Southern Timetable Change 2018

[JonathanH]

One of the associated problems is that there is no use of 377/3s or 377/6s (other than 377/3s on the Redhill to Tonbridge line) outside the Metro area so all East Grinstead / Redhill services are either 8 or 12 coach.

Some people have been forced to travel earlier (ie 0645 from Redhill has a lot of people who would previously travelled at 0704) so whereas they got away with 8-car trains at 0643 before the demand at the same time is now greater.

I hope that they are genuinely monitoring the demand with the new service patterns.

 

[andos]

Surprised an 1851 would be busier than a 1721 as it's further away from the height of the peak (which I've always understood to be approximately 1700 to 1830, with 1730 to 1800 being the absolute height) - but evidently it is. Are there less alternative trains at 1851 than there are at 1721?

Could be something like that, or maybe a cancellation just before or after the 1851 last night made it particularly bad last night. One other thing is the old 1723 usually had some 3+2 seating whereas the old 1853 was all 2 + 2 so potentially more people standing just made the carriages look fuller. Last night's 1851 was also 2 + 2 seating which also wouldn't help, especially as it is now only 8 coaches. Much comfier if you are lucky enough to get a seat though!

 

[Class455]

Are there not going to be any 455's on the Caterham line during the weekends? Seems as though all diagrams on a Saturday are fast London Bridge services and attach/divide at Purley, so would assume these are 377/6's?

 

[JonathanH]

Are there not going to be any 455's on the Caterham line during the weekends? Seems as though all diagrams on a Saturday are fast London Bridge services and attach/divide at Purley, so would assume these are 377/6's?

In the base timetable:

Saturday - Alternate 377/6s on the fast London Bridge to Caterham / Tattenham Corner trains and 455s on the London Bridge to Caterham via Tulse Hill and London Bridge to Coulsdon Town stopping trains.

Sunday - All 377/6

This weekend, the Tulse Hill trains are dropped from the timetable due to engineering work.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

The Victoria evening high peak has tended to be 1730 to 1830 for a while now.

 

[zoneking]

Points failure at Redhill and broken down train at Gatwick causing many delays this morning.

 

[sarahj]

Issues being picked up. The last train from Pmh-Btn arrive 00.30 is back being a 313 and all the toilet issues that brings up. (sats ex we think).
A Vic-Lit used to call at East worthing around 15.20 to pick up School Girls from a local Catholic school. , This has now being missed out and With the earlier train, just being slightly too early, the School children are having much longer waits. Up to 40 mins on Wed night. Extra security is having to be sent until a solution can be worked on.
No one coming from the Ebn direction is going on the Ore-Vic, changing at Lws onto the new XX.23 Lws -Btn all station as yet. But that may change as folks get used to that.
Hanging round stations, Shoreham, Lancing, Mouslecoomb, Hove all now have extended dwell times. TBH, on a Btn bound service, the longer Dwell time should have been at Falmer as it way more busier.

 

[GodAtum]

A Vic-Lit used to call at East worthing around 15.20 to pick up School Girls from a local Catholic school. , This has now being missed out and With the earlier train, just being slightly too early, the School children are having much longer waits. Up to 40 mins on Wed night. Extra security is having to be sent until a solution can be worked on.

are the girls really that badly behaved?

 

[sarahj]

No, they are well behaved, it's just there is a lot of them, it's a little station, and a few come from well connected parents, so they are just there to keep an eye on them. There are also normally some teachers present.

 

[GodAtum]

No, they are well behaved, it's just there is a lot of them, it's a little station, and a few come from well connected parents, so they are just there to keep an eye on them. There are also normally some teachers present.

Ah OK. At Maidenhead, impossible to get everyone on a 3 car turbo and sometimes fights breaking out between kids.

 

[IKB]

It's still early days and trying to keep an open mind, but Windmill Bridge doesn't seem much improved, even with TL cancellations:
A couple of examples below from this evenings peak, although there are plenty more to choose from!

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W60785/2018/05/24/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W60782/2018/05/24/advanced

Caterham - Tulse Hill - Bridge stoppers getting stiffed by Up Grinsteads at South Croydon Junc, in the same way the old Caterham - Vic stopper did.

The 377 splitting/joining at Purley has hardly been a rip roaring success either, but then that was entirely predictable.

 

[southern442]

Apologies if this has already been picked up, but I'm a little confused about the Brighton service. I notice there is only 1tph to Cambridge at the moment, will a second service be introduced to fulfill the original 4tph to Vic, 4tph to LBG idea? Or is this service reduction permanent? (wouldn't surprise me)

I notice the Southern trains to Vic now have a uniform service pattern now, which I think is much nicer (non-stop between Burgess Hill and Horley was just so incredibly random). Although am I right in thinking there are no more semi-fast Thameslink services to Brighton now?

 

[Ianno87]

Apologies if this has already been picked up, but I'm a little confused about the Brighton service. I notice there is only 1tph to Cambridge at the moment, will a second service be introduced to fulfill the original 4tph to Vic, 4tph to LBG idea? Or is this service reduction permanent? (wouldn't surprise me)

I notice the Southern trains to Vic now have a uniform service pattern now, which I think is much nicer (non-stop between Burgess Hill and Horley was just so incredibly random). Although am I right in thinking there are no more semi-fast Thameslink services to Brighton now?

Plan is for Cambridge-Brighton to become 2tph in December, thus restoring a 4tph Thameslink core to Brighton service for the first time since Jan 2015.

 

[JonathanH]

It's still early days and trying to keep an open mind, but Windmill Bridge doesn't seem much improved, even with TL cancellations:
A couple of examples below from this evenings peak, although there are plenty more to choose from!

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W60785/2018/05/24/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W60782/2018/05/24/advanced

Caterham - Tulse Hill - Bridge stoppers getting stiffed by Up Grinsteads at South Croydon Junc, in the same way the old Caterham - Vic stopper did.

The 377 splitting/joining at Purley has hardly been a rip roaring success either, but then that was entirely predictable.

What causes the problem with throughput on platform 6 at East Croydon? The new timetable now puts all northbound trains (other than terminating West London Line services) through platform 4 so the old problem with overlap and using platform 5 in both directions should be much reduced.

Congestion between East Croydon and Purley is causing havoc with the service to Redhill.

The 377 splitting at Purley should be straightforward but goes wrong in times of disruption. As a concept, it makes a lot of sense to provide fast services to both destinations in this way. I guess these going wrong is a traincrew issue rather than problems with 377s. The scheduling of the service groups at Purley doesn't actually look that bad, but as with everything in this timetable, it needs on time running all day to work.

 

[samogers]

Now its been a few weeks, how's the new Southern timetable doing compared to the Thameslink debacle?

 

[London Trains]

Now its been a few weeks, how's the new Southern timetable doing compared to the Thameslink debacle?

Pretty good compared to Thameslink, at least on the lines I have used.

 

[87015]

Pretty good compared to Thameslink, at least on the lines I have used.

The Metro TT is holding up very, very well. The drivers sign the route!

 

[jha4ceb]

A few observations commuting from East Croydon to Victoria in the mornings -

Plenty of trains delayed following late Thameslink trains. On the 08:08 and 08:15 it's fairly common to wait behind 1I09 (which merges onto the fast at Streatham) before Clapham Junction, which can be frustrating. With fewer services in the period after 8am then before the timetable change I would have expected less congestion into CLJ, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Very minor complaints compared to Thameslink, of course...

 

[tsr]

A few observations commuting from East Croydon to Victoria in the mornings -

Plenty of trains delayed following late Thameslink trains. On the 08:08 and 08:15 it's fairly common to wait behind 1I09 (which merges onto the fast at Streatham) before Clapham Junction, which can be frustrating. With fewer services in the period after 8am then before the timetable change I would have expected less congestion into CLJ, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Very minor complaints compared to Thameslink, of course...

1I** services via Streatham North Jn are not Thameslink, even though some are incorrectly listed as such on the departure boards and online.

 

[jha4ceb]

Yes, I realise that didn't read quite as I intended. I meant services getting held up by TL prior to ECR, and then by 1I09 after ECR.

 

[JonathanH]

A few observations commuting from East Croydon to Victoria in the mornings -

Plenty of trains delayed following late Thameslink trains. On the 08:08 and 08:15 it's fairly common to wait behind 1I09 (which merges onto the fast at Streatham) before Clapham Junction, which can be frustrating. With fewer services in the period after 8am then before the timetable change I would have expected less congestion into CLJ, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Very minor complaints compared to Thameslink, of course...

I think a lot of the problems on the mainline side actually stem back to congestion at Gatwick - not helped by
* Thameslink trains terminating there from the north off the fast line and having to return slow line - therefore crossing to platforms 1 to 3 - it would make much more sense for them to go via Redhill if possible (and preferably stop).
* Southern and GWR trains terminating there also.
* The use of platform 3 for northbound services off the fast lines and the slow lines

It is a shame that all the services were made so tight as to not allow reversal of some at Three Bridges and others at Gatwick.

Some teething problems with splitting at Purley and holding up trains on the slow lines.

A bit of a procession through East Croydon platform 4 from xx24 to xx45. Taking the stops out of the Uckfield trains between Oxted and East Croydon (because they aren't all 10-car) means they can present pretty early at South Croydon Junction which I guess is frustrating for the passengers on them to have to wait their slot (and tempting for the signaller to put first in front of the Reigate / Gatwick Airport to London Victoria train.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Southern, in my experience has been pretty good, am peak and post peak pm. In fact rather better than the old timetable. It’s not perfect, things rarely are.

Maybe the lack of ThamesLink trains means that the network is rather less busy. I’m a Victoria commuter not London Bridge, I’m guessing London Bridge may be rather busier as the Southern trains have to deal with the displaced Thameslink passengers.

 

[infobleep]

It's going well for Gatwixk Express today. Hardly any trains running. Still it's only their preimum service. Points failure towards Victoria is the cause, along with a train late from the depot and a broken down train.

 

[tsr]

A bit of a procession through East Croydon platform 4 from xx24 to xx45. Taking the stops out of the Uckfield trains between Oxted and East Croydon (because they aren't all 10-car) means they can present pretty early at South Croydon Junction which I guess is frustrating for the passengers on them to have to wait their slot (and tempting for the signaller to put first in front of the Reigate / Gatwick Airport to London Victoria train.

Northbound/Up Uckfield services haven’t routinely called at the stations between Oxted and East Croydon for many years (Southbound/Down services being a different matter, with all-stations services up to last month). Uckfield trains get held at red or yellow signals on the Up approaching/through South Croydon more often than they get clear runs, with many booked to wait for several minutes, and others simply waiting for interminable Down direction stopping services to call at South Croydon and then make their way over the junction (no, I’ve never understood that either).

The signallers certainly do regulate into the right order - and in any case, anything else causes chaos, as the departure boards at East Croydon don’t update quickly enough for trains in different orders, so dwell times are an issue.

There’s no practical way for those trains to call at the intermediate stations from Oxted anyway. Shorter trains would get hopelessly busy (even on weekends and off-peak), and the longer ones can only release doors on the front 5 coaches, which also means dispatch from the coach 5 position takes ages, due to platform curvature.

 

[387star]

Epsom dorking services and back road to Horsham are advertised as tl
Why

 

[London Trains]

Epsom dorking services and back road to Horsham are advertised as tl
Why

And this means they're advertised on the SE BOARDS at Victoria which is really annoying. I think it is just an accident in the system.

 

[Agent_Squash]

SN Mainline at 93% punctuality today, Metro at 95% and Coastway at 97%. There's some engineering works going on but they appear to impact TL more - but the new SN timetable does fulfill it's objective of making the service more reliable.

 

[FOH]

From my own experience, Southern services leaving LBG on the Sydenham metro routes seem to sit at New Cross Gate for a couple of minutes only to then lose time at Forest Hill due to how long it takes for everyone to get off (probably not helped by almost every train being vintage). I wonder why they don’t just add those minutes on at the Norwood Jn/Crystal Palace holds.

 

[Ianno87]

From my own experience, Southern services leaving LBG on the Sydenham metro routes seem to sit at New Cross Gate for a couple of minutes only to then lose time at Forest Hill due to how long it takes for everyone to get off (probably not helped by almost every train being vintage). I wonder why they don’t just add those minutes on at the Norwood Jn/Crystal Palace holds.

Think it's for pathing to give sufficient headway behind the preceding East London Line service southwards from New Cross Gate.

 

[Bishopstone]

I’m commuting to and from Gatwick, at the moment.

After two good weeks of the new timetable, matters have unfortunately lapsed back to old ways, with my regular (Down) East Coastway trains in the PM peak typically turning-up 10 minutes late at Gatwick, meaning the booked Seaford connections at Lewes are missed.

The conversion of a number of former 3x377 East Coastway peak workings to 2x377 in the new timetable is unwelcome.