Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Robertj21a]

So what's happening day to day now? Are Aslef and Southern reps still meeting daily to thrash something out?

I understand those meetings are still continuing today.

 

[wfrank]

DOO. Benefiting millions of passengers since it gradually expanded on Southern since last year. Trains running now & more especially in the future that would have been cancelled because an unecessary staff member had not turned up.

The three anti DOO posters here who always say the same thing,usually in quick succession,have misunderstood xdm. He/she refers above to trains able to run now without a second person. Trains which would have been cancelled before DOO,if the guard was ill or late. Obviously trains are still being cancelled on Southern because, understandably, drivers don't want to do overtime,also because of Network Rail's daily crippling problems & because of other issues. It remains the fact that trains are running which would have been cancelled if RMT had had their way. In the long term, the "future" referred to by xdm, whether Southern is run by the government,another company or TFL, trains will continue to be DOO. After all,the last big expansion of DOO was under TfL on the London Overground & all other TfL services are DOO. The words, guard,conductor or OBS, do not exist at TfL railways. So, long term far fewer southern trains will be cancelled. XDM is right. Fortunately I am far away from Southern & its tensions but we will have them soon in Yorkshire. Having read this forum from start to finish & discussed it with drivers & others I think DOO is safe,slightly lower cost &, as above shows,more reliable & will benefit the passengers & the railway. What is not to like if you are a passenger? I hope ASLEF & Southern settle soon but these record length talks seems bad news. Also for the predictions I made a few days ago.

 

[BestWestern]

The three anti DOO posters here who always say the same thing,usually in quick succession,have misunderstood xdm. He/she refers above to trains able to run now without a second person. Trains which would have been cancelled before DOO,if the guard was ill or late. Obviously trains are still being cancelled on Southern because, understandably, drivers don't want to do overtime,also because of Network Rail's daily crippling problems & because of other issues. It remains the fact that trains are running which would have been cancelled if RMT had had their way. In the long term, the "future" referred to by xdm, whether Southern is run by the government,another company or TFL, trains will continue to be DOO. After all,the last big expansion of DOO was under TfL on the London Overground & all other TfL services are DOO. The words, guard,conductor or OBS, do not exist at TfL railways. So, long term far fewer southern trains will be cancelled. XDM is right. Fortunately I am far away from Southern & its tensions but we will have them soon in Yorkshire. Having read this forum from start to finish & discussed it with drivers & others I think DOO is safe,slightly lower cost &, as above shows,more reliable & will benefit the passengers & the railway. What is not to like if you are a passenger? I hope ASLEF & Southern settle soon but these record length talks seems bad news. Also for the predictions I made a few days ago.

You're entitled to your opinion. As people who appreciate how the railway works have pointed out many times, cancellations due to absent Guards are not in any way a significant cause of problems, and nor should they be for any operator capable of properly staffing their depots. GTR have a long history, and continue to build on it today, of Driver shortages, which was always a far bigger problem than any issue with Guards, and would appear to continue to cause mayhem today. That some feel the solution to a sloppy, incompetent employer is to sack the staff, is a poor reflection on the values held by those individuals.

As for your question of "What's not to like if you're a passenger?", are you and that other chap a double act?

 

[Deepgreen]

The three anti DOO posters here who always say the same thing,usually in quick succession,have misunderstood xdm. He/she refers above to trains able to run now without a second person. Trains which would have been cancelled before DOO,if the guard was ill or late. Obviously trains are still being cancelled on Southern because, understandably, drivers don't want to do overtime,also because of Network Rail's daily crippling problems & because of other issues. It remains the fact that trains are running which would have been cancelled if RMT had had their way. In the long term, the "future" referred to by xdm, whether Southern is run by the government,another company or TFL, trains will continue to be DOO. After all,the last big expansion of DOO was under TfL on the London Overground & all other TfL services are DOO. The words, guard,conductor or OBS, do not exist at TfL railways. So, long term far fewer southern trains will be cancelled. XDM is right. Fortunately I am far away from Southern & its tensions but we will have them soon in Yorkshire. Having read this forum from start to finish & discussed it with drivers & others I think DOO is safe,slightly lower cost &, as above shows,more reliable & will benefit the passengers & the railway. What is not to like if you are a passenger? I hope ASLEF & Southern settle soon but these record length talks seems bad news. Also for the predictions I made a few days ago.

The absence of on-train supervision, 'live' information, ticket checking and general assistance/reassurance.

 

[ar10642]

The absence of on-train supervision, 'live' information, ticket checking and general assistance/reassurance.

That's what the OBS is for, and can focus on it rather than mucking around with doors.

 

[SA_900]

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 5 characters.

 

[BestWestern]

That's what the OBS is for, and can focus on it rather than mucking around with doors.

Yes, except they aren't there, are they! Because OBS is merely part of Lying Charlie's destaffing plans. OBS wasn't much help to the wheelchair user left on the platform recently, were they? And why? Because there wasn't one.

Wake up, chap.

 

[Deepgreen]

That's what the OBS is for, and can focus on it rather than mucking around with doors.

I haven't seen a single OBS on any of the many DOO trains I've been on since the dispute started, and I have only heard them repeating the recorded messages (often badly). Their morale must be rock bottom as they know they are in a de-valued, short term role.

 

[maniacmartin]

posted in error

 

[alastair]

The absence of on-train supervision, 'live' information, ticket checking and general assistance/reassurance.

Well maybe,but I have to say in my limited experience,before the current shenanigans kicked off,Southern guards very much tended to lurk in the back cab and provide none of the above services whatever. Certainly totally different from SWT. Maybe they knew their days were numbered and had already given up?

 

[ar10642]

Yes, except they aren't there, are they! Because OBS is merely part of Lying Charlie's destaffing plans. OBS wasn't much help to the wheelchair user left on the platform recently, were they? And why? Because there wasn't one.

Wake up, chap.

I've only been on a couple of trips recently, but they were there on both of them, checking tickets and giving announcements.

So, the question is, if there are suddenly no OBSs on any services, what's happened to them if they were working trains as guards every day before? Have they been sacked and keeping very quiet about it? Have they left and not been replaced? Are they not turning up to work? Are they hiding in mess rooms? Are they hiding in cabs? Why were adverts recruiting new OBSs posted online?

As for the wheelchair user (I'm not sure which example you're referring to), presumably if no guard was available this whole train would have been cancelled. If a guard was available, why would an OBS not be? Something doesn't add up.

Even if they were all gone as you say, striking has achieved nothing, is still achieving nothing, and the current situation is the same as it is on Thameslink, GWR locals, c2c and others.

It's done, and they're not going to reverse their position now, regardless of what the RMT, ASLEF or anyone on here thinks about it. It's time to accept it and move on.

 

[TEW]

That's what the OBS is for, and can focus on it rather than mucking around with doors.

Except they have to go to the doors at every stop, put a key on, observe the platform for any passengers requiring assistance then either provide that assistance or take their key off. It's pretty much the only duty I've observed an OBS do, and it means they have no more free time than a guard would to help passengers on the train.

 

[tsr]

Yes, except they aren't there, are they! Because OBS is merely part of Lying Charlie's destaffing plans. OBS wasn't much help to the wheelchair user left on the platform recently, were they? And why? Because there wasn't one.

Wake up, chap.

Well maybe,but I have to say in my limited experience,before the current shenanigans kicked off,Southern guards very much tended to lurk in the back cab and provide none of the above services whatever. Certainly totally different from SWT. Maybe they knew their days were numbered and had already given up?

I'm sorry to say that both of you are well adrift from the exact truth of the matters here. There are OBSs out and about, in at least the same proportions as conductors were - to the best of my knowledge, there has not been any form of cull yet, of any description, against the previous conductor staffing numbers. The problem is that OBSs may not actually be on the right trains, because the train won't wait for them. So you could have 4 OBSs on one train and 3 others running around without them, because they're all using one train to chase lots of others which they should be on. However, where they do exist, they do tend to check platforms for customers needing assistance, so it's not as if nobody's doing it.

And of all the TOCs which retain some sort of onboard staff, Southern has probably been the least likely for anyone to ever have found conductors habitually hiding in back cabs, purely because working a 377 (previously the predominant stock worked by conductors) is a complete nuisance if you're in the back cab, and often impossible on longer trains due to dispatch positions. The custom and practice right up to the recent expansion of DOO was saloon dispatch except if the train was overcrowded. It remains that way on the few conductor-worked 377s.

[171s are a bit different because the cabs are easier to use, so conductors will often shuffle between them and the saloon panels depending on where they are in the train. Similar stuff applies to 313s and 442s and their guard's compartments. As for 455s, where those do have conductors, the Southern /8 variant has mandatory dispatch from the rear cab (4 car formation) or middle cabs (8 car formation).]

 

[Deepgreen]

I'm sorry to say that both of you are well adrift from the exact truth of the matters here. There are OBSs out and about, in at least the same proportions as conductors were - to the best of my knowledge, there has not been any form of cull yet, of any description, against the previous conductor staffing numbers. The problem is that OBSs may not actually be on the right trains, because the train won't wait for them. So you could have 4 OBSs on one train and 3 others running around without them, because they're all using one train to chase lots of others which they should be on. However, where they do exist, they do tend to check platforms for customers needing assistance, so it's not as if nobody's doing it.

And of all the TOCs which retain some sort of onboard staff, Southern has probably been the least likely for anyone to ever have found conductors habitually hiding in back cabs, purely because working a 377 (previously the predominant stock worked by conductors) is a complete nuisance if you're in the back cab, and often impossible on longer trains due to dispatch positions. The custom and practice right up to the recent expansion of DOO was saloon dispatch except if the train was overcrowded. It remains that way on the few conductor-worked 377s.

[171s are a bit different because the cabs are easier to use, so conductors will often shuffle between them and the saloon panels depending on where they are in the train. Similar stuff applies to 313s and 442s and their guard's compartments. As for 455s, where those do have conductors, the Southern /8 variant has mandatory dispatch from the rear cab (4 car formation) or middle cabs (8 car formation).]

Amazing - what a lack of management there must be to allow this sort of laxity to persist.

 

[Juniper Driver]

I repeat how many times in the last ten years has my train been cancelled due to unavailability of a guard and I could probably think of twice and that's it.So that old chestnut doesn't work with me.

Believe me I've had more train failures in that time or passcoms pulled or whatever.

 

[tsr]

Amazing - what a lack of management there must be to allow this sort of laxity to persist.

It's the last part of the sentence that you need to look at, really!

There are efforts being made to employ centralised controllers who try to work out plans to match displaced OBSs back to their trains, and deal with accessibility issues, but the question is why that wasn't done last summer/autumn when the revenue grades started to be switched over to the first versions of OBS roles and diagrams.

 

[alastair]

I'm sorry to say that both of you are well adrift from the exact truth of the matters here. There are OBSs out and about, in at least the same proportions as conductors were - to the best of my knowledge, there has not been any form of cull yet, of any description, against the previous conductor staffing numbers. The problem is that OBSs may not actually be on the right trains, because the train won't wait for them. So you could have 4 OBSs on one train and 3 others running around without them, because they're all using one train to chase lots of others which they should be on. However, where they do exist, they do tend to check platforms for customers needing assistance, so it's not as if nobody's doing it.

And of all the TOCs which retain some sort of onboard staff, Southern has probably been the least likely for anyone to ever have found conductors habitually hiding in back cabs, purely because working a 377 (previously the predominant stock worked by conductors) is a complete nuisance if you're in the back cab, and often impossible on longer trains due to dispatch positions. The custom and practice right up to the recent expansion of DOO was saloon dispatch except if the train was overcrowded. It remains that way on the few conductor-worked 377s.

[171s are a bit different because the cabs are easier to use, so conductors will often shuffle between them and the saloon panels depending on where they are in the train. Similar stuff applies to 313s and 442s and their guard's compartments. As for 455s, where those do have conductors, the Southern /8 variant has mandatory dispatch from the rear cab (4 car formation) or middle cabs (8 car formation).]

Thanks, that's interesting. I stand corrected; maybe they were not in the back cab but they were very much hiding somewhere, and not making live announcements, not doing tickets, providing reassurance or walking through like SWT guards almost invariably do. On the the Hastings/Ashford run, given the many unstaffed stations, it seemed particularly odd that the guard made no effort to check anyones's ticket and, when he wasnt dispatching from the rear cab, rode with the driver in the front cab!

 

[Chrisgr31]

On the 171s ticket checking was significantly reduced during the dispute however it is more common now.

A few grumpy EGR passengers last night. The 18.17 from London Bridge to East Grinstead was delayed on departure from London Bridge with a train fault and congestion given as excuses. When they get to East Croydon the driver announces there is a fault with the train and he has to reboot it. The doors close and they watch the 18.23 Victoria to East Grinstead pull in to East Croydon and leave and as the doors were closed they couldn't board it. Not sure if the 18.17 was cancelled or continued.

 

[Llanigraham]

Amazing - what a lack of management there must be to allow this sort of laxity to persist.

Well done, NOT!!
Perhaps you should have highlighted the FULL sentence and not just the few words you wanted.

The problem is that OBSs may not actually be on the right trains, because the train won't wait for them. So you could have 4 OBSs on one train and 3 others running around without them, because they're all using one train to chase lots of others which they should be on.

 

[KTHV]

On the 171s ticket checking was significantly reduced during the dispute however it is more common now.

A few grumpy EGR passengers last night. The 18.17 from London Bridge to East Grinstead was delayed on departure from London Bridge with a train fault and congestion given as excuses. When they get to East Croydon the driver announces there is a fault with the train and he has to reboot it. The doors close and they watch the 18.23 Victoria to East Grinstead pull in to East Croydon and leave and as the doors were closed they couldn't board it. Not sure if the 18.17 was cancelled or continued.

RTT shows:

2L89 1817 London Bridge to East Croydon
Southern service departing on 26th January 2017

This service was cancelled between East Croydon and East Grinstead due to a problem with the on-board safety systems (M0).

It was 8L leaving London Bridge and 11L arriving into East Croydon

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L09481/2017/01/26/advanced



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BestWestern]

On the the Hastings/Ashford run,given the many unstaffed stations,it seemed particularly odd that the guard made no effort to check anyones's ticket and,when he wasnt dispatching from the rear cab,rode with the driver in the front cab!

That's a very serious allegation. Did you personally witness the Guard enter the front cab of the train and remain there whilst it was being driven? With Twitter, Facebook, CCTV and already disgruntled commuters, I'd be very surprised to see staff taking such a risk.

 

[physics34]

That's a very serious allegation. Did you personally witness the Guard enter the front cab of the train and remain there whilst it was being driven? With Twitter, Facebook, CCTV and already disgruntled commuters, I'd be very surprised to see staff taking such a risk.

..and we dont really want this forum becoming a place to "grass" up staff on either.

 

[alastair]

That's a very serious allegation. Did you personally witness the Guard enter the front cab of the train and remain there whilst it was being driven? With Twitter, Facebook, CCTV and already disgruntled commuters, I'd be very surprised to see staff taking such a risk.

Yes,absolutely,but it was about a year ago.And only between Hastings and Rye,where I left the train. I was surprised as well!

 

[6Gman]

I think DOO is safe,slightly lower cost &, as above shows,more reliable & will benefit the passengers & the railway. What is not to like if you are a passenger?

I think most passengers would be appalled to think that if the driver is incapacitated (whether by accident or illness) there is no trained member of staff to take control of the situation.

DOO? No thanks.

 

[Robertj21a]

I think most passengers would be appalled to think that if the driver is incapacitated (whether by accident or illness) there is no trained member of staff to take control of the situation.

DOO? No thanks.

So how do you think they operate on Thameslink etc ?

 

[XDM]

I think most passengers would be appalled to think that if the driver is incapacitated (whether by accident or illness) there is no trained member of staff to take control of the situation.

DOO? No thanks.

So how do you think TfL have operated through the Chilterns to Amersham or the Essex wilds to Epping for the last 30 years. Or BR through the empty fens to Kings Lynn. In fact most places around London have been served safely by DOO trains for years. If you think Mayor Khan,who runs TfL, will reinstate guards if he were to take over Southern, sweet dreams!

 

[Mintona]

I would hazard a guess that more Southern trains have been cancelled in the first month of this year due to no driver with the overtime ban following this dispute, than have been cancelled in the last 10 years as a result of a guard not being available.

In the 5 years I've been a driver I've never had a train cancelled due to no guard being available.

So, great success guys.

 

[WatcherZero]

Today we have news that RMT will be meeting with Merseyrail next week to view their guard redeployment plans, the 26th deadline RMT set for them to backdown has passed. We also had RMT releasing a statement saying Arriva Northern had offered them a guarenteed 2nd man (though not neccesarily operating doors) and RMT say in Liverpool Echo they are quite quite happy with that offer.

Is there a potential North/South split in RMT determination to fight DOO developing?

 

[yorkie]

Thanks,that's interesting. I stand corrected,maybe they were not in the back cab but they were very much hiding somewhere,and not making live announcements,not doing tickets,providing reassurance or walking through like SWT guards almost invariably do. On the the Hastings/Ashford run,given the many unstaffed stations,it seemed particularly odd that the guard made no effort to check anyones's ticket and,when he wasnt dispatching from the rear cab,rode with the driver in the front cab!

Guards are not necessarily required to check tickets; ignoring the fact some Guards are non-commercial (I appreciate that isn't the case here) it's possible they didn't have a functioning ticket machine or they were required to do other duties.

I agree most passengers want to see someone patrolling the train. Most times I do but I very rarely see the Guard walk through late evening TPE services these we days.

But that does that mean any individual should be criticised as you don't know the reasons why. For example something may have happened to upset them earlier in the day and they may feel that they are best keeping a low profile. Or perhaps an incident occurred and staff have agreed not to check tickets on a particular working, or workings, unless the company addresses a concern.

The lack of a functioning ticket machine doesn't necessarily mean checks are not made but a vexatious complaint was made to TPE recently because a passenger was unhappy that the Guard didn't charge an excess to another passenger due to having no machine and therefore they wanted a refund!

 

[Starmill]

I did not see any evidence of an OBS on the 1259 from Horsham to Barnham yesterday, despite it being almost empty and I did have a little look. They could still have been there and just been very quiet. We also left late after dividing at Horsham, seemingly it taking much longer to despatch using the contract staff than it used to with a guard.