Splitting Advance Ticket for same train

[kel-green]

Hi, I have a couple of scenarios I would like clarifying about advance tickets:

(1) If you are travelling from A to C via B on the same train (which calls at B) and you buy two advanced tickets A to B and B to C. The train you are booked on gets cancelled from A to B, but still runs from B to C. You can use your A to B ticket on the next train as your train was cancelled, but what about you B to C ticket as that part of the train did actually run?

(2) You have brought the same tickets as in (1) and the whole train gets cancelled. You leave A on the next train, but between B to C, there is another train operating by the same TOC between the cancelled train and the train you are on. Would your B to C ticket still be valid as you are on the train after the next train to the cancelled one?

Thanks

 

[MikeWh]

Hi, I have a couple of scenarios I would like clarifying about advance tickets:

(1) If you are travelling from A to C via B on the same train (which calls at B) and you buy two advanced tickets A to B and B to C. The train you are booked on gets cancelled from A to B, but still runs from B to C. You can use your A to B ticket on the next train as your train was cancelled, but what about you B to C ticket as that part of the train did actually run?

(2) You have brought the same tickets as in (1) and the whole train gets cancelled. You leave A on the next train, but between B to C, there is another train operating by the same TOC between the cancelled train and the train you are on. Would your B to C ticket still be valid as you are on the train after the next train to the cancelled one?

Thanks

Your journey is covered by two tickets so it is unreasonable to expect you to use the second ticket if the first ticket failed to get you to the change point. As long as you get to A in time for the train as advertised you will be carried on the next available train(s) for the whole of your journey. Usually that should be by the same TOC, although if that causes an unreasonable wait then other arrangements may be made.

 

[yorkie]

You may use two or more tickets for one journey. This is known as "split ticketing", and this right is stated under Condition 19 of the NRCoC.

If your train is cancelled, you take the next available train. If it's not immediately obvious what that train should be (e.g. there are multiple operators/routes), seek advice from railway staff, as discretion to catch a train by a different company/route might be given.

Although Advance tickets are only valid on the booked train, the terms do state that if delays occur while travelling you will be able to take the next train. It would clearly not be appropriate to have a ticket type that did not permit the customer to take a later train in such an event.

Here's an extract from our Fares Guide:

1.1.3.1.2 Delays while travelling

In normal circumstances, Advance tickets are only valid on the booked train(s). However if delays occur while travelling, either

• on the rail journey, or,
• only in the case where the Advance ticket is a through ticket covering the entire journey, on a connecting journey by other means of public transport (e.g. Underground, bus or ferry),

you will be allowed to complete your journey on later trains.
However the train company or route restriction shown under Route on the ticket still applies, e.g. for a ticket routed TOC ONLY you must wait for the next train operated by the train company indicated, even if this increases the length of the delay further.

Another common question is:

I am combining tickets; am I covered in the event of a delay?​

As long as you have allowed the minimum connection time at the station where you are combining tickets, then this is treated as a valid through journey and the same conditions apply as above, i.e. in the event of a delay you may take later trains in compliance with the route or train company restriction shown on your ticket.
​

This section attempts to cover all basic validity issues that passengers encounter with Advance tickets. For further reading, the Advance Fares Frequently Asked Questions document attached to this post might prove interesting. This is reproduced with permission from The Manual (the official source of retail information for rail industry staff). It also includes information regarding discounted fares, excess and upgrades that is covered in more detail in [thread=68553]Section 6[/thread] and [thread=70374]Section 4[/thread] respectively.

 

[najaB]

Although Advance tickets are only valid on the booked train, the terms do state that if delays occur while travelling you will be able to take the next train. It would clearly not be appropriate to have a ticket type that did not permit the customer to take a later train in such an event.

As I read it, you are saying that the TOC should accept the tickets for the B to C portion of the journey. While I'm delighted if this is the case, I can't see why they should do it (other than good customer service, of course). Split ticketing means that you have two separate contracts with the TOC(s) concerned - one for transport between A to B (with a specified departure time) and another for transport from B to C (with a specified departure time).

Let's assume that the tickets are booked with two different TOCs. I totally agree that the first TOC is still liable to transport the passenger from A to B when the booked train is cancelled, however why should the second TOC be forced to transport the passenger from B to C when, as far as they are concerned, the passenger has missed the booked departure time for reasons outside their control? I would have thought this was one of the risks you assume when booking spliit tickets.

How is it any different to the situation where another passenger misses the train because they slept in?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

As I read it, you are saying that the TOC should accept the tickets for the B to C portion of the journey. While I'm delighted if this is the case, I can't see why they should do it (other than good customer service, of course). Split ticketing means that you have two separate contracts with the TOC(s) concerned - one for transport between A to B (with a specified departure time) and another for transport from B to C (with a specified departure time).

Let's assume that the tickets are booked with two different TOCs. I totally agree that the first TOC is still liable to transport the passenger from A to B when the booked train is cancelled, however why should the second TOC be forced to transport the passenger from B to C when, as far as they are concerned, the passenger has missed the booked departure time for reasons outside their control? I would have thought this was one of the risks you assume when booking spliit tickets.

How is it any different to the situation where another passenger misses the train because they slept in?

Before ATOC issued it's Advance Tickets FAQ to staff, this situation could have been rather messy, but the FAQs specifically state that if a passenger misses a booked connection because of a previously delayed TOC service, the passenger my use the next available service, regardless of using split tickets or a through ticket.

The difference is that it is the railway that would be delaying the passenger.

It would be fair to say that before the FAQs, I was one of those who believed the railway didn't have to allow later travel because of the conditions of issue, I recall some lengthy discussions about it, but it is in black and white now.

 

[najaB]

Before ATOC issued it's Advance Tickets FAQ to staff, this situation could have been rather messy, but the FAQs specifically state that if a passenger misses a booked connection because of a previously delayed TOC service, the passenger my use the next available service, regardless of using split tickets or a through ticket.

Thanks. I wasn't aware that it was specifically permitted. It's a good day when you learn something new.

 

[bb21]

Now the question is, if the station dwell time for that service is under the minimum connection time, is it still a valid connection?

I would like to think that it still is, as this would have been a guaranteed connection under normal circumstances, but there is nothing to say for definite either way.

 

[najaB]

Now the question is, if the station dwell time for that service is under the minimum connection time, is it still a valid connection?

Ooh... that is evil!

 

[Romilly]

I would want to argue that what happens at station B is not, in any meaningful sense, a "connection".

 

[Merseysider]

I would want to argue that what happens at station B is not, in any meaningful sense, a "connection".

I would agree, as connection times apply only when changing trains as far as I am aware

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Now the question is, if the station dwell time for that service is under the minimum connection time, is it still a valid connection?

I would like to think that it still is, as this would have been a guaranteed connection under normal circumstances, but there is nothing to say for definite either way.

The FAQs note that minimum connection times apply when actually changing trains, though it is more specific to changing TOCs at the same time, so I guess, in effect, what you are asking is "Is staying on the same train at a station a valid connection for a through ticket?"

 

[najaB]

"Is staying on the same train at a station a valid connection for a through ticket?"

Let's say that it's not timetabled as a through train, but runs from A to B, has a 6 minute booked dwell time at station B (which has a 10 minute connection time) and then continues to C. The train is cancelled between A and B, but runs from B to C departing at its booked time.

The passenger manages to get another train from A that gets to B just in time to see the original train disappearing into the distance.

It's 60 minutes until the next train to C, is he entitled to Delay Repay? Could the train company say 'No' as he didn't have a valid connection?

 

[yorkie]

As I read it, you are saying that the TOC should accept the tickets for the B to C portion of the journey.

All tickets for the journey remain valid for the journey.

While I'm delighted if this is the case, I can't see why they should do it (other than good customer service, of course). Split ticketing means that you have two separate contracts with the TOC(s) concerned - one for transport between A to B (with a specified departure time) and another for transport from B to C (with a specified departure time).

There are two contracts, but a failing by the rail industry to adhere to the first contract doesn't mean the passenger is liable for a failing in the second contract! Also each contract is subject to the NRCoC which states that two or more tickets may be combined for one journey. The T&Cs also state that if delays occur, you are entitled to take the next train to complete your journey. This is all very clear, but just in case it isn't, see and the PDF extract from the internal Knowledgebase contained within our Fares Guide - 1.1.3 Advance tickets

Let's assume that the tickets are booked with two different TOCs. I totally agree that the first TOC is still liable to transport the passenger from A to B when the booked train is cancelled, however why should the second TOC be forced to transport the passenger from B to C when, as far as they are concerned, the passenger has missed the booked departure time for reasons outside their control? I would have thought this was one of the risks you assume when booking spliit tickets.

If the second TOC does not want to adhere to the NRCoC, then they are in breach of the terms of their franchise. (If they're open access, then they will immediately cease to be viable if they opt out of the NRCoC, and therefore forfeit any revenues from inter-available ticket sales).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks. I wasn't aware that it was specifically permitted. It's a good day when you learn something new.

You can make every day, for the next few days/weeks, a good day by reading, but by bit, our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Let's say that it's not timetabled as a through train, but runs from A to B, has a 6 minute booked dwell time at station B (which has a 10 minute connection time) and then continues to C. The train is cancelled between A and B, but runs from B to C departing at its booked time.

The passenger manages to get another train from A that gets to B just in time to see the original train disappearing into the distance.

It's 60 minutes until the next train to C, is he entitled to Delay Repay? Could the train company say 'No' as he didn't have a valid connection?

I don't understand the question.

If it's a connection, ie it requires a change of train, then the minimum connection times are what you need to adhere to (irrespective of what stock is diagrammed to form the next train; let's not confuse things with internal rail industry matters). Simple as that.

If it's advertise anywhere as a through train, clearly all talk of "connections" is irrelevant.

A passenger is entitled to delay compensation if their journey is delayed into their destination by a qualifying length of time.

Please, no more algebra questions!

 

[najaB]

I don't understand the question.

Even in your confusion you've answered the question and confirmed what I thought was correct. By timetabling it as two separate services, it doesn't matter than the stock makes a through journey.

Please, no more algebra questions!

A train leaves Newcastle at 10am travelling at 75mph....

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . A train leaves Newcastle at 10am travelling at 75mph....

Ah, now you might just be on to something (inadvertently, I guess), though this example DOES involve changing trains.

Every weekday morning in Newcastle, the southbound stopping service to London leaves 9 minutes before the non-stop Flying Scotsman (which passes it and 2 other EC services on its way south). Now, lets suppose that you bought 2 Advance tickets, one from Berwick to Newcastle on the stopper (it starts there, not at Edin) and one from Newcastle to London, knowing that you'd have to get off and change on the same platform at Newcastle, to get to London on the Flyer sooner than if you'd remained on the stopper.
And then, lets suppose that there is a technical problem (as happened last Friday) and the stopper gets looped to let the Flyer pass before it gets to Newcastle.
You have a real 'connection' to make, you have a delay to your incoming service, you have less than the minimum connection time, and your connection is delayed.

In practice, I am in no doubt that all EC staff would ensure that your combination of tickets were honoured on the next, 7:29, service. The only looser would be you, the passenger, because you'd arrive late in London (unless you knew what was happening and simply stayed on board - after confirming with the Guard, of course).

 

[yorkie]

...In practice, I am in no doubt that all EC staff would ensure that your combination of tickets were honoured on the next, 7:29, service....

I agree, except I am not sure about all... almost all?

 

[kel-green]

Sometimes you may want to split an advance ticket for one train at a calling station - you are not intending to change train/TOC during your journey.

Say you want to travel from A to C on train X which also calls at an intermediate station B. You buy two advance tickets: A-B and B-C. What would happen in the following situations:

1. If train X is cancelled and the next train by the same TOC departing from A also goes to C, but does not call at B, are your tickets valid or do you need to wait until you can go on a route by that TOC that either calls at or involves a change at B?

2. If train X is cancelled and the next train (train Y) by the same TOC departing from A calls at both B and C, is your B-C ticket valid on this train if there is another train from B to C between train X and train Y (i.e. you are not on the next train by the TOC for the B to C part)?

3. Train X gets cancelled between A and B, but runs between B and C. You get the next train by the same TOC from A to B (which also happens to continue to C). Is your B-C ticket valid on this later train?

 

[PG]

To avoid any more algebra in this thread I'll use actual trains...
(Also if Mods think I've posted this in the wrong place I apologise just it seemed to tie in with it)

My situation is that last Monday (19/1/15) I had an Advance from Edinburgh to Ely departing at 1130 with a scheduled arrival of 1613.
I was aware of disruption to services between Perth and Inverness due to snow the previous evening and that the first train I was booked on was the southbound Highland Chieftain which departs Inverness at 0755.
I thus checked on the EastCoast website at around 0900 for any disruptions, only to see that the 0755 had been cancelled throughout. National Rail Enquiries website also showed it as cancelled with the advice being to use alternative departures, the next one being the 1200 from Edinburgh.

I decided it was pointless to rock up in time to get the non-existent 1130 departure so arrived at 1140 in time to get the 1200. At some time between me checking the websites and 1130 the Highland Chieftain was reinstated to commence from Edinburgh at 1130.
I thus missed the scheduled departure of the first train on my advance ticket so was in breach of this bit of The Manual :

Conditions of use
You must be at the departure station shown on your ticket in good time to catch the train. If you miss the first train on which you are booked for any reason, a new ticket must be purchased.

However luckily I was permitted to use my ticket on the 1200 departure, which actually departed some 20 minutes late at 1220. I arrived at Ely at 1652 ie 39 minutes later than scheduled had I caught the 1130 from Edinburgh.


I wasn't at the departure station in good time to catch the first train though this was because, going by the latest information available to me, the TOC ie East Coast had cancelled the train completely.

My question is - is it reasonable to or am I entitled to claim delay repay?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Sometimes you may want to split an advance ticket for one train at a calling station - you are not intending to change train/TOC during your journey.

Say you want to travel from A to C on train X which also calls at an intermediate station B. You buy two advance tickets: A-B and B-C. What would happen in the following situations:

1. If train X is cancelled and the next train by the same TOC departing from A also goes to C, but does not call at B, are your tickets valid or do you need to wait until you can go on a route by that TOC that either calls at or involves a change at B?

I suspect discretion would play any part in allowing travel on later services and so I think you would be unlucky if you were refused travel on the non-stop train.

2. If train X is cancelled and the next train (train Y) by the same TOC departing from A calls at both B and C, is your B-C ticket valid on this train if there is another train from B to C between train X and train Y (i.e. you are not on the next train by the TOC for the B to C part)?

Of course, you can't get on a train that it is impossible to catch.

3. Train X gets cancelled between A and B, but runs between B and C. You get the next train by the same TOC from A to B (which also happens to continue to C). Is your B-C ticket valid on this later train?

You were delayed by the railway, therefore you can use the next available service.

....I wasn't at the departure station in good time to catch the first train though this was because, going by the latest information available to me, the TOC ie East Coast had cancelled the train completely.

My question is - is it reasonable to or am I entitled to claim delay repay?

Ah, the wonders of modern technology. The scenario is not in any documents I have seen, however, I would say that claiming Delay Repay, when you made a decision not to be at the station in time, is bad form, in much the same way as not knowing about a cancellation, arriving too late for the booked train, discovering it was cancelled, taking the next available train on the Advance ticket and then claiming delay repay would be.

 

[londonbridge]

If your train is cancelled, you take the next available train. If it's not immediately obvious what that train should be (e.g. there are multiple operators/routes), seek advice from railway staff, as discretion to catch a train by a different company/route might be given.

Although Advance tickets are only valid on the booked train, the terms do state that if delays occur while travelling you will be able to take the next train. It would clearly not be appropriate to have a ticket type that did not permit the customer to take a later train in such an event.

I posted a thread on the entire day ("Grand Central Chaos"), but in summary, having watched a 12.45 kick-off, I headed back to Sunderland station for the 3.30 Grand Central back to London, for which I had an advance ticket. It was cancelled and i was told to go to Newcastle and take the 4.30pm East Coast. I got to Central Station shortly before 3.55, there was an East Coast train at 4.00 but I was refused travel because the 4.30 was the service which East Coast had agreed to carry Grand Central passengers on. Can an agreement between TOCs override the NRCOC, or would I have had a case to insist on taking the 4.00pm since that constituted the "next train"?

 

[fairysdad]

Next semi-hypothetical question:

I realise it's not a worthwhile split (I've checked!) but say you are travelling between Exeter St Davids to London Paddington, and you've split at, say, Westbury.

You reach Taunton, and the message comes over the PA that due to a problem on the line, the train will now be travelling via Bristol instead. Oh no! you think. My ticket isn't valid anymore!

But is it? I would imagine that the TM would be understanding of the situation, and let you get on with it, but what is the legitimacy of such a situation?

(I know there are probably many more routes where such a situation would happen, but I went for one I knew about given that I've been on a train originally routed up the B&H but diverted via Bristol because of, I think, a broken-down train between Taunton and Castle Cary.)

 

[yorkie]

Sometimes you may want to split an advance ticket for one train at a calling station - you are not intending to change train/TOC during your journey.

Say you want to travel from A to C on train X which also calls at an intermediate station B. You buy two advance tickets: A-B and B-C. What would happen in the following situations:

1. If train X is cancelled and the next train by the same TOC departing from A also goes to C, but does not call at B, are your tickets valid or do you need to wait until you can go on a route by that TOC that either calls at or involves a change at B?

Definitely seek advice from staff.

It's likely that the Train Company concerned will want to reduce their Delay Repay liabilities, as well as minimise the impact of the cancellation, by allowing you to take a train that doesn't call at B. But they might not.

2. If train X is cancelled and the next train (train Y) by the same TOC departing from A calls at both B and C, is your B-C ticket valid on this train if there is another train from B to C between train X and train Y (i.e. you are not on the next train by the TOC for the B to C part)?

You should take the first available train towards your destination, if it is obvious (ie, same TOC, and the train calls at the "split" point).

If it is not obvious, then definitely seek advice from staff, as you may be able to take earlier trains to connect with the earlier train, if there is one.

3. Train X gets cancelled between A and B, but runs between B and C. You get the next train by the same TOC from A to B (which also happens to continue to C). Is your B-C ticket valid on this later train?

Of course, how could it not be?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You reach Taunton, and the message comes over the PA that due to a problem on the line, the train will now be travelling via Bristol instead. Oh no! you think. My ticket isn't valid anymore!

But is it?

It is valid.

From our Fares Guide:

...Any through train diverted from its usual route will count as a permitted route between the stations it is normally scheduled to call at......

A rail passenger is not liable for delays, cancellations, diversions to trains.

You must be thinking of the taxi industry In contrast, the railway compensates customers when delays occur, rather than penalising them!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I posted a thread on the entire day ("Grand Central Chaos"), but in summary, having watched a 12.45 kick-off, I headed back to Sunderland station for the 3.30 Grand Central back to London, for which I had an advance ticket. It was cancelled and i was told to go to Newcastle and take the 4.30pm East Coast. I got to Central Station shortly before 3.55, there was an East Coast train at 4.00 but I was refused travel because the 4.30 was the service which East Coast had agreed to carry Grand Central passengers on. Can an agreement between TOCs override the NRCOC, or would I have had a case to insist on taking the 4.00pm since that constituted the "next train"?

The NRCoC was written in a time when all routeings were geographic, none of this 'TOC specific' stuff, and no-one has really changed it since. The NRCoC says you have a contract with the company whose services you have a right to use, in this case Grand Central. Grand Central, therefore, have the obligation to get you to your destination and only if they cannot, could you argue that East Coast could (Condition 43), but they may still claim that they are not in a position to do so. Grand Central had obviously made an agreement with East Coast for you to travel on the 1630, so that is what you can use. I do not believe you have any 'right' to use the 1600.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I do not believe you have any 'right' to use the 1600.

Agreed, but as we know, ToC's can give you extra flexibility above what your rights are.

Unless the 1600 is normally more busy than the 1630 (which I doubt) it does seem weird from a passenger point of view that they would still have to wait.

In times of ticket acceptance, does the disrupted ToC pay the non disrupted one or something? (in which case I could understand that maybe Grand Central were only paying East Coast for the 1630). Otherwise it does seem somewhat silly to refuse travel (again from a passengers point of view).

 

[Merseysider]

Agreed, but as we know, ToC's can give you extra flexibility above what your rights are.

Unless the 1600 is normally more busy than the 1630 (which I doubt) it does seem weird from a passenger point of view that they would still have to wait.

In times of ticket acceptance, does the disrupted ToC pay the non disrupted one or something? (in which case I could understand that maybe Grand Central were only paying East Coast for the 1630). Otherwise it does seem somewhat silly to refuse travel (again from a passengers point of view).

It seems weird to me too. Surely if you had an influx of GC passengers you'd want to spread them out over a couple of services so no particular one was overcrowded / no-one gets left behind - especially at the 4-5pm time of day.