Southern On Board Supervisor does not know ticketing rules.

[JB_B]

...
Funnily enough, there was actually a briefing about the subject of this thread early in December, but the fact is that it was still buried in an email attachment in the list of all the other emails, with the relevant information being several pages into it, and not accessible on the tablets which are used for ticket sales. Ticket offices are simply more likely to know on the grounds that they are local, and that literally is the main focus of their job - even an OBS, who is mainly there for customer service, has other things on their mind and will also constantly switch between areas of the country.
...

Are you able to share what the briefing said?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The fundamental issue, as I said, is having these local arrangements rather than properly using the ticketing system to express them, i.e. in this case using Also Available At.

The Haymarket vs. Edinburgh Waverley one is similarly ridiculous, so it's by no means the only one. There is no logical reason whatsoever why a single destination could not be used for both of these.

Though that said, GTR being incompetent and therefore unable to manage this kind of thing properly doesn't help. I had an issue some time ago with a ticket office clerk and member of barrier staff who did not know (and would not be corrected on) the restrictions on an Off Peak Single from City Thameslink to Bedford at City Thameslink itself, which beggered belief in its incompetence. The simplest ticket possible other than an Anytime Single, and he still didn't know when to sell it.

 

[maniacmartin]

I don't think you can blame this entirely on GTR, as the local arrangements predate them taking over the franchise.

 

[jon0844]

There are sometimes going to be things that staff aren't instantly made aware for.

For as long as I can remember, the first off-peak train to London from Welwyn Garden City south was the 0924 Moorgate (maybe +/- a minute or two over the years). That's because it arrives after 1000 into London.

You can take that, but not the faster King's Cross train.

The ticket restriction makes it quite clear that this is the case, but you can buy a ticket only to Finsbury Park and that has a different restriction. For that one, you can travel on the 0902 service to King's Cross, but only to Finsbury Park.

I assume you can't switch to another off peak ticket to King's Cross from there as the 'before 1000' restriction would come into play, but you could switch to Oyster and pay off-peak, perhaps using the tube instead for convenience given the need to step off the train to tap in.

A lot of gateline staff were unaware of this. I only found out from another rail user.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think you can blame this entirely on GTR, as the local arrangements predate them taking over the franchise.

You can (and I do) blame GTR for inadequate training/staff management, though, as well as an ineffective complaints process which results in these issues never being fixed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ticket restriction makes it quite clear that this is the case, but you can buy a ticket only to Finsbury Park and that has a different restriction. For that one, you can travel on the 0902 service to King's Cross, but only to Finsbury Park.

<sigh>

"You can't travel on any train timetabled to arrive at a London Terminal before 1000" is just about the most simple restriction you can possibly apply, and it has no loopholes whatsoever.

Why on earth complicate it by having different ones for the stop before?

 

[tsr]

Are you able to share what the briefing said?

Sadly not, but on this matter, it was no more exciting than facts posted on this thread...

The fundamental issue, as I said, is having these local arrangements rather than properly using the ticketing system to express them, i.e. in this case using Also Available At.

I quite agree... although, in this case, fitting in all the information about each and every AAA station might be pushing the capabilities of paper tickets!

I don't think you can blame this entirely on GTR, as the local arrangements predate them taking over the franchise.

Indeed so.

You can (and I do) blame GTR for inadequate training/staff management, though, as well as an ineffective complaints process which results in these issues never being fixed.

I have no evidence that the root of any training issues regarding interavailable stations lies with the current GTR incumbents...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I quite agree... although, in this case, fitting in all the information about each and every AAA station might be pushing the capabilities of paper tickets!

If the fare is the same, you only need <most distant station from London on one line at that fare> AAA <most distant station from London on the other line at that fare>. The fact that season tickets allow Break of Journey deal with the rest.

If the fare isn't the same, well, that's some whacking anomalies to fix.

 

[MikeWh]

If the fare is the same, you only need <most distant station from London on one line at that fare> AAA <most distant station from London on the other line at that fare>. The fact that season tickets allow Break of Journey deal with the rest.

If the fare isn't the same, well, that's some whacking anomalies to fix.

That's fine, until you realise that four lines are involved. So that would be Tattenham Corner AAA Caterham AAA Upper Warlingham AAA Coulsdon South. Would that fit?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That's fine, until you realise that four lines are involved. So that would be Tattenham Corner AAA Caterham AAA Upper Warlingham AAA Coulsdon South. Would that fit?

I think you might have to resort to CRS codes then...

 

[maniacmartin]

Only 3 as Caterham line is excluded. But your point still stands

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only 3 as Caterham line is excluded. But your point still stands

If you issued it as Tattenham Corner AAA Uppr Warl. / Coulsd. that wold be clear enough and probably fit.

 

[MikeWh]

Only 3 as Caterham line is excluded. But your point still stands

Ahh, I looked at the 2007 note posted in post #3. I also can't see why the Caterham line is excluded as it is one of the middle lines. Whyteleafe and Upper Warlingham are ridiculously close together and even have an Oyster OSI between them.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Ahh, I looked at the 2007 note posted in post #3. I also can't see why the Caterham line is excluded as it is one of the middle lines. Whyteleafe and Upper Warlingham are ridiculously close together and even have an Oyster OSI between them.

And is not any ticket valid at Whyteleafe valid at Upper Warlingham and vice versa? I know they always used to be - in fact, I believe it's a permitted interchange for someone coming from somewhere on the Oxted line going to somewhere such as Purley

 

[VT 390]

Indeed, there may come a time when barriers can determine validity but I won't hold my breath.

Ticket barriers do not say if a ticket is valid or not as i use a lot of rovers and ranger and they NEVER work on ticket gates and i dont think that this problem could be fixed.

 

[island]

Given the paucity of what can be stored on the magnetic stripe I very much doubt a ticket barrier can definitively determine the validity of a ticket, even if programmed well, which most are not.

 

[najaB]

Given the paucity of what can be stored on the magnetic stripe I very much doubt a ticket barrier can definitively determine the validity of a ticket, even if programmed well, which most are not.

The problem isn't the ticket, it's the barrier and ticketing system.

One presumes that the ticket magnetic stripe includes the ticket number and issue location? If so a connected barrier could retrieve the details from a central database (if one existed).

 

[MikeWh]

The problem isn't the ticket, it's the barrier and ticketing system.

One presumes that the ticket magnetic stripe includes the ticket number and issue location? If so a connected barrier could retrieve the details from a central database (if one existed).

That wouldn't be quick enough. TfL's Oyster system works entirely at the gate with no interactive central communication.

 

[najaB]

That wouldn't be quick enough. TfL's Oyster system works entirely at the gate with no interactive central communication.

True. But lookups would only be necessary for ticket that aren't obviously valid (e.g. tickets from/to the station in question) or obviously invalid (e.g. expired). So not for the majority of tickets presented.

 

[Deepgreen]

You can (and I do) blame GTR for inadequate training/staff management, though, as well as an ineffective complaints process which results in these issues never being fixed.

Yes, very much so!

 

[furlong]

One presumes that the ticket magnetic stripe includes the ticket number and issue location? If so a connected barrier could retrieve the details from a central database (if one existed).

The existing magnetic stripe doesn't, but a rollout of 2D barcodes onto every ticket format, a central database, and today's faster computers and networks may ultimately lead to some barriers switching over to a "near real-time database" model.

 

[Haywain]

The problem isn't the ticket, it's the barrier and ticketing system.

I disagree. The problem with programming barriers is very much the limitations of the information available on the magnetic strip which, as Furlong has stated, does not contain the information you presumed. With barcodes much more could be done, but that will then require two levels of programming. It will all take time.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I disagree. The problem with programming barriers is very much the limitations of the information available on the magnetic strip which, as Furlong has stated, does not contain the information you presumed. With barcodes much more could be done, but that will then require two levels of programming. It will all take time.

Change is in the air

 

[Haywain]

Change is in the air

That's good news. However, I doubt if we will ever get to a situation where barriers can, no matter the form of the ticket, make an absolute decision about validity. The current issues of routeing, for example, are just too complex for that (in my opinion).

 

[najaB]

The problem with programming barriers is very much the limitations of the information available on the magnetic stripe...

The magnetic stripe holds (IIRC) about 180 bits of data. That's more than ample to uniquely identify the ticket if there was a database to compare it against and a way to make the query.

The query could at the very least identify the stations on the valid routes for the ticket in the majority of cases. Which would mean that there would be no need to program the barrier with valid tickets at all.

Could it be 100% accurate? No, because of loophole tickets, etc. but >98% accuracy should be a doddle.

 

[JB_B]

I'm not sure that we've had an adequate response to the OP's problem.

@tsr pointed out that this issue predates GTR ( maybe going back to BR days - or even earlier, who knows) but to a lay-person it's not at all obvious why any organization would be struggling with a seemingly simple issue.

I don't see any need for a technological solution. What stops GTR from publishing the list of its inter-available stations and ensuring that ticket office, gate line and on-board staff are all briefed accordingly?

 

[JB_B]

Change is in the air

The magnetic stripe holds (IIRC) about 180 bits of data. That's more than ample to uniquely identify the ticket if there was a database to compare it against and a way to make the query.

The query could at the very least identify the stations on the valid routes for the ticket in the majority of cases. Which would mean that there would be no need to program the barrier with valid tickets at all.

Could it be 100% accurate? No, because of loophole tickets, etc. but >98% accuracy should be a doddle.

Re potential changes to gate-line tech I've started a new thread here....

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/smarter-ticket-barriers-good-news-or-bad.175825/

 

[Aictos]

GTR are a rotten company who do not provide decent training for their staff, so it's no surprise they incorrectly charge customers.

You could say that about any number of operators since 1994, some operators do have excellent trainers while some not so much.
As to saying GTR are a rotten company, anyone else in their place probably wouldn't be any better!

 

[Thebaz]

The inter-availability means a Purley Oaks to London Terminals season is also available to / from

"Chipstead, Coulsdon South, Coulsdon Town, Kingswood, Purley Oaks [sic - presumably Purley], Reedham (London), Riddlesdown,
Sanderstead, Tadworth, Tattenham Corner, Upper Warlingham or Woodmansterne."

How does that allow you to pay a lower fare?

I would presume the same fare is available from the Tadworth line stations because the train takes so long to get from Tattenham Corner to Purley Oaks that it would be a disincentive to use the service if a higher fare were charged! I know one chap who lives in Chipstead and he drives to Coulsdon South and gets on the train there because its quicker. And I don't suppose he's the only one.