Southern, Thameslink & Great Northern 'Not On Strike' Details

[OFFDN]

Southern have a message on their website showing they are only running very limited services on Tues 13th, Wed 14th, Fri 16th and Sat 17th Dec and that services will be starting "much later" than normal on Thu 15th and Sun 18th Dec yet if you go to a journey planner search either on their own website at southernrailway.com or via nationalrail.co.uk a regular normal timetable for each of these days is shown.

As they know the strike action is going ahead and from my local station at Ockley it will mean no trains on Tues 13th, Wed 14th, Fri 16th and Sat 17th Dec and only a shuttle service from Dorking to Horsham on Thurs 17th Dec if we are lucky (and only because I previously complained high up about Sunday service following a rail strike day meaning no service at all again from Dorking to Horsham) why exactly is it that GTR and/or Rail Delivery Group still appear unable to show the actual timetable that will be applicable on each strike day and on the day after the strike day at this very late stage in proceedings?

Southern's website also states that "there will also be an overtime ban across the railway network from Sunday 18 December until Monday 2 January. Services may be extremely limited throughout this period" but again have in no way adjusted their online journey planners for the period in question to reflect this.

Can anyone explain to me exactly why it is that at this very late stage with only four and a half days to go before apparently three and a half weeks with either no train services or very limited services neither GTR or Rail Delivery Group have managed to get their act together to show us precisely what train services will be available to those members of the British Public still rash enough to entrust their travel arrangements to an industry that thinks people should spend weeks at home not travelling anywhere whenever their employees feel like holding the country to ransom for pay rises no one working in other jobs can possibly hope to get without any fear of either being sacked or made redundant as a result of their actions.

you do talk some rubbish sometimes.

my understanding is that journey planners should start to be updated from tonight onwards. that’s for next week’s strikes. for 18 to 2nd i am not too sure what the latest is, but at one point last week the plan NR we’re communicating to operators was changing every few hours so the lack of information on that seems justified and understandable. to suggest gtr or rdg haven’t got there act together woefully underestimates the level of activity going in behind the scenes to plan for all the strike dates.

 

[Capvermell]

my understanding is that journey planners should start to be updated from tonight onwards. that’s for next week’s strikes. for 18 to 2nd i am not too sure what the latest is, but at one point last week the plan NR we’re communicating to operators was changing every few hours so the lack of information on that seems justified and understandable. to suggest gtr or rdg haven’t got there act together woefully underestimates the level of activity going in behind the scenes to plan for all the strike dates.

Surely the point is that people frequently have to make their plans to travel far more than four days or two working days ahead and will now already be committed to doing things they cannot change their plans on doing at the last moment without major financial loss and/or inconvenience.

But it seems that the rail unions and/or National Rail (AKA Rail Delivery Group) don't care about any of that and just do whatever's easiest for them regardless of the devastation wrought on other people's lives.

Of course perhaps those of you who have only ever traveled by rail and not also had the option to travel by car have got simply used to having your life put on hold and held to ransom by the most militant and strike happy group of trade unionists in the country...........

 

[Magdalen Road]

you do talk some rubbish sometimes.

my understanding is that journey planners should start to be updated from tonight onwards. that’s for next week’s strikes. for 18 to 2nd i am not too sure what the latest is, but at one point last week the plan NR we’re communicating to operators was changing every few hours so the lack of information on that seems justified and understandable. to suggest gtr or rdg haven’t got there act together woefully underestimates the level of activity going in behind the scenes to plan for all the strike dates.

Being in a job which provides a service to the public, part of a complex multi-agency system, I have some understanding how much activity is going on.
However, there won't be much activity going on in my particular service without some idea of how and when I can get to work.
GTR's 'service' has been incredibly poor over the summer / autumn and the abuse of ToD to deny delay repay, on top of the '3 hour later than usual' first service on post-strike days just adds insult to injury. I will be losing money too, as I won't be getting paid if I can't get in - are the rail unions going to pay my wages?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Southern have a message on their website showing they are only running very limited services on Tues 13th, Wed 14th, Fri 16th and Sat 17th Dec and that services will be starting "much later" than normal on Thu 15th and Sun 18th Dec yet if you go to a journey planner search either on their own website at southernrailway.com or via nationalrail.co.uk a regular normal timetable for each of these days is shown.

As they know the strike action is going ahead and from my local station at Ockley it will mean no trains on Tues 13th, Wed 14th, Fri 16th and Sat 17th Dec and only a shuttle service from Dorking to Horsham on Thurs 17th Dec if we are lucky (and only because I previously complained high up about Sunday service following a rail strike day meaning no service at all again from Dorking to Horsham) why exactly is it that GTR and/or Rail Delivery Group still appear unable to show the actual timetable that will be applicable on each strike day and on the day after the strike day at this very late stage in proceedings?

Southern's website also states that "there will also be an overtime ban across the railway network from Sunday 18 December until Monday 2 January. Services may be extremely limited throughout this period" but again have in no way adjusted their online journey planners for the period in question to reflect this.

Can anyone explain to me exactly why it is that at this very late stage with only four and a half days to go before apparently three and a half weeks with either no train services or very limited services neither GTR or Rail Delivery Group have managed to get their act together to show us precisely what train services will be available to those members of the British Public still rash enough to entrust their travel arrangements to an industry that thinks people should spend weeks at home not travelling anywhere whenever their employees feel like holding the country to ransom for pay rises no one working in other jobs can possibly hope to get without any fear of either being sacked or made redundant as a result of their actions.

This is a huge task for the planning teams who have a normal day job to do dealing with engineering works as well as Xmas. Many of these individuals have worked against union instructions to try and keep as much of the railway moving as possible.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I believe both RMT and ASLEF branches in GTR have now voted for strike action. If that is correct, perhaps this six month old thread about them NOT voting for strike action should be closed?

 

[Magdalen Road]

The thread title could be updated, as this is pinned on the master list of strike threads.

 

[Class 466]

I should add that in view of the blatantly false information still shown on the Southern Rail and National website journey planners I also spoke to their Contact Centre operated by (but which their staff are never allowed to admit to) Teleperformance but as per nearly all my previous dealings with that call centre their staff neither knew or much less still cared what would be happening to Southern rail services or why the journey planners had not yet been updated to reflect these probably non existent train services to my local station (Ockley) for most of the next few weeks as of 13th December onwards.

Should be updated now. It takes time for these timetables to be produced and then uploaded to downstream systems. It was the same across the entire rail network until 2200ish yesterday evening when the alterations for Tuesday/Wednesday & Friday went live, not just Ockley Int'l or the Southern Network.

 

[infobleep]

Should be updated now. It takes time for these timetables to be produced and then uploaded to downstream systems. It was the same across the entire rail network until 2200ish yesterday evening when the alterations for Tuesday/Wednesday & Friday went live, not just Ockley Int'l or the Southern Network.

Out of interest, are there differences in this week's strike timetable compared to the last?

I'm not looking for specifics I'm just wondering if with it being close to Christmas this has meant changes have been needed compared to the last one.

 

[infobleep]

I take it that all the timetable info for tomorrow is loaded into the journey planning systems.

I am just surprised that the combination of trains I wish to catch tomorrow is showing up as possible.

This is the
17:11 Guildford to Redhill service (GWR).
18:06 Redhill to Horley (GTR service)
18:16 Horley to Haywards Heath (GTR service).

I do accept there might be changes in the time but given SWR is struggling to run a service, I'm surprised the others aren't, given.GTR is often canceling trains due to staff shortages.

I guess as their Thameink brand doesn't employ guards, it makes things easier for them.

I am surprised GWR can run both hourly trains on the North Downs Line though as they do rely on guards.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I take it that all the timetable info for tomorrow is loaded into the journey planning systems.

I am just surprised that the combination of trains I wish to catch tomorrow is showing up as possible.

This is the
17:11 Guildford to Redhill service (GWR).
18:06 Redhill to Horley (GTR service)
18:16 Horley to Haywards Heath (GTR service).

I do accept there might be changes in the time but given SWR is struggling to run a service, I'm surprised the others aren't, given.GTR is often canceling trains due to staff shortages.

I guess as their Thameink brand doesn't employ guards, it makes things easier for them.

I am surprised GWR can run both hourly trains on the North Downs Line though as they do rely on guards.

Remember its only an ot and rdw working ban so if you have a depot that doesn't rely upon that you should have no issues.

also NR seem to have issues ongoing in Balcombe Tnl still although looks like an early closure of the line tonight has been agreed so hopefully be fixed for tomorrow but Southern are savaging the service for speed restrictions which looks like a cover for resourcing issues

 

[Bishopstone]

Any gen on what the issue is between Lewes and Seaford (presumably) which will ravage the branch service tomorrow?

 

[Class 466]

Remember its only an ot and rdw working ban so if you have a depot that doesn't rely upon that you should have no issues.

also NR seem to have issues ongoing in Balcombe Tnl still although looks like an early closure of the line tonight has been agreed so hopefully be fixed for tomorrow but Southern are savaging the service for speed restrictions which looks like a cover for resourcing issues

View attachment 125449

Remember the majority of SN services operate without guards, so the overtime ban wouldn't make any difference.

There's a 40 mph speed restriction in place all morning, it really isn't a 'cover for resourcing issues'

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There's a 40 mph speed restriction in place all morning, it really isn't a 'cover for resourcing issues'

for what?

 

[87015]

Remember the majority of SN services operate without guards, so the overtime ban wouldn't make any difference.

There's a 40 mph speed restriction in place all morning, it really isn't a 'cover for resourcing issues'

Apart from the massive number of vacant turns for drivers and guards?

for what?

Rain

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Rain

we seem to be moving to a railway that can only be relied upon to function in fair weather

 

[infobleep]

The is for the replies. Most helpful.

I put my original post in the wrong thread because I had my mind filled with strikes. It's not a strike day of course and I would never wish to think of it as such.

I will keep an eye out for how the trains are doing and leave earlier if needed.

My backup is the 16:40 Guildford to Gatwick Airport.

As it turns out the 18:07 Redhill to Horley is cancelled due to a shortage of staff. It has no gusrd or OBS though but can't rub without a driver. I don't think I'll chance making the 17:57 so I will have to leave earlier.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The is for the replies. Most helpful.

I put my original post in the wrong thread because I had my mind filled with strikes. It's not a strike day of course and I would never wish to think of it as such.

I will keep an eye out for how the trains are doing and leave earlier if needed.

My backup is the 16:40 Guildford to Gatwick Airport.

As it turns out the 18:07 Redhill to Horley is cancelled due to a shortage of staff. It has no gusrd or OBS though but can't rub without a driver. I don't think I'll chance making the 17:57 so I will have to leave earlier.

Its DOO the OBS doesn't have to be there so maybe a driver shortage although generally Redhill have plenty spare cover.

 

[infobleep]

Its DOO the OBS doesn't have to be there so maybe a driver shortage although generally Redhill have plenty spare cover.

It is Thameslink though.

As it is I lost track of time so still ended up on the 17:11 from Guildford.

It got into Redhill early and I git to platform 3 without needing to run in time for the train but the train was 5 minutes late so made no difference.

 

[Capvermell]

The is for the replies. Most helpful.

I put my original post in the wrong thread because I had my mind filled with strikes. It's not a strike day of course and I would never wish to think of it as such.

I will keep an eye out for how the trains are doing and leave earlier if needed.

My backup is the 16:40 Guildford to Gatwick Airport.

As it turns out the 18:07 Redhill to Horley is cancelled due to a shortage of staff. It has no gusrd or OBS though but can't rub without a driver. I don't think I'll chance making the 17:57 so I will have to leave earlier.

Thameslink claims to have a shortage of staff as the excuse for the roughly 1 in 3 to to 1 in 4 of their services that they seem to so frequently cancel (if anyone has different statistics please point me to them). Yet the the Southern division of the same operating group (GoVia Thameslink) cancel very few services indeed on our now admittedly very slow only hourly service from Horsham to London Victoria via Dorking, although they have halved the length of the majority of trains on services with double the passenger numbers on every train compared to prior to September 5th (due to combining the Victoria to Epsom slow with Victoria to Horsham fast services via Epsom as a single train) with the result that we are suffering near old style tube rush hour like crush loads on the final 2325 service from Victoria to Horsham on a Thursday and Friday.

So my theory re Thameslink is that GTR simply feel that they can get away with cancelling this many Thameslink services using bogus excuses like shortage of drivers (as opposed to we aren't currently employing or rostering enough drivers to cover the scheduled trains as seems far more likely) without any financial retribution from the DfT, thus substantially reducing their operating costs for running the contracted services while still receiving the same level of revenue from the DfT for running the franchise. Although it may of course just be that the system they currently have of running through trains from Brighton to Peterborough and Cambridge with two driver changes en route is simply inherently flawed and effectively triples the chance of any single Thameslink train being cancelled somewhere en route due to a driver being unavailable at the handover point on one of the three legs involved?......

But certainly GTR needs to be much more heavily financially penalised for the constant and frequent cancellations or threatened with being stripped of their franchise for the current situation to change but for as long as they aren't they seem to think they can simply continue to get away with blaming either staff shortages or alleged collateral knock-ons from preceding strike days as the almost certainly bugus reason for the numerous cancellations. This seems to have been going on with Thameslink to at least as far back as 2015 (see www.railforums.co.uk/threads/thameslink-cancellations.118401/ ) and 2018 (see https://londonist.com/london/transp...ing-their-anger-over-new-thameslink-timetable) yet absolutely nothing is done to correct the situation by the DfT, or the Office of Rail and Road.

And yet one cannot imagine a situation such as this persisting over so many years on the Swiss Railways............

 

[London Trains]

Don't want to create a new thread but any reason why a large chunk of GTR stations in south London have stopped reporting train times?

Between Tulse Hill/Waddon and Ewell East, Streatham Common and the entirety of the Wimbledon loop (including the TL platforms at Wimbledon but not any of the others) and the Epsom Downs branch, services come up as "no report" on NRE, RTT etc.

 

[JonathanH]

Is it to do with the resignalling project?

 

[Stephen42]

Is it to do with the resignalling project?

Most likely, those areas have changed train describers so the SMART database which converts from signalling berth movements into arrivals and departures at locations needs new entries for the new train describer. The snapshot available via open data only has entries for X5, possibly the industry version hasn't been updated either which would result in trains not having times reported.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Most likely, those areas have changed train describers so the SMART database which converts from signalling berth movements into arrivals and departures at locations needs new entries for the new train describer. The snapshot available via open data only has entries for X5, possibly the industry version hasn't been updated either which would result in trains not having times reported.

Is this why everything is showing "TS11" on Open Train Times and not reporting on Real Time Trains in that area?

 

[Stephen42]

Is this why everything is showing "TS11" on Open Train Times and not reporting on Real Time Trains in that area?

Yes the change in train describer would also mean that all signalling maps would need to be updated to avoid showing the final state of the decommissioned system and any systems like RTT or Darwin which have their own stepping tables would need to be updated for the new train describer.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes the change in train describer would also mean that all signalling maps would need to be updated to avoid showing the final state of the decommissioned system and any systems like RTT or Darwin which have their own stepping tables would need to be updated for the new train describer.

Thank you.

A lot of the information screens on the stations in that area were showing incorrect details as well yesterday - like several hours worth of previous trains being "due" at once.

Is that related, or a separate technical issue?

 

[Stephen42]

Thank you.

A lot of the information screens on the stations in that area were showing incorrect details as well yesterday - like several hours worth of previous trains being "due" at once.

Is that related, or a separate technical issue?

It would be related. If the train doesn't go on to call/pass a location with an actual time report then the passenger facing info has no idea where the train is. Depending on the circumstances it will appear as either Due or Delayed and as it's a configuration issue many trains could end up in that state. This will be until someone takes manual action to put an actual time into the passenger facing system or actual times are received from another system (which may have been entered manually).

Today I think the information screens should be more accurate, looking at the main stations on Open Train Times manual TRUST reports are being made which should stop trains being stuck on the screens for long periods. There are some TRUST DA entries which are so the Delay Attribution records are correct. An example train on OpenTrainTimes the locations with the keyboard icon next to the actuals are manual entries.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes the change in train describer would also mean that all signalling maps would need to be updated to avoid showing the final state of the decommissioned system and any systems like RTT or Darwin which have their own stepping tables would need to be updated for the new train describer.

Thats always been part of resignalling schemes so must have been a database update failure somewhere along the way.

 

[London Trains]

Seems they are just manually updating the system at Sutton, Mitcham Junction, Streatham, Wimbledon and Epsom Downs now (but still not at the other stations affected). The times seem to update on RTT/NRE a couple of hours after services, in large batches at a time.

Would this be fixed by the time Victoria reopens?

 

[BingBong50]

Does anyone know if the strike on 16th March 2023 will be a complete stop of all GTR services or will there be a limited timetable. I need to travel from Brighton to East Croydon. Online timetables don't seem to have been updated yet.

Any help appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Does anyone know if the strike on 16th March 2023 will be a complete stop of all GTR services or will there be a limited timetable. I need to travel from Brighton to East Croydon. Online timetables don't seem to have been updated yet.

Any help appreciated. Thank you.

I'm assuming that, because Network Rail Signallers will be on strike, they will only offer a service from 0700-1900. Please note that this is my recollection of what happened last time; this time may well be different.