Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Robertj21a]

Given the way the sitution has now developed into the "crisis" it is, one would have wondered why Go Ahead Group and its partners have not considered the obvious way out from their perspective and that of their shareholders.

Hand back the keys. Not just for Southern, but for London Midland, GTR and South Eastern. In the case of Southern, it is a management contract, so why damage your good name by doing the DfT's dirty work for them.

This would put the ball rather nicely back into the hands of Failing Grayling and DaFT and as there is no longer a British Railways Board to act as a firewall all of a sudden a few overpaid bureaucrats led by Peter Wilkinson (how on earth is he worth £250,000) and Grayling will have to deal with the mess they've created.

Go-Ahead can then go back to running buses. The other partners can put investment into other areas. The franchises will have to be re-tendered, but it would be very amusing if not one single bidder showed any interest.

Why would GoAhead want to 'hand back the keys' for profitable businesses ?

 

[Domh245]

Why would GoAhead want to 'hand back the keys' for profitable businesses ?

Because their reputation is taking a pretty big hit with southern and I'm sure they don't want to end up as the next Connex - even if there is some sort of future preference from the DfT on their future franchise bids.

I don't see why they should hand back London Midland or Southeastern though. They seem to be plodding along fine and not generating massive amounts of bad publicity with their name featured in it.

 

[Robertj21a]

Because their reputation is taking a pretty big hit with southern and I'm sure they don't want to end up as the next Connex - even if there is some sort of future preference from the DfT on their future franchise bids.

I don't see why they should hand back London Midland or Southeastern though. They seem to be plodding along fine and not generating massive amounts of bad publicity with their name featured in it.

I'm not convinced that many people (other than enthusiasts) will necessarily associate Southern/GTR as also being the same GoAhead - as in buses in Newcastle/Oxford/London etc. In any event, it's a storm that a major company should be able to weather.

 

[Carlisle]

Because their reputation is taking a pretty big hit with southern and I'm sure they don't want to end up as the next Connex - .

Why would they become the next Connex, they were fired mostly for financial irregularities not having to stand up to the unions

 

[Fincra5]

Why would they become the next Connex, they were fired mostly for financial irregularities not having to stand up to the unions

"Stand up to the unions" Oh my dear!

 

[infobleep]

I don't really get this argument.

At the moment, with guards:

- if the guard is present, a disabled person can receive assistance boarding the train.
- if the guard is not present, the train does not operate and the disabled person is left on the platform waiting.

With the new OBS role:

- if the OBS is present, a disabled person can receive assistance boarding the train.
- if the OBS is not present, the disabled person may be left on the platform waiting. Whilst this is clearly unacceptable, this does not actually appear to be a worse position in absolute terms than the position with guards, where a staff absence would have caused the disabled person to have to wait anyway.

The disabled person assistance argument would be very valid if/when a proposal is made to scrap the OBS role, but that has not been announced (indeed there is a five year guarantee in place).

Lots of people appear to have conflated the move to DOO as involving single-manning. That is not the proposal at all.

I think people are remembering what happened on Gatwick Express with the OBSs. They got the chop. They did recently bring them back but people don't trust them. It might take a long time to build up that trust, if they ever can. Longer than 5 years even.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

 

[Carlisle]

"Stand up to the unions" Oh my dear!

Well it's pretty clear that what govt are using them for

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Passengers don't want nobody to be on the train. A lot of passengers who talk to me about what is happening with DOO and whether it will come to our network are actually quite worried about the prospect of boarding a late night train and nobody being on.
Drivers are terrified of the prospect of DOO and nobody being on. Especially the late night vomit comets on a Friday and Saturday. The problems that can occur on these trains is frightening. Fights, rows, people falling down the gap because they are so drunk. You have got to work these trains to fully understand the problems. As a passenger you don't see what it going on other than around you at the time.
It is this what is driving the ASLEF strike. There is no love lost between the RMT and ASLEF. this strike is borne out of genuine concern.

Personally I don't think the TOC's want trains with no guard or OBS or whatever they are either. I think the whole idea of trains running around with just a driver is a white elephant. The Northern franchise stipulated that although the aim is 50% DOO by the end of the franchise, they wanted at least two staff members to be onboard.

 

[Robertj21a]

Passengers don't want nobody to be on the train. A lot of passengers who talk to me about what is happening with DOO and whether it will come to our network are actually quite worried about the prospect of boarding a late night train and nobody being on.
Drivers are terrified of the prospect of DOO and nobody being on. Especially the late night vomit comets on a Friday and Saturday. The problems that can occur on these trains is frightening. Fights, rows, people falling down the gap because they are so drunk. You have got to work these trains to fully understand the problems. As a passenger you don't see what it going on other than around you at the time.
It is this what is driving the ASLEF strike. There is no love lost between the RMT and ASLEF. this strike is borne out of genuine concern.

Personally I don't think the TOC's want trains with no guard or OBS or whatever they are either. I think the whole idea of trains running around with just a driver is a white elephant. The Northern franchise stipulated that although the aim is 50% DOO by the end of the franchise, they wanted at least two staff members to be onboard.

So Thameslink's 12-coach trains, that have been running DOO for many years, are now just white elephants !! Have you ever actually seen their operation ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The only thing I will say (and can say), the issue of turning round the southamptons at Fareham mainly comes round to one thing. Not enough turn around time. The Vic's to Sou's is a 2hr 40 min trip with a 10 min turnaround at Sou and about 15-17 at Vic. There gets a point where to hit Havant too late to get to Sou and get back on time. So they turn you around at Fareham and get back on track. There used to be decent time at Sou and you often went into Sou, out to the sidings and then back. Now it's all off, all on, the cleaner does a quick sweep through (if they have time) and then back out for another 2.40 run. A punter once moaned to me about the mess and lack of toilets. 'the train has just started' she said. I said, 'I'm sorry, but after going for 2.40, we had 5 mins today to turn around for the 2.40 trip back, no time to clean, or do anything'.
These short turn arounds are then made worse by the lack of staff, waiting for drivers at Three Bridges, staff at Barnham or Horsham. But the short turnarounds means you cannot get any delay caused by, lack of staff, congestion at East Croydon/Victoria/Gatwick, naff track, iffy signals, poor capacity of the line from Fareham to St Denny's, smoothed out. So we turn around early at Fareham.

Slightly off-topic, but can I just say how good it is to see Sarah still posting helpful comments on the forum. It can't be an easy time for her, or her colleagues, and it does her credit to see her still on here, clarifying various issues as and when she can.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Well look at this, they managed to run an eight car DOO test train by the look of it. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O55349/2016/12/13/advanced

 

[BestWestern]

not if they are hiding in the back cab or refuse to move through thewhole length of the train becasue they will only operate the doors from a particualr set of controls

???

And a policeman is crap if he hides in his police car all day, and a politician is crap if he never bothers to come to parliament, and a waiter is crap if he never comes to your table...

What a stupid, childish and utterly pointless waste of thread space.

 

[Carlisle]

???

And a policeman is crap if he hides in his police car all day, and a politician is crap if he never bothers to come to parliament, and a waiter is crap if he never comes to your table...

What a stupid, childish and utterly pointless waste of thread space.

None of those professions are refusing to accept change of virtually any kind in the manner the conductors/ drivers have been for tha last few years depending on what dispute we're referring to

 

[plymothian]

not if they are hiding in the back cab or refuse to move through thewhole length of the train becasue they will only operate the doors from a particualr set of controls

Because
1. The stock is only built and laid out to be able to operate the doors from a particular door panel?
2. The local dispatch method states that it must be done from there?
3. TOCs discourage guards from jumping units on non-gangway stock and they must stay in the rear-most unit - which was (still technically is?) a rulebook instruction?

 

[Carlisle]

Because
1. The stock is only built and laid out to be able to operate the doors from a particular door panel?
2. The local dispatch method states that it must be done from there?
3. TOCs discourage guards from jumping units on non-gangway stock and they must stay in the rear-most unit - which was (still technically is?) a rulebook instruction?

Exacly, you explain perfectly some of the longstanding reasons why DFT etc have at least been attempting to initiate changes in the role of conductors

 

[BestWestern]

Exacly, you explain perfectly some of the longstanding reasons why DFT etc have at least been attempting to initiate changes in the role of conductors

Not really. There is just the one reason, to save money. That's all.

 

[Fincra5]

Exacly, you explain perfectly some of the longstanding reasons why DFT etc have at least been attempting to initiate changes in the role of conductors

They could modify the working on the train. They seem more than happy to amend the rulebook...

They could also retrofit trains with different guard panels. As Northern Did with the 319s.

But it all comes down to cost.. who's gonna pay for it?

 

[Carlisle]

They could modify the working on the train. They seem more than happy to amend the rulebook...

They could also retrofit trains with different guard panels. As Northern Did with the 319s.

But it all comes down to cost.. who's gonna pay for it?

True but clearly the DFT etc want to move on to what iit seen as the next level of operating technology, i.e. Javelin Mode ,or Thameslink

 

[NSEFAN]

None of those professions are refusing to accept change of virtually any kind in the manner the conductors/ drivers have been for tha last few years depending on what dispute we're referring to

Oh I don't know, plenty of politicians seem to think the country should be run how it was when they were children.

If we could actually automate our politicians and make them redundant, I'm sure they'd be first to complain about it!

 

[PakRail]

Passengers don't want nobody to be on the train. A lot of passengers who talk to me about what is happening with DOO and whether it will come to our network are actually quite worried about the prospect of boarding a late night train and nobody being on.
Drivers are terrified of the prospect of DOO and nobody being on. Especially the late night vomit comets on a Friday and Saturday. The problems that can occur on these trains is frightening. Fights, rows, people falling down the gap because they are so drunk. You have got to work these trains to fully understand the problems. As a passenger you don't see what it going on other than around you at the time.
It is this what is driving the ASLEF strike. There is no love lost between the RMT and ASLEF. this strike is borne out of genuine concern.

Personally I don't think the TOC's want trains with no guard or OBS or whatever they are either. I think the whole idea of trains running around with just a driver is a white elephant. The Northern franchise stipulated that although the aim is 50% DOO by the end of the franchise, they wanted at least two staff members to be onboard.

DOO trains are with regret not white elephants as they are already running on Thameslink as mentioned earlier as well as LOROL services being all DOO.

I would just like to share some incidents of the Guard being helpful from the RMT as food for thought:

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/merseyrail-guard-faces-down-sex-attacker/

Also I would like to share an article about the knife attack recently on a LOROL service as it headed into Forest Hill in which a man has been critically wounded:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38290932

According to the article the man was ranting and raving as well as chasing passengers around the station for 10-15mins armed with a knife. If there was a Guard on board I am not saying he could stop this maniac by apprehending him, however he would have been at least able to alert the driver and also get police presence much sooner to arrive at Forest Hill.

That is my opinion. Feel free to agree to disagree.

 

[AlterEgo]

According to the article the man was ranting and raving as well as chasing passengers around the station for 10-15mins armed with a knife. If there was a Guard on board I am not saying he could stop this maniac by apprehending him, however he would have been at least able to alert the driver and also get police presence much sooner to arrive at Forest Hill.

Are you saying they'd be able to alert the driver sooner than the passengers who immediately pulled the passenger alarm?

 

[Astradyne]

DOO trains are with regret not white elephants as they are already running on Thameslink as mentioned earlier as well as LOROL services being all DOO.

I would just like to share some incidents of the Guard being helpful from the RMT as food for thought:

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/merseyrail-guard-faces-down-sex-attacker/

Also I would like to share an article about the knife attack recently on a LOROL service as it headed into Forest Hill in which a man has been critically wounded:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38290932

According to the article the man was ranting and raving as well as chasing passengers around the station for 10-15mins armed with a knife. If there was a Guard on board I am not saying he could stop this maniac by apprehending him, however he would have been at least able to alert the driver and also get police presence much sooner to arrive at Forest Hill.

That is my opinion. Feel free to agree to disagree.

So is the driver incapable of identifying a crazed knife attacker on a platform as they approach or is this a special skill only taught to guards and not drivers.

Personally I would expect the driver to be aware of the incident before the guard

As for calling the police ... you really don't hold up much hope for passengers if someone has been running around on a platform for 10-15 minutes if none of them had already called the police. But suppose this does not fit with the superman guard role the public would perish without.

Additionally Forest Hill is a TfL managed station so would have been manned ... and virtually all, if not all services stopping there are already DDO

As for the first example ... protecting someone after they have been attacked and robbed .... seems the protection is a little late to me ... now if they had stopped them being attacked and robbed... that might be a valid case. Just appears to be a bit of RMT propaganda. Aaawww the guard looked after someone after they were attacked ... ok a bit of comfort... but essential?

 

[highdyke]

Well it is propaganda, a security guard would do just as well. But I guess they are cheaper, and that would never do.

Meanwhile the RMT says they are going to break the law if striking is banned.

http://talkradio.co.uk/news/souther...-railway-strike-action-well-break-it-says-rmt

Not sure how that would work because unless it's official industrial action you can be sued by any party affected. Imagine the bill for Southern?

 

[infobleep]

Well it is propaganda, a security guard would do just as well. But I guess they are cheaper, and that would never do.

Meanwhile the RMT says they are going to break the law if striking is banned.

http://talkradio.co.uk/news/souther...-railway-strike-action-well-break-it-says-rmt

Not sure how that would work because unless it's official industrial action you can be sued by any party affected. Imagine the bill for Southern?

I am wondering what the bill is for Southern's recent failed attempt to stop the drivers striking. No things been publicly stated but for some reason it seems from be known what the bill was for. ASLEF when they failed in court.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[AlterEgo]

Aaawww the guard looked after someone after they were attacked ... ok a bit of comfort... but essential?

Well, we don't know the circumstances of the incident. Noticeably, the BTP have not appealed for witnesses, nor is there a record of it happening anywhere on social media or the local news that I can find - anyone know more about it?

One thing's for sure though, the guard certainly didn't prevent that assault from happening.

 

[DT611]

Well it is propaganda, a security guard would do just as well. But I guess they are cheaper, and that would never do.

It isn't propaganda. It's reality. A security guard would be no replacement for a guard. Not only will they not have all the training a guard would have, but it is unreasonable to expect a security guard to be paid little to deal with hundreds of passengers aboard a train. No i'm afraid the guard is the only solution

Meanwhile the RMT says they are going to break the law if striking is banned.

If being able to withdraw one's labour is made illegal then that has to be stood up against.

Not sure how that would work because unless it's official industrial action you can be sued by any party affected. Imagine the bill for Southern?

Could the unions declare poverty, just refund the members their subs and even if the other party wins, the unions will have nothing to give.

 

[AlterEgo]

If being able to withdraw one's labour is made illegal then that has to be stood up against.

It is illegal for very many employees, for example the police and Armed Forces. They provide "essential services". Is the railway essential?

FWIW I do not agree that railway strikes should be made illegal - far from it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is illegal for very many employees, for example the police and Armed Forces. They provide "essential services". Is the railway essential?

Really only the police fall into this category, and they negotiated their right to strike away in exchange for binding arbitration which gave them a big pay rise following the 1918 and 1919 police strikes. The fire service, ambulance and medical staff don't, and they're far more essential than bobbies.

 

[BestWestern]

Really only the police fall into this category, and they negotiated their right to strike away in exchange for binding arbitration which gave them a big pay rise following the 1918 and 1919 police strikes. The fire service, ambulance and medical staff don't, and they're far more essential than bobbies.

And there we have, in a nutshell, the problem. Right there. They agreed never to strike. They got something in return. And now, years down the line, they're paying them an insulting, pathetic wage. £18k starting, is it? By the values of some of our beloved contributers here, that seemingly is fine. Just how it is. They're just workers, after all, why should they expect a decent wage? And what chance in hell have they of ever getting one now?!

Strikes eh, shameful. Now then, I wonder if somebody would like to discuss whether police officers are 'working class' etc etc.... :roll:

 

[Llanigraham]

And there we have, in a nutshell, the problem. Right there. They agreed never to strike. They got something in return. And now, years down the line, they're paying them an insulting, pathetic wage. £18k starting, is it? By the values of some of our beloved contributers here, that seemingly is fine. Just how it is. They're just workers, after all, why should they expect a decent wage? And what chance in hell have they of ever getting one now?!

Strikes eh, shameful. Now then, I wonder if somebody would like to discuss whether police officers are 'working class' etc etc.... :roll:

By his recent "pronouncements", they would be!

If the Government want to ban strikes, the answer is quite simple, all employees involved work exactly to the Rule Book. The signallers in my Box worked out that we could stop the job very quickly, or cause massive delays.

 

[OuterDistant]

It is illegal for very many employees, for example the police and Armed Forces. They provide "essential services". Is the railway essential?

If the railway was essential, it wouldn't have been privatised.