Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Deepgreen]

RMT have called another strike for 4 April. I look forward to my usual better-than-normal service on strike days!

BTW, we seem to be back to the days of signallers putting all-stations Southern trains, which also divide at Redhill, ahead of non-stop, non-dividing Thameslink trains at Stoats Nest, when both arrive there more or less together. Happened yet again yesterday afternoon, with the driver's repeated announcements to us showing his frustration. My regular train is now a good bet for Delay Repay as we crawl towards Redhill and then have to wait outside for the division to occur. 16 late again yesterday. The RTT data is stark - trains run almost perfectly to time north of the Thames and then fall apart once south of the river.

 

[redbutton]

Do you have any evidence to back the claim in your first sentence?

I agree that it is absolutely not ASLEF's place to negotiate the T&Cs for Guards/OBS. What they are doing is addressing the concerns of drivers, also expressed numerous times in this thread, about the presence of a second, suitably trained person to help the driver when necessary. This agreement means that ~99.9% of trains will have a second PTS-trained person on board, which they must think covers that concern.

While the detail will be expanded in Company Council and any JWP that is set up, changing the OBS T&Cs is not going to happen there.

No public evidence, just verbally from members of the negotiating team.

My hope is that RMT will actually start representing their members, recognise the OBS grade now that the jobs are secured indefinitely (which after all was RMT's only real sticking point), and secure a mandate that they receive all the training appropriate to their role.

If they do that, then the contents of this proposed agreement pertaining to minimum training would be moot.

 

[maniacmartin]

As per RMT
RMT CONFIRMS NEW STRIKE DATE ON SOUTHERN RAIL

17 March 2017
RMT Press Office:

RMT confirms new strike date on Southern Rail and says it will reconsider if a date is given for genuine talks.

RAIL UNION RMT confirmed today that guards and drivers on Southern Rail will strike again in the on-going disputes over the safety impact of the extension of Driver Only Operation and the removal of guards from services.

Members will strike for 24 hours between 0001 hours and 2359 hours on Tues 4th April 2017.‎

The announcement comes as RMT continues to press the company for a firm date for talks over the future role of the guard. The union has said that it would reconsider it's action to allow for those talks to take place.

Mick Cash, RMT General Secretary, said:
“RMT members on Southern Rail have been fighting for safety and access for nearly a year now and it is disgraceful that we have continued to be carved out of the talks process. That is a kick in the teeth for our members. This dispute needs to be pushed forwards and RMT would be prepared to reconsider our action if we get a commitment to a firm date for genuine and meaningful talks.

“ All parties should be at the negotiating table and RMT’s continued exclusion means we have no option but to press ahead with further industrial action.”

“It is now down to Southern/GTR, and the contract holders in the Government, to face up to their responsibilities and engage in genuine and serious talks that address our issues.”

Ends.

 

[PHILIPE]

Possibly at this stage GTR, with DFT pulling strings in the background, will just sit back and watch RMT members keep losing money on strike days.

 

[FordFocus]

I'm interested to know if and when ASLEF accept this deal is that it will then mean that if an OBS is unavailable due to industrial action is that the train cannot run? As this isn't sickness nor an OBS been left behind etc

 

[redstar]

Related to this, does anyone actually know whether any services ran without an OBS during the most recent RMT strike specifically due to the OBS being on strike?

Or have Southern been able to run almost a full timetable because enough OBSs reported for work and they have enough managers and other staff sufficiently trained to perform the OBS's duties?

I ask because all the services I travelled on had an OBS when they should have had, despite the RMT strike.

I'm wondering if the more limited circumstances now agreed with ASLEF will mean fewer services on RMT strike says?

On an entirely different note, earlier in the week I saw an exceptionally helpful OBS, walking though the train before it split, checking people were in the correct part, and even helping one gentleman with their luggage when they needed to move. I just thought I'd post that to balance the reports from others who (like me) often don't see the OBS/guard at all.

 

[HH]

I'm interested to know if and when ASLEF accept this deal is that it will then mean that if an OBS is unavailable due to industrial action is that the train cannot run? As this isn't sickness nor an OBS been left behind etc

That would seem to be what should happen. A good deal for the drivers as they will get paid for doing nothing.

There's a seemingly ridiculous situation that the GTR "Southern" drivers will have to have a second person on board, even while running DCO, while the GTR "Thameslink & GN" drivers won't. It could only happen on the railway.

 

[HH]

No public evidence, just verbally from members of the negotiating team.

My hope is that RMT will actually start representing their members, recognise the OBS grade now that the jobs are secured indefinitely (which after all was RMT's only real sticking point), and secure a mandate that they receive all the training appropriate to their role.

If they do that, then the contents of this proposed agreement pertaining to minimum training would be moot.

Given how far GTR have moved maybe they'll get it, but it will be really hard for Wilko to present this as a success if GTR move much further.

 

[Robertj21a]

Related to this, does anyone actually know whether any services ran without an OBS during the most recent RMT strike specifically due to the OBS being on strike?

Or have Southern been able to run almost a full timetable because enough OBSs reported for work and they have enough managers and other staff sufficiently trained to perform the OBS's duties?

I ask because all the services I travelled on had an OBS when they should have had, despite the RMT strike.

I'm wondering if the more limited circumstances now agreed with ASLEF will mean fewer services on RMT strike says?

On an entirely different note, earlier in the week I saw an exceptionally helpful OBS, walking though the train before it split, checking people were in the correct part, and even helping one gentleman with their luggage when they needed to move. I just thought I'd post that to balance the reports from others who (like me) often don't see the OBS/guard at all.

In fact, do we know if any/many OBS actually went on strike ?

I gather that some of the new ones aren't in any union.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Are the strikes now making much difference to Southern? BBC says 90% of services ran.

Andrew

 

[a_c_skinner]

Are the strikes now making much difference to Southern? BBC says 90% of services ran.

Andrew

 

[GrimShady]

The Southern strike doesn't affect me however Id like to voice my support for the Train Guards. DOO is a disgrace and should never be allowed!

There are some DOO trains in my city. I cant imagine what its like for the older generation/disabled or people feeling unwell on an unstaffed train. What Id love to know is why there is never money for wages yet there always seems to be plenty for TOC profits. The Railway should be run as a public service for the nation and not an another get rich scheme at the expense of the public or the employees of the railway.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm interested to know if and when ASLEF accept this deal is that it will then mean that if an OBS is unavailable due to industrial action is that the train cannot run? As this isn't sickness nor an OBS been left behind etc

Reference to the discussion a few pages back, as the deal no longer contains an anti-strike clause, that is exactly what should happen.

 

[BestWestern]

You don't have to be called a "guard" to fulfill the role as described in the rule book. Some TOCs call them conductors, train managers, train captains, etc.

They can easily be trained up exactly the same as a guard but only be called upon to operate the doors when the CCTV fails. I believe this is how they work on HS1?

It doesn't matter what the company namebadge says, the Rulebook recognises the role of Guard, and that is it. If communicating with a Signaller in an emergency, the correct protocol is to use the term Guard when stating one's position, regardless of what your TOC has chosen to call you, because a Signaller may well have no idea what one of the various fluffy names actually means. The term Guard is clear, and is universally recognised as somebody who is trained and competent to act. In the worst case scenario, there is no time to be trying to establish who on earth you are talking to and whether or not they are any use. From a technical, operational and competence viewpoint (and it is those viewpoints which matter), one is either a Guard, as per the Rulebook, or not. There is no 'in between' role recognised.

 

[Robertj21a]

It doesn't matter what the company namebadge says, the Rulebook recognises the role of Guard, and that is it. If communicating with a Signaller in an emergency, the correct protocol is to use the term Guard when stating one's position, regardless of what your TOC has chosen to call you, because a Signaller may well have no idea what one of the various fluffy names actually means. The term Guard is clear, and is universally recognised as somebody who is trained and competent to act. In the worst case scenario, there is no time to be trying to establish who on earth you are talking to and whether or not they are any use. From a technical, operational and competence viewpoint (and it is those viewpoints which matter), one is either a Guard, as per the Rulebook, or not. There is no 'in between' role recognised.

So, in an emergency, an OBS rings up and says they are a guard ? Won't that confuse a signaller even more ?

 

[HH]

The Southern strike doesn't affect me however Id like to voice my support for the Train Guards. DOO is a disgrace and should never be allowed!

There are some DOO trains in my city. I cant imagine what its like for the older generation/disabled or people feeling unwell on an unstaffed train. What Id love to know is why there is never money for wages yet there always seems to be plenty for TOC profits. The Railway should be run as a public service for the nation and not an another get rich scheme at the expense of the public or the employees of the railway.

Well Mr. Angry of Wherever, the presence of Guards doesn't affect the TOC profits very much at all. They are held to very stringent requirements by the DfT who decide the matter of DOO/DCO. What Guards/no Guards effects is the size of the Premium paid to the government or the subsidy needed to run the services. And that effects the amount of tax that we taxpayers pay. Those of us who pay tax.

So stop having an apoplexy and go back to your corner, because we don't need more empty vessels sounding off on subjects about which they know the square root of bugger all.

 

[Bromley boy]

Well Mr. Angry of Wherever, the presence of Guards doesn't affect the TOC profits very much at all. They are held to very stringent requirements by the DfT who decide the matter of DOO/DCO. What Guards/no Guards effects is the size of the Premium paid to the government or the subsidy needed to run the services. And that effects the amount of tax that we taxpayers pay. Those of us who pay tax.

So stop having an apoplexy and go back to your corner, because we don't need more empty vessels sounding off on subjects about which they know the square root of bugger all.

Well, if you're annoyed at the subsidy paid to TOCs, you must be apoplectic yourself that the DfT have turned one of the few ToCs covering its costs into one that has cost tens of millions and rising in tax payers' funds as a result of this needless dispute.

As someone who has paid higher rate tax for most of the last decade, I certainly am!

 

[kw12]

Related to this, does anyone actually know whether any services ran without an OBS during the most recent RMT strike specifically due to the OBS being on strike?

The 14.26 Southampton Central to Brighton is an example of a service that ran without an OBS.

For the previous strike Southern stated that "over half (54%) of our on board supervisors (OBS) and conductor staff reported for work on the day". I haven't seen any statement about the proportion who reported for work during Monday's strike.

 

[HH]

Well, if you're annoyed at the subsidy paid to TOCs, you must be apoplectic yourself that the DfT have turned one of the few ToCs covering its costs into one that has cost tens of millions and rising in tax payers' funds as a result of this needless dispute.

As someone who has paid higher rate tax for most of the last decade, I certainly am!

I've paid the higher rate of tax for lot, lot longer than that. Which simply goes to show that I'm not as smart as Donald Trump. Allegedly.

But that wasn't my point at all. It was that the amount (%) TOCs take is actually quite small (and getting smaller). The blame for many of the problems on the network shouldn't be laid at their door (even though they are certainly far from perfect), but rather at DfT's. They are the ones who set the policies.

In this particular case, in the handling of GTR Guards, however, I think that GTR/GoVia have done us all a grave disservice by the way they have handled the whole dispute. We will never know for certain, but my belief is that this dispute could have been a lot shorter and less costly if handled correctly. There is a caveat, however. How much did the execrable Wilkinson affect the GTR approach?

 

[Carlisle]

the DfT have turned one of the few ToCs covering its costs into one that has cost tens of millions and rising in tax payers' funds as a result of this needless dispute.
!

True but our industrial relations history and the bigger picture suggest current procedures and laws ultimately proved rather inadequate in dealing with certain rather militant unions ithat decided quite a while back they were very much up for this fight

 

[Bromley boy]

And you could also argue that perhaps our procedures and laws were rather inadequate to deal with certain militant unions that decided quite a while back they were very much up for this fight !

After the recent legal reforms unions (those which are left) are the weakest they've ever been in the UK, and employee rights here are pretty weak generally compared to other developed European economies.

I agree RMT have been overly militant in the past and pretty kak-handed in the way they've handled this dispute but, objectively speaking, I don't see how it could be argued the unions are the bad guys in the GTR dispute.

 

[DT611]

And you could also argue that perhaps our procedures and laws were rather inadequate to deal with certain militant unions that decided quite a while back they were very much up for this fight !

You could try, but it would effectively be the same as arguing over fake news.
Not only are there no militant unions any more, but the laws are perfectly adequate. In fact, they might be to strict. the only person who wanted the fight was waster wilkinson who in an ideal world would be thrown out on his backside where he belongs.

Joke's on the government here for now i'm afraid. They didn't get rid of the staff, didn't get most of the savings they wanted, lost millions, didn't get rid of the RMT full stop, and a lot of the public didn't buy the propaganda. I'd say short term epic fail at least and well deserved. long term happenings may be different but to those who know the full story, the government have shown themselves to be a bumbling embarrassment. ah well, enjoy i suppose.

 

[GrimShady]

After the recent legal reforms unions (those which are left) are the weakest they've ever been in the UK, and employee rights here are pretty weak generally compared to other developed European economies.

I agree RMT have been overly militant in the past, and pretty kak-handed in the way they've handled this dispute, but objectively speaking I don't see how it could be argued the unions are the bad guys in the GTR dispute.

I agree, What other method does the employee have left to use. The Dutch or French certainly wouldn't tolerate what passes over here.

I must admit though the RMT are a militant bunch higher up and regularly prove themselves to be unreasonable in most discussions (Not railway related). The employees don't really have a choice who the recognised union is do they?

 

[HH]

After the recent legal reforms unions (those which are left) are the weakest they've ever been in the UK, and employee rights here are pretty weak generally compared to other developed European economies.

Certainly the first part of your sentence is hyperbole as we go back before Tolpuddle. Do you have evidence for the second part, or is that the same?

I agree RMT have been overly militant in the past and pretty kak-handed in the way they've handled this dispute but, objectively speaking, I don't see how it could be argued the unions are the bad guys in the GTR dispute.

GTR have been ever more cack-handed (what is it with spelling here tonight? Anyone would think people have been drinking...). Are there good guys and bad guys in this, or is that a rather simplistic way of looking at things?

 

[Bromley boy]

I must admit though the RMT are a militant bunch higher up and regularly prove themselves to be unreasonable in most discussions (Not railway related). The employees don't really have a choice who the recognised union is do they?

Agreed. The "we can drown them if we spit on them" speeches are a country mile away from being relevant to the majority of members on the ground.

 

[HH]

You could if dogma is your thing, but in reality you couldn't, as not only are there no militant unions any more, but the laws are perfectly adequate. the only person who wanted the fight was waster wilkinson who in an ideal world would be thrown out on his backside where he belongs.

Joke's on the government here for now i'm afraid. They didn't get rid of the staff, didn't get most of the savings they wanted, lost millions, didn't get rid of the RMT full stop who might get back to normal should they recognise the OBS grade as well as the gard (good luck to them on that one) and a lot of the public didn't buy the propaganda. I'd say short term epic fail at least and well deserved. I can't say what will happen long term but there is a chance this lot may not be in government in 2020 so whatever does happen by then may not even be on their watch, that's even if the staff are removed.

At least someone on here tonight has some brains. <hats off>

 

[Bromley boy]

Certainly the first part of your sentence is hyperbole as we go back before Tolpuddle. Do you have evidence for the second part, or is that the same?


GTR have been ever more cack-handed (what is it with spelling here tonight? Anyone would think people have been drinking...). Are there good guys and bad guys in this, or is that a rather simplistic way of looking at things?

Jesus wept.

Ok, the TU laws are about the weakest they've been since children were being sent up chimneys (feel free to do some research and tell me I'm wrong).

Good guys bad guys - it's a simplistic internet-forum-kind-of-way of saying that overall I believe GTR/DFT are more responsible for the whole sorry mess than the unions. Everything was pretty good on the southern financially until this dispute, compared to other TOCs.

Which is why as a taxpayer, if you're cheesed off with subsidies to TOCs, you should be rather more cheesed off with the way the GTR/DFT have handled this dispute (my original point)...

 

[GrimShady]

Jesus wept.

Ok, the TU laws are about the weakest they've been since children were being sent up chimneys (feel free to do some research and tell me I'm wrong).

Good guys bad guys - it's a simplistic internet-forum-kind-of-way of saying that overall I believe GTR/DFT are more responsible for the whole sorry mess than the unions. Everything was pretty good on the southern financially until this dispute, compared to other TOCs.

Which is why as a taxpayer you should be pretty cheesed off with it (my original point)...

hear, hear!

 

[HH]

Jesus wept.

Ok, the TU laws are about the weakest they've been since children were being sent up chimneys (feel free to do some research and tell me I'm wrong).

Good guys bad guys - it's a simplistic internet-forum-kind-of-way of saying that overall I believe GTR/DFT are more responsible for the whole sorry mess than the unions. Everything was pretty good on the southern financially until this dispute, compared to other TOCs.

Which is why as a taxpayer you should be pretty cheesed off with it (my original point)...

OK. I get it. You like Sun-style, headline sound bites.

Even when they actually interfere with what you're trying to say.

I am very cheesed off with DfT/GTR on this. Or, probably fairer to say, I'm particularly cheesed off with Horton/Wilkinson, who've made a dog's breakfast of the whole shebang. I keep hoping that someone will sack the pair of ****s.

 

[Carlisle]

You could try, but it would effectively be the same as arguing over fake news.
Not only are there no militant unions any more, but the laws are perfectly adequate. In fact, they might be to strict. the only person who wanted the fight was waster wilkinson who in an ideal world would be thrown out on his backside where he belongs.

Joke's on the government here for now i'm afraid. They didn't get rid of the staff, didn't get most of the savings they wanted, lost millions, didn't get rid of the RMT full stop, and a lot of the public didn't buy the propaganda. I'd say short term epic fail at least and well deserved. long term happenings may be different but to those who know the full story, the government have shown themselves to be a bumbling embarrassment. ah well, enjoy i suppose.

Ok let's forget the bumbling government for a minute and ask did any one of the well known or respected transport publications or journalists come out solidly backing the RMTs position in this whole debacle ?