Southern Railway much improved?

[PGAT]

A well thought out plan in passengers interests would have seen the 455's retained to enable train lengths to be maintained and the 313's to be withdrawn.

Of course, withdrawing the 455's was never about passenger interests, matching the fleet to demand, life expiry or any other such drivel put forward by the Government. It was only ever about cuts.

They were both going to leave sooner or later, and most likely without a proper replacement

 

[yorksrob]

They were both going to leave sooner or later, and most likely without a proper replacement

That's a policy decision which deserves due criticism.

 

[JonathanH]

That's a policy decision which deserves due criticism.

Why? For all you and I know, the savings made by not replacing the stock on Southern, where revenue and loadings didn't justify it may have saved cuts being made in other parts of the country. It is effectively all one budget.

 

[PGAT]

If you were to ask a Seaford commuter (for example) if they would rather

- Get much newer trains, which are about to be refurbished, and cut costs simultaneously

or

- Keep your old trains which are falling apart and will need to go in a couple of years anyway, AND are costing a fortune to maintain

they’re obviously going to choose the former.

 

[yorksrob]

Why? For all you and I know, the savings made by not replacing the stock on Southern, where revenue and loadings didn't justify it may have saved cuts being made in other parts of the country. It is effectively all one budget.

From what I've read on here loadings in some parts of Southern are already crowded.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2023 ==

If you were to ask a Seaford commuter (for example) if they would rather

- Get much newer trains, which are about to be refurbished, and cut costs simultaneously

or

- Keep your old trains which are falling apart and will need to go in a couple of years anyway, AND are costing a fortune to maintain

they’re obviously going to choose the former.

Or ask your Southern commuter would you rather:

-Ditch your old trains now, leaving shorter trains than required

Or

- keep some of the older trains for longer so that they can meet capacity demand.


Weren't the 455's refurbished recently anyway !

 

[ar10642]

Never said for all, but they’ve struck a reasonable balance. Pre-COVID it was a four coach train that attached to another at Haywards Heath, and that certainly is an improvement for Hove passengers throughout most of the day.

It's much, much better without the splitting and joining at HH. Before they did this you ended up with 4 cars through to Eastbourne most of the time and they were often full and standing by Lewes. Plus the reliability is better, you could almost guarantee at least one of the halves of the train would leave late at HH before as the splitting/joining took too long or passengers ran around panicking about whether they were in the right part of the train.

 

[LLivery]

I was quite happy travelling on a 455 in the suburbs and was surprised they were going. We were lucky, they were a much nicer experience than a 315 or 313 (honestly, I don't understand the love for a 313).

If the choice was 377s every 30 mins, or a mix of both every 15 like it was, I'm choosing the latter.

In London, I found reliability to have improved with the timetable change before Covid, so I'm not surprised it's still working well with less trains, although it takes some skill to match the demand and not screw it up.

The interiors have certainly improved. The improved screens are welcome and they feel clean - almost every seat had stains on them until recently; either gum, brown or white patches - your mind naturally wondered what it was...

They're also getting busier on weekends, that's probably just summer though. I visited Rye on the weekend, I was surprised at how many people got off a 3 car 171. While from London Bridge, the Victoria service at 7-8 cars was also busy (and contrary to popular belief, toilets are very much used on suburban services).

 

[Bishopstone]

3-car 171s on Marshlink is another welcome improvement. How are capacity and demand being balanced on the Uckfield diesels? They’ve seen some much shorter formations, though I’ve not heard any commuting horror stories.

 

[al78]

Compared to last year Southern have improved but last year was incredibly poor for delays and cancellations. Compared to pre-COVID I cannot tell a difference although I only used trains very occasionally back then. Signal problems seem to be standing out currently as one of the biggest causes of disruption.

 

[London Trains]

Most lines have a decent service now that matches the demand, but the Victoria to Epsom via Mitcham services seriously need to return (well in reality its actually the Dorking/Horsham fasts that need to return so the slows can be cut back to Epsom), as the combined Victoria to Dorking/Horsham slow service cannot cope.

What used to be 20 coaches every half an hour is now regularly 5 coaches, and services can be severely overcrowded even outside of peak times, to the point where not everyone can get on at Clapham Junction.

The Dorking/Horsham fasts also had a ridiculous amount of pathing time before their removal, so there's potential to save an extra unit (compared to the old timetable before their removal).

 

[PGAT]

3-car 171s on Marshlink is another welcome improvement. How are capacity and demand being balanced on the Uckfield diesels? They’ve seen some much shorter formations, though I’ve not heard any commuting horror stories.

Not much you can really do to balance supply and demand, unless longer formations are allowed on the Marshlink line?

 

[winks]

What a strange post. The 377s are a nice modern fleet and well maintained to be fair. But normal passengers would be happier with their perfectly good 455s back and every train being 8 car than the reduction to 5s, now belatedly improved to 6s. Never see staff on suburban trains

The 455s ain’t perfectly good, thankfully they’ve been consigned to the history books.

 

[ar10642]

What a strange post. The 377s are a nice modern fleet and well maintained to be fair. But normal passengers would be happier with their perfectly good 455s back and every train being 8 car than the reduction to 5s, now belatedly improved to 6s. Never see staff on suburban trains

They were pushing 40 years old weren't they? I assume things are not economic to keep running forever.

 

[TrainGeekUK]

3-car 171s on Marshlink is another welcome improvement. How are capacity and demand being balanced on the Uckfield diesels? They’ve seen some much shorter formations, though I’ve not heard any commuting horror stories.

It is an improvement most definitely, however I still feel the service can be really wishy washy.
The last time I went to Ashford Int from Eastbourne I had a nice two hour wait for a service back to Eastbourne due to staff unavailability.

 

[blelic]

The key thing about Southern in recent years is that there clearly have been some improvements (as well as many cuts). When compared to other operators which have seen almost no improvement - just cuts - then Southern should be said to be improving in the grand scheme of things. Take Southeastern, where the mainline services have been mostly unchanged (Southern’s have been improved in some areas) and the metro services have been hugely cut (Southern’s have been cut in some areas, although mainly through formation changes), then you can clearly see that Southern is doing a decent job at the moment.

 

[387star]

I also think the 377s are a very good train in the outer coaches of most sub classes.

 

[Kumquat]

The reliability is better this year but as the frequency is still halved (Victoria via Norbury services only half hourly not 4tph), crowding is possibly worse.

 

[FOH]

The fact that the 377 fleet comes in 3, 4 and 5 coach flavours gives them a fair bit of flexibility. Evidenced by the East Dulwich route being painfully overcrowded at peak times with 1x5 coach trains pre-May timetable, but now running with 2x3 coach trains.

It looks to me that they do pay attention to capacity pinch points and shuffle around the fleet - if demand does increase though there isn't unlimited room to continue to manoeuvre like this.

 

[WizCastro197]

Anyone else seeing that OBS announcements are extremely quiet on refurbed southern services? Slightly off topic, but is anyone aware where the defective track was today and why every 1Rxx had to be shelved?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2023 ==

The fact that the 377 fleet comes in 3, 4 and 5 coach flavours gives them a fair bit of flexibility. Evidenced by the East Dulwich route being painfully overcrowded at peak times with 1x5 coach trains pre-May timetable, but now running with 2x3 coach trains.

Up to the point where no 5 coach 377s can work with 3,4 coach variants, not that biggest issue in the world but it would be probably operationally easier if they were all in a common pool.

 

[blelic]

Anyone else seeing that OBS announcements are extremely quiet on refurbed southern services?

I think that more depends on the OBS and how clearly they are speaking/how far from the microphone. Notice this on both refurbished and I refurbished units.

 

[WizCastro197]

I think that more depends on the OBS and how clearly they are speaking/how far from the microphone. Notice this on both refurbished and I refurbished units.

Ah thank you, also announcements as well, some refurbished units work fine, others not really, too quiet a a bit muffled.

 

[FOH]

Up to the point where no 5 coach 377s can work with 3,4 coach variants, not that biggest issue in the world but it would be probably operationally easier if they were all in a common pool.

Hmmn that's changed I think. I definitely saw a 3+5 combo in service last week

 

[PGAT]

No 3+5 or 4+5 formations will never be in the WTT, but you will see them on occasion if no units are available

 

[Sm5]

The problem was those 65 trains removed were at the end of their life. We needed a better plan than we got.

Nothing wrong with 455’s.
They had been refurbed, reliability was good.

All that was wrong with them was their accounting age.
If the number crunchers werent hungry they would still be here.

 

[yorksrob]

Nothing wrong with 455’s.
They had been refurbed, reliability was good.

All that was wrong with them was their accounting age.
If the number crunchers werent hungry they would still be here.

Exactly this. The withdrawal was a cut for financial reasons, nothing more.

 

[RichJF]

Hmmn that's changed I think. I definitely saw a 3+5 combo in service last week

I've seen a 3+4+5 in East Grinstead station before so it definitely happens on occasion.

 

[JonathanH]

Exactly this. The withdrawal was a cut for financial reasons, nothing more.

So what if it was. Financial concerns are real. Ultimately someone has to foot the bill. How much traveller hardship really exists that has resulted from the withdrawal of the 313s and 455s and no replacement?

 

[yorksrob]

So what if it was. Financial concerns are real. Ultimately someone has to foot the bill. How much traveller hardship really exists that has resulted from the withdrawal of the 313s and 455s and no replacement?

We've heard accounts of crowded travelling conditions on this very thread.

It's a lot easier and cheaper to keep an existing fleet that is in good condition than to build a new one.

A Government that was serious about providing quality public transport would not be cutting back to the bone before transport has fully recovered.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Not had a good experiencehis weekend on Southern. Stuck at Victoria on Saturday night, then again yesterday afternoon

 

[JonathanH]

We've heard accounts of crowded travelling conditions on this very thread.

Yes, and I have given accounts of practically empty travelling conditions at peak time on routes where there were once twice as many trains running.

One thing Southern are doing well is reviewing their operation to refocus capacity where it is needed, which can take some time to do.

It's a lot easier and cheaper to keep an existing fleet that is in good condition than to build a new one.

Yes, but neither you nor I are an arbiter of saying whether the extra units were needed or not. It is fair to say that at least some of them weren't.

I think it is fair to say that 22 people in a carriage on a Tattenham Corner to London Bridge service leaving East Croydon does not justify a separate Tattenham Corner to London Victoria service running.

A Government that was serious about providing quality public transport would not be cutting back to the bone before transport has fully recovered.

Travel patterns are different though, and 'fully recovered' is a misnomer because they evolve over time. As noted above, one of the things Southern appear to be doing well is recasting timetables in the light of 'recovery' rather than simply saying that the 2018 timetable should be set in stone.

Again, calling it 'cut to the bone' is just your view and not necessarily how the operator sees it. I think it is fair to say that the service is determined by the available rolling stock, but is that 'the bone'?