Southern, Thameslink & Great Northern 'Not On Strike' Details

[Cricketer8for9]

I may have missed it, but is there a thread on the very early finish to trains across much of the Southern network yesterday (20 May)?

 

[JonathanH]

I may have missed it, but is there a thread on the very early finish to trains across much of the Southern network yesterday (20 May)?

Apparently they didn't have resources to put in place a bespoke timetable for Saturday that matched the availability of traincrew so just used a previous RMT strike timetable, with the consequent early finish.

Quite a coup for ASLEF to get that much disruption out of just an overtime ban, although I imagine the observation won't have reached any decision makers.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

No trains after 6pm from Victoria is quite a coup. Busy buses in South London.

 

[Stephen42]

Apparently they didn't have resources to put in place a bespoke timetable for Saturday that matched the availability of traincrew so just used a previous RMT strike timetable, with the consequent early finish.

Quite a coup for ASLEF to get that much disruption out of just an overtime ban, although I imagine the observation won't have reached any decision makers.

I think the decision makers are very much aware. Many operators changes in the May 23 timetables were in part to reduce reliance on rest day working based with one of the motivations being to give operators a stronger position in future industrial disputes.

 

[JonathanH]

I think the decision makers are very much aware. Many operators changes in the May 23 timetables were in part to reduce reliance on rest day working based with one of the motivations being to give operators a stronger position in future industrial disputes.

I was more coming at my point from whether it moves the ASLEF members closer to their aspiration.

Your comment suggests that reducing rest day working will mean that overtime bans are less effective in causing disruption in the future.

 

[infobleep]

I think the decision makers are very much aware. Many operators changes in the May 23 timetables were in part to reduce reliance on rest day working based with one of the motivations being to give operators a stronger position in future industrial disputes.

If they were trying to take control of the narrative and I don't know of they were, it back fired on them in my case. I read the disruption notice and to my mind it came across as they rely so much on overtime compared to other local TOCs, that they can't run a good timetable on the Saturday due to staff deciding not to do overtime.

 

[Stephen42]

I was more coming at my point from whether it moves the ASLEF members closer to their aspiration.

Your comment suggests that reducing rest day working will mean that overtime bans are less effective in causing disruption in the future.

True, though I expect ASLEF knew that on some operators the overtime bans would be more effective the week before the timetable change than after.

The problem for ASLEF is that rest day working bans have very different impacts depending on the operator. Some rest day working isn't happening anyway due to not required, lack of agreement or volunteers. Others only reduces the number of drivers spare with a minimal increase in cancellations. Then there's a few like Southern where it makes a material impact.

If they were trying to take control of the narrative and I don't know of they were, it back fired on them in my case. I read the disruption notice and to my mind it came across as they rely so much on overtime compared to other local TOCs, that they can't run a good timetable on the Saturday due to staff deciding not to do overtime.

I don't think they were trying to control it, it's more the discussions the DfT and operators are having in the background. A combination of factors mean they rely on overtime more compared to other local operators, this is throughout rather than just Saturdays. The limited planning resource probably focused on the weekdays to have a less reduced service as that's 5 days improved rather than 1 days service.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I think the decision makers are very much aware. Many operators changes in the May 23 timetables were in part to reduce reliance on rest day working based with one of the motivations being to give operators a stronger position in future industrial disputes.

Far more sensible to plan a service around known resource availability that benefits both passengers and train crew. If it requires a few gaps in service patterns so be it people will soon work around it.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Apparently they didn't have resources to put in place a bespoke timetable for Saturday that matched the availability of traincrew so just used a previous RMT strike timetable, with the consequent early finish.

With no compensation due and a belief by GTR that no alternative travel arrangements required as it is "industrial action"...

 

[infobleep]

Industrial Action: Amended timetable with fewer services - Monday 3 July to Saturday 8 July inclusive
Hide details

Journey Planner Update
We are aware of a national issue with the National Rail and Trainline journey planners showing incorrectly from Monday 3 until Friday 7 July. National Rail Enquires and Trainline are working on getting this issue resolved as soon as possible. Please check your journey again tomorrow morning, before you travel.
Travel Advice
ASLEF union have announced a ban on overtime from Monday 3 July until Saturday 8 July inclusive.
An amended timetable with fewer services will run during this time. Services will be busier than usual, especially in peak hours. It is likely you will need to queue and may not be able to board your chosen service. We advise you allow extra time to complete your journey.

Service Updates

Check for service cancellations, engineering works and other possible disruptions on your Southern route.

www.southernrailway.com

I was quite surprised to read that the journey planners showing incorrectly was an issue that National Rail Enquires and Trainline needed to fix.

Who signed off on this surely misleading disruption notice or do Trainline really get involved with updating the journey planners?

 

[MikeWM]

At some point in the last few days, they've changed what they suggested was going to be next Saturday's service - which when originally published had no trains at all between Ely and Kings Lynn. Now they have one an hour running, which seems rather more acceptable.

 

[London Trains]

At some point in the last few days, they've changed what they suggested was going to be next Saturday's service - which when originally published had no trains at all between Ely and Kings Lynn. Now they have one an hour running, which seems rather more acceptable.

I think the original page was copied and pasted from the last Saturday overtime ban - it also had the Dorking/Horsham via Mitcham services only running from Victoria to Sutton which was the case last time due to engineering works, but it has been changed so these services run as normal now.

 

[MikeWM]

I think the original page was copied and pasted from the last Saturday overtime ban - it also had the Dorking/Horsham via Mitcham services only running from Victoria to Sutton which was the case last time due to engineering works, but it has been changed so these services run as normal now.

Yes, I think you're right - I suspected it was a copy and paste job, but didn't have the time to check. But then eg. as shown in the discussions above, GTR have form in reusing previous timetables rather than trying to actually match resources, so it also seemed likely to be accurate. I'm pleased it isn't though.

 

[Magdalen Road]

The GTR twitter account earlier this afternoon was saying the timetables for next week contain errors and whilst they're trying to get them corrected, people could ask them for specific trains via twitter.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes, I think you're right - I suspected it was a copy and paste job, but didn't have the time to check. But then eg. as shown in the discussions above, GTR have form in reusing previous timetables rather than trying to actually match resources, so it also seemed likely to be accurate. I'm pleased it isn't though.

I suspect they don't have the resources or the time to unpick every diagram to work out what can be covered with drivers working rostered hours only. Mind you even if they could they would then have to publish a bespoke timetable which might be different on a daily basis so this is least worse outcome. Ultimately this is going to be the norm now for at least next 15-18mths and then im not sure Labour, should they be successful, really be able to change anything. To my mind they should optimise the timetable around known driver availability and stick with that as the base timetable and just not rely upon any overtime.

 

[jon0844]

I think Real Time Trains is showing the correct information, although it may not be correct on Saturday 8th where services finish earlier and some trains will be advertised as set down only.

Not sure if this is to prepare for the possibility of further cancellations and limiting the impact.

 

[infobleep]

The GTR twitter account earlier this afternoon was saying the timetables for next week contain errors and whilst they're trying to get them corrected, people could ask them for specific trains via twitter.

So did National Rail Enquiries and Trainline introduce these errors? I doubt it.

This isn't meant as a criticism of those who did. More about the message on the Sourhern branded Web Site.

What interests me is will I be able to get from Brighton to Guildford after 10 pm on Wednesday evening. I shall find out Monday (tomorrow) morning.

 

[jon0844]

The correct data apparently didn't update overnight and there are duplicates, with different timings. Seems like they'll need to go through one by one to check things.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Let's hope they pay delay repay on the trains that were showing in the Timetable of the Day at 2200 last night but weren't meant to run.

 

[OneOfThe48]

So did National Rail Enquiries and Trainline introduce these errors? I doubt it.

This isn't meant as a criticism of those who did. More about the message on the Sourhern branded Web Site.

If the journey planners are wrong, it sounds like an ‘industry systems’ issue.

We won’t know what specifically went wrong without more information.

But I think journey planners incorrectly updating has happened a few times this week and for non-GTR TOCs as well, so there seems to be some sort of issue.

 

[jon0844]

Let's hope they pay delay repay on the trains that were showing in the Timetable of the Day at 2200 last night but weren't meant to run.

RTT was showing the correct information some days ago, so it seems to be a problem relating to the CIS and some planners.

I am not sure what happens in such circumstances as this, which is not something that happens often and seems to be only an issue on days of industrial action (but of course, now industrial action is becoming more common this becomes a bigger problem).

If the TOC itself showed a train incorrectly as running before it was removed on the day, I would say they should pay out. However, if you checked on something like Google Maps or Trainline and got incorrect information, because they just got the usual timetable data without amendments, and the TOC was right, then it might be harder to claim. Perhaps the claim would go to trainline for misinforming people.

 

[Failed Unit]

Must admit, I will need to watch this carefully. I bought and AP ticket last week to Travel on Friday. Granted I will get delay repay if the trains I have booked on don’t really exist, but would prefer to get to my destination

 

[ThameslinkUser]

If the TOC itself showed a train incorrectly as running before it was removed on the day, I would say they should pay out. However, if you checked on something like Google Maps or Trainline and got incorrect information, because they just got the usual timetable data without amendments, and the TOC was right, then it might be harder to claim. Perhaps the claim would go to trainline for misinforming people.

Fortunately I had the foresight to visit the Southern Journey Planner at 11pm last night, well after the 22:00 cut off for the timetable of the day. I am currently sat on the 1516 but arrived with enough time to catch the train they promised to run to last night (1446)

 

[infobleep]

If the journey planners are wrong, it sounds like an ‘industry systems’ issue.

We won’t know what specifically went wrong without more information.

But I think journey planners incorrectly updating has happened a few times this week and for non-GTR TOCs as well, so there seems to be some sort of issue.

But the Southern-branded page didn't say a system-wide issue. They just name-checked two companies who have journey planners and said they are dealing with it

I hears the national system wide issue when at Guildford station. Quite rightly they didn't single out just 2 companies.

I also noted that There are 3. Trains an hour from Redhill to Garwick Airport. Most hours it is x17, x27 and x37, followed by a 40 minute gap.

I do appreciate they can't keep creating bespoke timetables and it is only temporary. Just something I noticed.

 

[MikeWM]

Hmm, so Great Northern are claiming that their Kings Cross to Kings Lynn service this week is 'One train per hour, but increased to two during peak hours'. Doesn't look much like it on evenings, where there is one an hour all afternoon and evening, with just one extra service provided (the 1809 off KGX) - a rather narrow definition of the word 'peak'...

The lack of the 1709 proceeding further north than Cambridge also puts a huge gap in services north from Cambridge North at exactly the time people want to travel home from work - nothing between 1739 and 1821, and the 1821 is in fact the GA Liverpool Street - Ely service which isn't even in the timetable to stop at CMB (but seems to be doing so anyway).

Equally there's nothing *at all* southbound from CMB between 1739 and 1832, given the 1800 to Kings Cross is missing. All seems rather rubbish, especially if this is going to be happening regularly in the weeks and months to come, as seems likely.

 

[JonathanH]

All seems rather rubbish, especially if this is going to be happening regularly in the weeks and months to come, as seems likely.

That seems like a good outcome for ASLEF then, compared to other operators where this action doesn't seem to be having much effect. It would be an even better outcome if there are some decision makers affected.

 

[MikeWM]

That seems like a good outcome for ASLEF then, compared to other operators where this action doesn't seem to be having much effect.

Well, as a result I'll probably work from home more often the next few weeks. Which is good for me as I get to stay in bed longer in the morning *and* save money, but I'm not sure it helps anyone involved with the railway much.

 

[Magdalen Road]

Well, as a result I'll probably work from home more often the next few weeks. Which is good for me as I get to stay in bed longer in the morning *and* save money, but I'm not sure it helps anyone involved with the railway much.

It's a complete pain for me, the only afternoon ones that are running are heaving. And can't claim delay repay. Why have I paid for an annual season ticket? Surely I should be getting a % back because combined with the engineering works, the service is pitiful.

 

[MikeWM]

It's a complete pain for me, the only afternoon ones that are running are heaving. And can't claim delay repay. Why have I paid for an annual season ticket? Surely I should be getting a % back because combined with the engineering works, the service is pitiful.

It is really poor; I do appreciate how lucky I am that I can work from home as and when necessary!

 

[bicbasher]

For some reason, the 0828 from Forest Hill to London Bridge isn't showing, despite 2tph running throughout the day otherwise this week between London Bridge and Victoria.