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Spelling and Americanisms
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WestCoast
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English has weak phoneme-grapheme correspondence, as 26 graphemes (letters) correspond to 44 phonemes (sounds). That's before regional accents and so on complicate the issue further. As native speakers, you often don't notice this. However, I am sure each member of this forum has encountered odd spellings. Children learning to write and those learning English as a foreign language quite often have significant problems with this. It's also the case that those learning English as a second language favour American English as it seems more logical to them.
Other languages such as German and Russian (among many others), have much stronger phoneme-grapheme correspondence than English. For example, in German as long as you know the basic rules, words usually have a spelling which is logical (i.e. as it sounds in speech to a trained ear).
Eagle is right in saying that "-ize" and "-ise" are both correct in British English, according to the Oxford English Dictionary. American English has adopted the former as standard spelling because it's a more logical correspondence with speech. The same is true of many Americanisms.
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Some would argue that we should use "sulfur" and not "sulphur" as which one is more logical? Certain languages have undergone a spelling reform and certain groups such as the Plain English Campaign argue that we should do the same with British English.
Other languages such as German and Russian (among many others), have much stronger phoneme-grapheme correspondence than English. For example, in German as long as you know the basic rules, words usually have a spelling which is logical (i.e. as it sounds in speech to a trained ear).
Eagle is right in saying that "-ize" and "-ise" are both correct in British English, according to the Oxford English Dictionary. American English has adopted the former as standard spelling because it's a more logical correspondence with speech. The same is true of many Americanisms.
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Some would argue that we should use "sulfur" and not "sulphur" as which one is more logical? Certain languages have undergone a spelling reform and certain groups such as the Plain English Campaign argue that we should do the same with British English.
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SS4
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I bet the Americans are saying the same about Aluminium
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Americanisms don't bother me that much, it's simple errors like misuse of your/you're et al
WestCoast
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Oh, also the people who constantly moan about Americans "ruining our language" (Daily Mail style) are just looking for something to complain about in my opinion. Nobody owns language, even if it's called English. Certain people in Britain seem to take for granted that so many people in the world can speak English to a high standard, hence why monolingualism in this country is rife.
Cruithne3753
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Schedule pronounced "skedule" irks me. I place the blame on too many American cop shows police dramas.
Don2912
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I'm right with you on that one, Old Timer.
The irritating term is everywhere; from lettering on the side of buses, even making an unwelcome appearance in news bulletins from the BBC (who, in my opinion, should know better).
Even the on-board stop announcement on TrentBarton's IGO service (voiced by none other than Anne Davies, from BBC's East Midlands Today) uses it.
Don
The irritating term is everywhere; from lettering on the side of buses, even making an unwelcome appearance in news bulletins from the BBC (who, in my opinion, should know better).
Even the on-board stop announcement on TrentBarton's IGO service (voiced by none other than Anne Davies, from BBC's East Midlands Today) uses it.
Don
DaveNewcastle
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Its very tempting to answer questions of language reform from a purely pragmatic and/or logical viewpoint.
Why not? If its easier, then lets do it!
But, as history tells us, the very considerable task in terms of actual work (in public, private and unstructured sectors), the cost, and the impact on archived material has generally led to language reforms only occuring when there is a strong political agenda at work. In other words, a state is unlikey to invest in the cost of a language reform unless it is associated with social change.
The 'Green Book' reform of Dutch in the 1940's didn't appear to have a political agenda at the time, but considering the relief felt by the Netherlands immediately after the end of WW2, perhaps distancing themselves further from Germany and its language was a welcome, and political, change?
States are good at seeking ways to manipulate their populace. And populations are good at finding ways to express themselves. Language reform is one way of making radical adjustments to a culture. We should all be very careful when tinkering with language!
Imagine how many internet searches might cease to work if there is an old and new spelling of 'the same word'? It ceases to be 'the same word'.
Lewis Carroll was making a serious point in 1871 when he wrote "‘When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.'"
Why not? If its easier, then lets do it!
But, as history tells us, the very considerable task in terms of actual work (in public, private and unstructured sectors), the cost, and the impact on archived material has generally led to language reforms only occuring when there is a strong political agenda at work. In other words, a state is unlikey to invest in the cost of a language reform unless it is associated with social change.
The 'Green Book' reform of Dutch in the 1940's didn't appear to have a political agenda at the time, but considering the relief felt by the Netherlands immediately after the end of WW2, perhaps distancing themselves further from Germany and its language was a welcome, and political, change?
States are good at seeking ways to manipulate their populace. And populations are good at finding ways to express themselves. Language reform is one way of making radical adjustments to a culture. We should all be very careful when tinkering with language!
Imagine how many internet searches might cease to work if there is an old and new spelling of 'the same word'? It ceases to be 'the same word'.
Lewis Carroll was making a serious point in 1871 when he wrote "‘When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.'"
43021HST
Established Member
Worse one is train tracks.
I hate it when peple put z on the end of words like bratz or even trainz to make them appeal to the kids.
Umm by the way 'berkshiretrainz' is named thus because its a compound word for, railway content vaguely to do with berkshire and the surrounding areas and content for the company trainz.
I'm surprised no ones mentioned 'chavspeak' yet which is almost unintelligble.
Wyvern
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I do hope she pronounces "Kedleston" properly.
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In any case there is a spread of "Far Eastern" English which is more than just a pidgin. How long before it spreads into our vocabulary?
Schnellzug
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May I enquire, quite neutrally, why people think this (and "train station") are American? They both seem quite natural expressions to me. Is it perhaps, like "Soccer", a false distinction used to try to make a point?
Minilad
Established Member
I too have never understood why people get in such a fluster about the use of Train Station. Its not as if the use of this would cause confusion when used. It seems as logical as Railway Station to me
STEVIEBOY1
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I too try not to say sweater or jumper, I use Jersey or Pullover. I agree too with those who dislike the hated words "Train Station", it just does not sound correct. When I was at school many many years ago, if we used American words or spelling the English master made us write out each of the offending words 100 times correctly. I think that everyone understands that Spell and grammar check is not always correct. (I hope I have not made any errors here)
Wyvern
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I have heard all four words used all my life from a time when language was not as mobile as it is now.
The word used may have varied across the country. We used either "jumper" or "pullover", the latter being sleeveless.
"Sweater" tended to refer to a fairly tight jumper as worn by a "sweater girl" in the films - not really respectable in our conservative neighbourhood. I remember asking, aged about three or four, why next-door's nanny had cushions in her jumper and being hastily shushed.
A "jersey" had connotations of the island of Jersey, much like a "Guernsey"
The word used may have varied across the country. We used either "jumper" or "pullover", the latter being sleeveless.
"Sweater" tended to refer to a fairly tight jumper as worn by a "sweater girl" in the films - not really respectable in our conservative neighbourhood. I remember asking, aged about three or four, why next-door's nanny had cushions in her jumper and being hastily shushed.
A "jersey" had connotations of the island of Jersey, much like a "Guernsey"
WestCoast
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Do you mean like, for example, Singlish or Singapore English slang? Yes, that's a sort of pidgin English way of speaking, but it's technically their local dialect. It's not acceptable for writing.
In Malta, some people code-switch when speaking, meaning that they often mix Maltese words with English words and sentence constructions. That sort of thing goes on all over the world.
Does it mean that it will catch on here? Personally, I doubt it. The one I have heard more commonly is Jamaican Patois, but that can be attributed to immigration and that has lead to its spread in certain communities.
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Eagle
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Having said that, Shakespeare had a few "your mother" jokes in his plays, so not everything changes.
STEVIEBOY1
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In this area, a pullover is long sleeved and a Slipover is sleeveless. I think the word jumper comes from a tight fitting garment that used to be worn in the Royal Navy. Agree with what you say about Jersey & Guernsey, these used to be knitted by the wives/mothers of fisherman and each had it's own design which rather sadly was used to identify these men if they were lost at sea. I understand something similar happend in the Aran Islands of the West Coast of Ireland and Fairisle in Scotland. I do own a Guernsey from Guernsey, it's navy blue, made from oiled wool and is very snug and warm.
WestCoast
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Absolutely, a fact many seem to ignore. If language did not evolve and develop because of many different influences, we would be speaking and writing a much earlier form of English.
Ivo
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What is a Guernsey anyway...?
WestCoast
Established Member
Indeed, some things stay the same. However, look at the word order, some of the vocabulary and style of expression, it's very different in some aspects to a modern piece.
Infact, I don't think British English has any major threats to its existence. Across many other European countries, there has been an influx of 'Englishisms' into local languages. DB has ignored the local language and has started naming facilities in its stations as "Service Point", "Lost & Found", "Call A Bike"! I can imagine things like that would cause a stir on this forum, if say a TOC started giving facilities Welsh only names! It's much worse than "train station" isn't it?
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Eagle
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theblackwatch
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I think by that you are actually referring to a 'tank top'!
The Colonel
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A pet hate of mine too. One of the others being power outages instead of a power cut. The local rag was full of "power outages" this week about a power cut in the town centre.
Wyvern
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A 'tank top' is a very modern name as far as I am aware. I'm not sure where it came from. Also I heard it first used for a sleeveless cotton vest worn as outerwear rather than underwear.
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I remember when the Research Division hosted a meeting of the UIC. Signs were put up all over the place in English, German and French.
I was particularly intrigued by "Car Park" "Parkplatz" and "Place du parking"
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THat brings back memories! When I was young, Fair Isle was all the rage. My Mum used to knit for the village shop to make some pin money. She could turn out two jumpers or four pairs of gloves a week, making it up as she went along without a pattern.
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I've read somewhere that its becoming more than a pidgin, but a respectable form of English over large parts of the Far East.
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theblackwatch
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I'm not sure what you mean by 'very modern', but it's been in use since at least the 1980s to refer to a jumper with its sleeves missing.
Wyvern
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