southeastern conductor for their whole journey. I believe those trains which are worked by Southern drivers will not need a conductor, as and when the line is cleared for DOO. Southern conductor depots working this line are currently subject to change.

 

[Wookiee]

There are many ECS moves that run without guard and not just depot shunts. I wouldn't believe everything you are told. As it stands there is no agreement for drivers to run trains in passenger service and/or operate the doors.

My SOU-ECR this morning seemed to be without a conductor from Three Bridges on - all on-train announcements from there on were made by the driver, judging by the audibility of horn and AWS noises. I hadn't heard about the DOO changes until I caught up with this thread just now, but I noticed that something was different.

 

[BestWestern]

So we've now 'migrated' (to use a favourite GTR term) from bullying and intimidation, to outright bribery. A month and a half's salary in return for your job; it is notable that the bullies seem to be equally as stuck for options now as the union.

Can we presume that this latest tactic is proof that GTR have not managed to dodge their obligations to ultimately go through the proper process of redundancy for those who do not wish to accept their Micky Mouse plastic job offer? This still appears something of a grey area, but recalling the tactics deployed (unsuccessfully) during earlier strikes of attempting to inflict terminal financial hardship on their own employees, I don't imagine offering payment would have been considered had it not been utterly unavoidable.