Southern Timetable Change September 2022

[PGAT]

A bit dubious making decisions based on August loadings, though. There’s likely to be an uplift in numbers once September comes.

I wonder why there’s a new timetable in September

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It’s not just the Arun Valley line, it’s everywhere. Very few routes run 12 coaches off peak anymore, trains to EGR and EBN are 1tph, pretty much none of the metro routes are 4tph and 10 coaches anymore, and the 313s are going in December which just makes everything even worse

Well they had to find the stock from somewhere to cover the loss of the 455's. From what i can see there are a few services where its cosy but majority of trains in the high peak remain comfortable compared to what i had to contend with for the last 40 years.

 

[Southern Dvr]

All ties into the big 387 debacle. I think too much assumption was made that the 387 cascade was going to happen and solve the gaping hole that the 455 demise has left. The West London Line is severely overcrowded now, 4 car units with majority table seating is just terrible. I’m not particularly familiar with 387s but I gather there are less tables which would have made them ideal. But, I digress. The driver [route knowledge] deficit will hopefully be getting addressed as with less trains in the timetable to cover the more time there should be to address the training deficit. However, we are in for a rough few months until whenever this timetable (at least) runs out.

 

[PGAT]

. However, we are in for a rough few months until whenever this timetable (at least) runs out.

The next timetable is in December, and not much seems to change apart from the EGRs being half hourly

 

[JonathanH]

The next timetable is in December, and not much seems to change apart from the EGRs being half hourly

East Grinstead services aren't necessarily going back to being half hourly from December. The ones not running in September are still shown as "Runs as Required" in RTT on weekday mornings from the December timetable change.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...22-12-13/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Still a few middle of the day Eastbourne and Littlehampton services missing as well in September and December. I wonder if anyone is missing them.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Will the new timetable have any greater chance of actually being met? The current one certainly doesn’t work at the moment.

 

[PGAT]

Will the new timetable have any greater chance of actually being met? The current one certainly doesn’t work at the moment.

September or December?

September is 100% happening as it’s been publicised on their website and is only a week away from happening.

December is subject to change at any point as of yet.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Sorry - by being met I mean will the trains run and be on time? I quite accept the timetable will happen, but how much of a work of fiction will it be?

 

[Southern Dvr]

The next timetable is in December, and not much seems to change apart from the EGRs being half hourly

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I believe the September and December timetables will be rough and grim for the travelling public.

If we get a March timetable it may bring some things back, hopefully the May one will.

 

[JonathanH]

If we get a March timetable it may bring some things back, hopefully the May one will.

Passenger numbers at peak time are going to have to increase significantly for 'things' to come back, because the service has been set around what can be provided by the fleet plan, and more services require more rolling stock.

I'd imagine the September timetable, which reflects some switches from the May set up, will increasingly be regarded as the 'new normal.

 

[PGAT]

Passenger numbers at peak time are going to have to increase significantly for 'things' to come back, because the service has been set around what can be provided by the fleet plan, and more services require more rolling stock.

I'd imagine the September timetable, which reflects some switches from the May set up, will increasingly be regarded as the 'new normal.

Well passenger numbers are around 80% pre-pandemic but I guarantee you the train services are definitely not living up to even 80% of 3 years ago.

However I do feel compelled to point out is that the 377s are currently under refurbishment which obviously means less will be able to run at one time. Maybe in March or May there will be enough units for an upgraded service.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Well passenger numbers are around 80% pre-pandemic but I guarantee you the train services are definitely not living up to even 80% of 3 years ago.

Not in the rush hour it isn't might be cosy Tues/Weds but it certainly isn't on other days such that I would have thought a Saturday service should now be provided Mondays and Fridays.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Not in the rush hour it isn't might be cosy Tues/Weds but it certainly isn't on other days such that I would have thought a Saturday service should now be provided Mondays and Fridays.

A Saturday service rarely caters for school/college flows which have returned 100% - some peak extra services especially in the AM peak have a dual purpose as both for commuters and students an example being the Shepperton to Waterloo via Twickenhama services.

The railway doesn’t have the planning/rostering resource to have a peak service some day and then on other days have a Saturday service with school trains added in but peak extras without. It also becomes a rostering nightmare.

 

[nw1]

A Saturday service rarely caters for school/college flows which have returned 100% - some peak extra services especially in the AM peak have a dual purpose as both for commuters and students an example being the Shepperton to Waterloo via Twickenhama services.

Though generally services at school time, certainly in the afternoon (between 1530-1630 or so) have in my experience followed the off-peak pattern, albeit with extra stops and slight timing differences (one example from my day was the 15xx Waterloo-Portsmouth semi-fast calling additionally at Milford and Witley to serve Godalming College students, of which there were many).

In my time on the railway, including school commuting for most of the 80s, there were few 'school/college peak extras' in the afternoon - unlike on the buses where they are very common. In the morning of course the school/college peak coincides with the main London commuter peak anyway.

However back to the original point, I don't think we should go all-out and turn Mon or Fri into a Saturday service. All-week commuting might come back, particularly once out of the economic crisis, and many people still have to commute on Mon or Fri anyway because their jobs require it. And you could always run a Mon-Fri service on a Fri with some late-peak services marked 'FX', and some additionals to the normal pattern pre-peak, to reflect people finishing work earlier on a Friday or going away for the weeked.

 

[387star]

All ties into the big 387 debacle. I think too much assumption was made that the 387 cascade was going to happen and solve the gaping hole that the 455 demise has left. The West London Line is severely overcrowded now, 4 car units with majority table seating is just terrible. I’m not particularly familiar with 387s but I gather there are less tables which would have made them ideal. But, I digress. The driver [route knowledge] deficit will hopefully be getting addressed as with less trains in the timetable to cover the more time there should be to address the training deficit. However, we are in for a rough few months until whenever this timetable (at least) runs out.

Some /1s are high density but I'm not sure how many extra seats? Presume no first class on this route... is that made clear?

 

[JonathanH]

Presume no first class on this route... is that made clear?

The Watford Junction to Clapham Junction service has advertised first class.

I'm a little surprised they didn't put the 377/7s back on the route, with some 8-car vs 10-car elsewhere, but perhaps the number of 5-377 for 8-455 switches necessitated the 377/7s being prioritised for those workings.

 

[PGAT]

The Watford Junction to Clapham Junction service has advertised first class.

I'm a little surprised they didn't put the 377/7s back on the route, with some 8-car vs 10-car elsewhere, but perhaps the number of 5-377 for 8-455 switches necessitated the 377/7s being prioritised for those workings.

Southern have been taking complaint tweets onboard (if you pardon the pun) and with the new timetable they have axed the LBG-ECR, so single 377/6 and 377/7s won’t be running on metro routes very frequently anymore

 

[fkofilee]

Rewinding back here - I will still have to deal with the 313s until May 2023? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

[Bishopstone]

Still a few middle of the day Eastbourne and Littlehampton services missing as well in September and December. I wonder if anyone is missing them.

Which middle of the day Eastbourne services are you seeing as missing in September? It looks to be back to 2tph throughout (M-F), to me.

 

[JonathanH]

Which middle of the day Eastbourne services are you seeing as missing in September? It looks to be back to 2tph throughout (M-F), to me.

Yes, that is right - I overlooked that as they are back to missing in the December timetable.

There is a missing up service from Eastbourne at 0905 though in the September timetable by the looks of things.

 

[Class 466]

Southern have been taking complaint tweets onboard (if you pardon the pun) and with the new timetable they have axed the LBG-ECR, so single 377/6 and 377/7s won’t be running on metro routes very frequently anymore

Except for the 2H & 2J services. So still pretty frequently.

 

[PGAT]

Except for the 2H & 2J services. So still pretty frequently.

The 2H and 2J use the same bit of track between TUH and LBG increasing to 4tph for most of the day, so it’s a net bonus

 

[nw1]

Rewinding back here - I will still have to deal with the 313s until May 2023? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Better 313s than nothing, and even worse overcrowding and more frequent cancellations due to stock shortages, surely.

 

[JonathanH]

Better 313s than nothing, and even worse overcrowding and more frequent cancellations due to stock shortages, surely.

Not quite if four car 377s could be released to replace the three car 313s by lopping the peak services into London that continue to have spare capacity.

I appreciate that some time needs to be given to see if there is capacity once the September timetable beds in.

 

[Class 466]

Not quite if four car 377s could be released to replace the three car 313s by lopping the peak services into London that continue to have spare capacity.

I appreciate that some time needs to be given to see if there is capacity once the September timetable beds in.

There really aren't another 12 377/4 diagrams that could be moved down to replace 313s right now. Hence why 313s are staying until May.

 

[nw1]

Not quite if four car 377s could be released to replace the three car 313s by lopping the peak services into London that continue to have spare capacity.

I appreciate that some time needs to be given to see if there is capacity once the September timetable beds in.

To be honest I'd say it's better to run with more capacity than needed rather than less, and if the 313s can be kept going for longer, they should, given Southern's chronic stock shortage and timetable cuts (much discussed in this thread).

Taking 377s off peak services might be ok for a quiet Monday or Friday in August, but on a busy Tuesday or Wednesday (given comments elsewhere about mid-week commuting) in say March or May might be a problem. It also gives the services no room for manoeuvre if there's a busy day for whatever reason.

And peak services formed of 4-car 377s have to be either 4, 8 or 12 cars. So a 12-car peak service which has 9 cars worth of passengers might "look" quiet at the country end, but those 12 cars are still needed because 8 will not provide the capacity - unless the diagrams are significantly re-jigged to have more 3-car 377s on London peak services. But I doubt there are enough 3-cars to do this with every peak service where 12 cars is deemed excessive but 8 insufficient.

BR had the right idea with the 2HAP, 2EPB, 456 and 466. Those two-car units allowed a closer match of required to actual capacity as they permitted services formed of any even number from 2 to 12* as required - and if say an 8VEP was insufficient but a 12VEP excessive they could have solved it by bolting a HAP on the front or back, as the SWD and NSE habitually did in the 80s.

(*or the platform length on that route, if shorter than 12)

 

[PGAT]

But I doubt there are enough 3-car 377s to do this with every peak service where 12 cars is deemed excessive but 8 insufficient.

You could take the 377/3s from the 1K and 2K services, which are significantly empty off-peak, but the trouble is they become very busy during the peak so those units would need to be returned during then, ruining the entire purpose. Other than that, I don’t know any other routes with those units apart from RDH-TBG which could very easily swap the 2 377/3s for a longer 4 coach train.

 

[Minstral25]

Capacity is a balance - the changes are apparently to make sure most services are longer where needed. So most services should be a minimum of 8 car, except via Tulse Hill to East Croydon/Beckenham Junction where some 5-car will run. I do not know what loading is like on those services via Tulse Hill.

The issue is income is down significantly as are peak passengers but overall passengers around 90% pre Covid, so Southern have a complex balancing act to do, cutting costs where they can. Hence why run a 8 car unit all the way to Caterham to provide a 4tph service that is hardly used when 2tph could be terminated at East Croydon and save a number of units to strengthen other services. Same with off-peak to Epsom - why run 4tph half to Epsom, half to Dorking when you could run 2tph, the intermediate stations with reduced service also have Thameslink calling so still get 4tph. Same with Sydenham stations where all will still have 4tph minimum with Overground service (Most 8tph).

Cutting costs is why the 455's went, less specialist crew training and specialised spares to carry. By cutting trains on the edges costs are cut to enable continued running of the bulk of services.

It will be interesting to see what "Short" services are still operating and where overcrowding actually happens. I'm sure new iterations in December (or more likely May 23) will try and cover any problem areas.

As for Redhill - Tonbridge - not sure if there is any need for 4 car trains based on normal loadings. I'm not sure anyone would want to see a 4 car being swapped for a 3 car on metro routes either.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Capacity is a balance - the changes are apparently to make sure most services are longer where needed. So most services should be a minimum of 8 car, except via Tulse Hill to East Croydon/Beckenham Junction where some 5-car will run. I do not know what loading is like on those services via Tulse Hill.

The issue is income is down significantly as are peak passengers but overall passengers around 90% pre Covid, so Southern have a complex balancing act to do, cutting costs where they can. Hence why run a 8 car unit all the way to Caterham to provide a 4tph service that is hardly used when 2tph could be terminated at East Croydon and save a number of units to strengthen other services. Same with off-peak to Epsom - why run 4tph half to Epsom, half to Dorking when you could run 2tph, the intermediate stations with reduced service also have Thameslink calling so still get 4tph. Same with Sydenham stations where all will still have 4tph minimum with Overground service (Most 8tph).

Cutting costs is why the 455's went, less specialist crew training and specialised spares to carry. By cutting trains on the edges costs are cut to enable continued running of the bulk of services.

It will be interesting to see what "Short" services are still operating and where overcrowding actually happens. I'm sure new iterations in December (or more likely May 23) will try and cover any problem areas.

As for Redhill - Tonbridge - not sure if there is any need for 4 car trains based on normal loadings. I'm not sure anyone would want to see a 4 car being swapped for a 3 car on metro routes either.

Southern have got back the GX 387/2's but I hope they aren't just going to be used to turn the GX badged services into 12 cars of fresh air rather than 8.

 

[PGAT]

I do not know what loading is like on those services via Tulse Hill.

Those trains are absolutely rammed during the peak hours, almost impossible to board after Tulse Hill. It might be more bearable if the Purley-Caterham passengers take their alternative fast trains and the 2tph to Beckenham Junction returns. There’s also one extra train an hour between Streatham Common and Selhurst to East Croydon which might relieve some overcrowding in that direction.