Speed through gatelines

[island]

This is just bad app design.

My app for a supermarket in Germany suggests a bunch of money off coupons to me, I enable those I want on the app, and the app then generates a single "super" QR code to show at the till for all the coupons at once. Simples.

Tesco and Lidl have the same or equivalent functionality.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I have posted about this issue before. If TOCs would allow people to write E tickets to smartcards as well as the PDF, with a form of reuse protection, you'd save a hell of a lot of bunching at the gateline.
Lots of bus companies do this, and I believe the Northern app does too.

 

[owidoe]

I have posted about this issue before. If TOCs would allow people to write E tickets to smartcards as well as the PDF, with a form of reuse protection, you'd save a hell of a lot of bunching at the gateline.
Lots of bus companies do this, and I believe the Northern app does too.

And of course smartcards were obsolete the minute NFC stopped being a premium feature on phones. Boggles the mind that not one single operator has realised this, and the likes of GWR keep trying to push ITSO as some new space-age technology.

 

[najaB]

And of course smartcards were obsolete the minute NFC stopped being a premium feature on phones

Never had to worry about the battery level of my smart card. Just saying.

 

[zero]

If the bus driver is on the ball, using a two pound coin can be faster than card, even if it's tap on tap off (where you don't need to talk to the driver)

On London buses phones seem to not work on the first try very often.

The Hong Kong Octopus + MTR turnstile is still the most efficient card/reader/gate combo in my experience, with some Japanese systems coming close, although I haven't been to Japan since 2016 so there may have been improvements.

 

[ModernRailways]

Never had to worry about the battery level of my smart card. Just saying.

Worth noting that with an iPhone if you're using express transit, even if the phone battery dies, you can still use your card to pay for transport. I've often ran out of battery whilst in London, but the phone will still allow me to pay for my travel. It doesn't need to authenticate or anything, you just tap and it works.

 

[crablab]

Boggles the mind that not one single operator has realised this, and the likes of GWR keep trying to push ITSO as some new space-age technology.

ITSO on Mobile is a thing.

 

[najaB]

Worth noting that with an iPhone if you're using express transit, even if the phone battery dies, you can still use your card to pay for transport.

That doesn't appear to be entirely true. To quote from Apple's website:

You may be able to use your Express Mode cards, passes and keys on your iPhone even when your device needs to be charged. With compatible iPhone models, you may be able to use power reserve with some cards, passes and keys that have Express Mode turned on for up to 5 hours when your iPhone needs to be charged.

It reads as that you can use Express Mode when the battery is too low to run the phone, but that's not unlimited or guaranteed - I count two 'mays' and an 'up to' in that claim.

 

[jon0844]

The first generation Aztec code readers are quite temperamental and slow, but the newer ones (white light, not red) are lightning fast and seem able to read a code from almost any distance/angle/screen brightness.

Sadly gates with the older readers aren't likely to get them upgraded anytime soon.

 

[ModernRailways]

That doesn't appear to be entirely true. To quote from Apple's website:

It reads as that you can use Express Mode when the battery is too low to run the phone, but that's not unlimited or guaranteed - I count two 'mays' and an 'up to' in that claim.

Yes, that's how it works, it still needs some level of power but the phone itself is basically dead and you can't access any functions. But the point being that the chances of you being without some way of charging your phone for ~6 hours is going to be incredibly small, especially if using public transport, and (most likely) in a city.

 

[jon81uk]

On London buses phones seem to not work on the first try very often.

I think the extra layer of plastic added to seal the driver in for covid reasons causes a lot of issues as the touch pad isn’t exactly up against the film.

 

[zero]

I think the extra layer of plastic added to seal the driver in for covid reasons causes a lot of issues as the touch pad isn’t exactly up against the film.

Yes, it causes problems with oysters and bank cards too, I don't know why they haven't removed that plastic on so many buses after so long.

 

[LYuen]

I have posted about this issue before. If TOCs would allow people to write E tickets to smartcards as well as the PDF, with a form of reuse protection, you'd save a hell of a lot of bunching at the gateline.
Lots of bus companies do this, and I believe the Northern app does too.

The Japanese transport IC cards (equivalent to an Oyster Card which you can top up and travel PAYG) are still the best to date.
Each railway company, no matter it is JR or a coalition between regional private railway companies, their cards are more or less intercompatible.
When people buy a Shinkansen (i.e. high-speed intercity train) ticket online, they can download it to any IC card linked to the account.

Typically a Shinkansen ticket includes a local connection for free (like the London terminals or station cluster concept). So you can simply tap in and travel from the local station to the Shinkansen station, then use the transfer gate at the Shinkansen station to enter the Shinkansen platform. Since the gate can read the Shinkansen ticket stored in the IC card, it will not deduct the value from the card. You can conveniently use the same card you would be using for local trains. The ticket gate can sort out all the calculations for you.

 

[AM9]

And of course smartcards were obsolete the minute NFC stopped being a premium feature on phones. Boggles the mind that not one single operator has realised this, and the likes of GWR keep trying to push ITSO as some new space-age technology.

Not sure what you mean there. If NFC became common on new phones, that doesn't mean that every phone immedicately had the facility, - not everybody rushes to change their phone when the manufacturers release their latest gadget laden model.

 

[najaB]

But the point being that the chances of you being without some way of charging your phone for ~6 hours is going to be incredibly small, especially if using public transport, and (most likely) in a city.

They might be small, but the chance of my smartcard having a flat battery is exactly zero.

 

[AlastairFraser]

And of course smartcards were obsolete the minute NFC stopped being a premium feature on phones. Boggles the mind that not one single operator has realised this, and the likes of GWR keep trying to push ITSO as some new space-age technology.

I wouldn't say smartcards are obsolete. They are simpler to use and load than smartphone apps.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I wouldn't say smartcards are obsolete. They are simpler to use and load than smartphone apps.

Boarding London buses has definitely slowed down since paying with a phone got more common. I'm not sure that people using a bank card rather than an Oyster makes so much difference.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Boarding London buses has definitely slowed down since paying with a phone got more common. I'm not sure that people using a bank card rather than an Oyster makes so much difference.

Yes, because it's the same action and similar process in London at least to use a physical contactless card compared to an Oyster, right?

 

[davews]

Not sure what you mean there. If NFC became common on new phones, that doesn't mean that every phone immedicately had the facility, - not everybody rushes to change their phone when the manufacturers release their latest gadget laden model.

My one year old Nokia C21 doesn't have NFC, it is far from as universal as some are suggesting.

 

[AM9]

My one year old Nokia C21 doesn't have NFC, it is far from as universal as some are suggesting.

Every time ticket automation is discussed here there are those who claim that phone payments and their use for ticket validation is universal, (presumably because they can do it). Rail travel is a public service, not a niche activity like using a gym or visiting an event.

 

[Mountain Man]

It's people that go right up to the gateline, stop dead, then get their phone out and find the relevant app/ticket.

Phone in hand, ticket on the screen, brightness up well in advance, I'm through just as quickly as a paper ticket.

But the overall time you are spending is longer. Paper tickets have that incredible advantage of not needing to navigate to on a phone, nor need to increase screen brightness for.

 

[alistairlees]

Some actual data from a survey of about 8,000 people by a TOC at three gatelines in early 2023:

Time taken to pass through gateline:
Oyster - 2.2 seconds
Contactless (card or mobile) - 2.4 seconds
Barcode (eTicket on a phone) - 3.6 seconds
CCST - 3.9 seconds
PRT / printed eTicket - 4.8 seconds

PRT only had a first time success rate of 73%; Oyster of 95% (Contactless was 96%); and barcode on a phone 86%

 

[Mountain Man]

Some actual data from a survey of about 8,000 people by a TOC at three gatelines in early 2023:

Time taken to pass through gateline:
Oyster - 2.2 seconds
Contactless (card or mobile) - 2.4 seconds
Barcode (eTicket on a phone) - 3.6 seconds
CCST - 3.9 seconds
PRT / printed eTicket - 4.8 seconds

PRT only had a first time success rate of 73%; Oyster of 95% (Contactless was 96%); and barcode on a phone 86%

Gateline speed is only a portion of the time for the activity though. You may get through the gateline quicker but you may spend longer getting ready to go through so overall it takes you longer.

 

[AM9]

Some actual data from a survey of about 8,000 people by a TOC at three gatelines in early 2023:

Time taken to pass through gateline:
Oyster - 2.2 seconds
Contactless (card or mobile) - 2.4 seconds
Barcode (eTicket on a phone) - 3.6 seconds
CCST - 3.9 seconds
PRT / printed eTicket - 4.8 seconds

PRT only had a first time success rate of 73%; Oyster of 95% (Contactless was 96%); and barcode on a phone 86%

It would be more meaningful if the TOC and which station's gateline(s) were involved was publicised. Also, at what time(s) of day the measurements were made.
St Albans has two of the busiest gatelines outside the London zones and my observations are that those who use phones for their tickets are fiddling with them as they walk across the footbridge and along the platform. I normally have a CCST which I can take from a card wallett without even looking at it, (I always put it in front of my ENCTS pass). Any sorting out, e.g. outbound tickets/other cards, is done on the train and the ticket doesn't need any screen tapping because the screen has gone to sleep, or the lock has kicked in after 30 seconds! Contactless, would also be much quicker as that can be accessed without digging around. My phone is still there, ready for calls, surfing, listening to radio etc., but none of that gets in the way of passing through a gateline.

 

[cf111]

I was quite rubbish at using the QR scanner things to begin with but now I know what I'm doing. The key is to have the app open as the train stops!

 

[alistairlees]

The survey looked at lots of aspects of gateline speed / throughput / success / failure, for example "fumble factor" (PRT was worst, again). The stations were large (one was a London Terminal). I simply present the findings; I'm not expecting that anyone whose life is based on an extrapolation of their own anecdotes, rather than actual data, is going to change their views, or stop repeating ther anecdotes!

 

[Dai Corner]

It would be more meaningful if the TOC and which station's gateline(s) were involved was publicised. Also, at what time(s) of day the measurements were made.
St Albans has two of the busiest gatelines outside the London zones and my observations are that those who use phones for their tickets are fiddling with them as they walk across the footbridge and along the platform. I normally have a CCST which I can take from a card wallett without even looking at it, (I always put it in front of my ENCTS pass). Any sorting out, e.g. outbound tickets/other cards, is done on the train and the ticket doesn't need any screen tapping because the screen has gone to sleep, or the lock has kicked in after 30 seconds! Contactless, would also be much quicker as that can be accessed without digging around. My phone is still there, ready for calls, surfing, listening to radio etc., but none of that gets in the way of passing through a gateline.

Does it matter whether the preparation is done on the train or during the walk between train and gate?

 

[crablab]

PRT only had a first time success rate of 73%; Oyster of 95% (Contactless was 96%); and barcode on a phone 86%

Interesting - I wonder if that's because scanning optical codes is now more intuitive than magstripe to most people?
It's still not great that optical is below 90% - I can see why TfL wouldn't be keen.

Anecdotally: I've certainly seen people very confused as to how a CCST should be used. Including trying to 'tap' it on the contactless interface!

 

[Mountain Man]

Interesting - I wonder if that's because scanning optical codes is now more intuitive than magstripe to most people?
It's still not great that optical is below 90% - I can see why TfL wouldn't be keen.

Anecdotally: I've certainly seen people very confused as to how a CCST should be used. Including trying to 'tap' it on the contactless interface!

More likely that an optical code isn't affected by a magnet in a phone case which a lot of people, especially men use to hold cards and tickets in

 

[AM9]

Does it matter whether the preparation is done on the train or during the walk between train and gate?

Very much so, those fumbling with their phones whilst walking along platforms or up and down very crowded footbridge steps are a hazard both to themselves and others as bodies that are paying insufficient attention to their progress and that of others around them. It's yet another cause of obstruction by mobile use.