Starting sentences with 'So'

[J-2739]

Harbornite/ExRes - please don't turn this thread into a personal spat. Why not kiss and make up?

Oh dear, did I just end a sentence with a preposition? Perhaps it's an adverb in that context.

Oh no, now you've given 'em an idea!!

(this is called local slang, Grammar Nazis)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The recent use of 'So' at the start of a sentence reminds me of the similar use by Shakespeare of 'Soft' at the start of a sentence.

The word doesn't really carry much meaning, but it does provide a means of breaking whatever train of thought had gone before, and forcing a pause to start a new thought. I likened 'soft' when used like this to the phrase 'but hold on a mo'.

There's a couple of good examples of 'Soft, . . . ' said in this way in Othello, in his own lines, when switching to a new line of thought.

And then it's used to comic effect in Twelfth Night during the scene when we laugh at Malvolio's vanity when he reads the letter of fake flattery sent from those who want to ridicule him : he reads from the letter:

" 'To the unknown beloved, this, and my good wishes:'--her very phrases! By your leave, wax.
Soft! and the impressure her Lucrece, with which she uses to seal: 'tis my lady. To whom should this be?"

And then in that most famous Shakesperian speech, Hamlet's "to be, or not to be", we hear him make his desperate and private contemplation of suicide, but, when he suddenly realises that his love, Ophelia, is also in the room, then he suddenly interrupts his dark thoughts with "Soft you now!" and snaps out of his gloom and changes his entire attitude.
Hamlet does the same in another of his dark and private reflections about killing his mother's new husband, when he suddenly realises that he still loves her, despite hasty marriage to the man who killed his father :

"And do such bitter business as the day
Would quake to look on. Soft! now to my mother.
O heart, lose not thy nature;"

He does it again when his thoughs on death are interrupted by the arrival of his mother's new husband : "But Soft. Here comes the king."

I'm not implying that there is any continuity between the use of 'Soft' at the start of sentences in Elizabethan times with the use of "So" now, but there do seem to be some similarities.

 

[WestCoast]

Using 'so' as a filler word to start a sentence, even though it adds no meaning, is to my mind a matter of pure aesthetics. It's a very recent thing in English, and some people will like it, some will dislike it. But in the end it's nothing more than one of countless ways that English evolves. It has no real consequence, and it seems to me quite similar to the way that conversational German very often uses filler words to slightly colour the tone of what's being said without significantly changing the meaning - so it's not without precedent linguistically.

I think it's quite interesting to see which 'filler' words people use and how they vary across languages, if at all. I work in an international office and after I've been on the phone to the German supplier I find myself using the word 'exactly' (genau) rather too liberally since it's a catch all filler in that language. My French speaking colleague is quite similar with 'of course'.

 

[CarlSilva]

So you think I'm reading 5 pages just to see if anyone else has posted this.

So what ? Anti Nowhere League. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH7pOUm5s9k

 

[AlterEgo]

I can't quite work out whether you are being 'amusing' or not, if you are then I'm quite happy to be laughed at any old time, if you're being serious though, then I'd suggest you look through some of your own posts from today and check your spelling along with the use of American versions rather than English

So, I think I'll get back to my crossword now, I hope your evening is a pleasant one

The point is, don't slag off people for their use of English when you're butchering the language yourself. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

PS: I know you've not checked my posts as you don't appear as a visitor to my profile page, which you'd need to do to check all my posts...

Also please correct the lack of full stops in your posts. Edit: and please look at the overuse of commas. At least one should be a full stop or a semicolon; each sentence should deal with one concept only. First sentence is far too long I'm afraid. D-, see me after the lesson.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Harbornite/ExRes - please don't turn this thread into a personal spat. Why not kiss and make up?

Oh dear, did I just end a sentence with a preposition? Perhaps it's an adverb in that context.

I'm not sure if there is a consistent definition for the type of word there, but I would consider 'up' in that context to be a part of the compound verb 'make up' rather than a preposition. wikipedia seems to confirm that by suggesting that this kind of usage constitutes a particle - not a preposition.

Verb + particle (particle phrasal verbs)
a. They brought that up twice. – up is a particle, not a preposition.
b. You should think it over. – over is a particle, not a preposition.
c. Why does he always dress down? – down is a particle, not a preposition.
d. You should not give in so quickly. – in is a particle, not a preposition.
e. Where do they want to hang out? – out is a particle, not a preposition.
f. She handed it in. – in is a particle, not a preposition.

 

[Harbornite]

The point is, don't slag off people for their use of English when you're butchering the language yourself. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

PS: I know you've not checked my posts as you don't appear as a visitor to my profile page, which you'd need to do to check all my posts...

Also please correct the lack of full stops in your posts.

This.

 

[prod_pep]

Starting sentences with 'So' is one of those recent mildly irritating practices creeping into the language. The number of people my age who use 'like' almost every other word is incredible. It doesn't bother me that much but it doesn't makes people sound particularly intelligent.

American spellings, however, do get on my nerves. Favourite spelled without a 'u', centre spelled with 'er' at the end, programme missing its final two letters and so on. It seems to happen a lot on this forum even amongst the British users. As a Web Designer, I regularly have to use American spellings when coding, but it never gets into my everyday written English.

I know it's simple pedantry but it's shame to see British people succumbing to lazy American spellings.

 

[DaleCooper]

American spellings, however, do get on my nerves. Favourite spelled without a 'u', centre spelled with 'er' at the end, programme missing its final two letters and so on. It seems to happen a lot on this forum even amongst the British users. As a Web Designer, I regularly have to use American spellings when coding, but it never gets into my everyday written English.

The one that always catches me out is Humour and Humorous. English is a funny language.

 

[Harbornite]

English is a funny language indeed. One that has different pronunciations for cow and row and loads of exceptions to the I before E except after C rule. We have a word (queue) that contains 4 silent letters as well...


Coincidentally, I was reading this today.

www.cracked.com/article_20713_5-reasons-english-language-makes-no-freaking-sense.html

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The recent use of 'So' at the start of a sentence reminds me of the similar use by Shakespeare of 'Soft' at the start of a sentence.

The word doesn't really carry much meaning, but it does provide a means of breaking whatever train of thought had gone before, and forcing a pause to start a new thought. I likened 'soft' when used like this to the phrase 'but hold on a mo'.

There's a couple of good examples of 'Soft, . . . ' said in this way in Othello, in his own lines, when switching to a new line of thought.

Shakespeare also used the word "so" at the start of a sentence in the speech by Mark Anthony in Julius Caesar, Act 3, Scene 2.

"So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus
hath told you Caesar was ambitious;
For Brutus is an honourable man;
So are they all, all honourable men"

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I do not like this use of "So", another dislike of mine is the slang use of the words "Like" and "Literally" plus the use of "of" rather than "have" (I recall being given two hundred lines from my English master at secondary school for doing that.)

 

[Calthrop]

American spellings, however, do get on my nerves. Favourite spelled without a 'u', centre spelled with 'er' at the end, programme missing its final two letters and so on. It seems to happen a lot on this forum even amongst the British users. As a Web Designer, I regularly have to use American spellings when coding, but it never gets into my everyday written English.

I know it's simple pedantry but it's shame to see British people succumbing to lazy American spellings.

Doing the “devil’s advocate” thing a bit: American spelling practices as cited above simplify the spelling process, yes – but calling them “lazy”, strikes me as not altogether just. By my understanding: for these different spelling conventions (as in examples given above) which obtain in the USA, we have to thank the scholar Noah Webster (1758 – 1843), a citizen of that country in its early decades. In his Spelling Books and his “American Dictionary of the English Language”, Webster set out and promoted the new spelling conventions for US use. I gather that he genuinely believed that he was doing a good thing in bringing in simpler, more logical, and nearer-to-phonetic spellings, vis-à-vis the British equivalents; but he was also a very zealous US patriot who felt jubilant at his country’s having thrown off the British yoke, and was eager to do his bit on the “spelling front”, to accentuate difference – and different paths taken – between the USA and the “old oppressor”. At all events, his compatriots seemed to like what he was doing spelling-wise, and went along with his modifications.

I do find that the American way with “-our/-or” words, grates on me: I feel “color”, “harbor”, etc., to appear annoyingly florid and pompous – but “see with my head” that that reaction is not rational; objectively, the American “-or” convention is no worse or less well-functioning, than our way of spelling such words. And I gather from US-based message boards that where the two nations’ ways with spelling differ, as referenced here – Americans feel our spelling habits to be just as daft, as we feel theirs to be.

The one that always catches me out is Humour and Humorous. English is a funny language.

I've never much thought of that particular one before. I think, and certainly hope, that I've been spelling "humorous" correctly, all these years -- not a word which I feel that I use a great deal. And someone who makes up humorous stuff, is a humorist (likewise, no second u). Maybe the Yanks have the right idea in this case, with their spelling the original noun also, "humor" !

 

[Harbornite]

I've noticed that the original poster hasn't been back in a while. Maybe he's taken some time off to do some research and learn to how actually construct a sentence. If you're going to be a whiny old grammar Nazi (to use that overused phrase) then at least make sure your own grammar is without error.

Regarding Americanisms, I'm reminded of this saying which can also apply to many other situations: does it really matter?

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I have a similar pet hate to the OP, and that is people who start a sentence with "Listen..."

This seems to be increasingly common in my local sphere, and it really grinds my gears. I'll decide whether to listen to you, thank you very much.

 

[DaleCooper]

Regarding Americanisms, I'm reminded of this saying which can also apply to many other aituations: does it really matter?

Of course it doesn't matter but that's no reason not to get worked up about it.

I've just noticed your spelling error "aituations".

 

[Calthrop]

Regarding Americanisms, I'm reminded of this saying which can also apply to many other aituations: does it really matter?

Well, no; but it can be fun for users of a supposedly-shared language, to laugh (affectionately) at the ways in which other users thereof, bugger it up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course it doesn't matter but that's no reason not to get worked up about it.

I've just noticed your spelling error "aituations".

An example of what is generally known as "Muphry's Law": for anyone who posts on the Net with any attempt to correct or comment on something posted by someone else, in the "language" line -- their post will inevitably contain some kind of language-related foul-up.

 

[J-2739]

I've noticed that the original poster hasn't been back in a while. Maybe he's taken some time off to do some research and learn to how actually construct a sentence.

Or maybe he's playing 'Mr Grammar-phone', and checking other peoples posts for mistakes instead!

(no offence)

 

[Harbornite]

Of course it doesn't matter but that's no reason not to get worked up about it.

I've just noticed your spelling error "aituations".

That was caused by quick typing. Note that the A and S keys are right next to each other .

Personally I couldn't care less about Americanisms (although their pronounciation of Aluminium is a bit iffy) and I do wonder how someone could get worked up over them. All I will say on the matter is that nothing with regards to spelling and grammar is as bad as mixing up their, they're and there. I've seen it on this forum a few times.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, no; but it can be fun for users of a supposedly-shared language, to laugh (affectionately) at the ways in which other users thereof, bugger it up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


An example of what is generally known as "Muphry's Law": for anyone who posts on the Net with any attempt to correct or comment on something posted by someone else, in the "language" line -- their post will inevitably contain some kind of language-related foul-up.

Murphy's law surely?


I'll sum up my stance on the matter with this. Unlike Exres, I don't really care about what people say on TV or people's spelling mistakes on internet forums (no one is writing their curriculum vitae here, are they) but you should practise what you preach. If you complain about language being used poorly then at least try to maintain your own standards and learn how to construct a sentence without consistent punctuation errors. Not that hard to understand it is? My grammar is irrelevant in this context so you can't compare.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Shakespeare also used the word "so" at the start of a sentence in the speech by Mark Anthony in Julius Caesar, Act 3, Scene 2.

"So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus
hath told you Caesar was ambitious;
For Brutus is an honourable man;
So are they all, all honourable men"

I don't think that's the same thing. 'So' in that sentence clearly carries a meaning something like 'thus' or 'as I've been describing'. The OP was complaining about the modern tendency to start a sentence with 'so' where the 'so' doesn't add any meaning, but merely makes the tone more conversational (at least to some, I suspect mainly younger, ears).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't think that's the same thing. 'So' in that sentence clearly carries a meaning something like 'thus' or 'as I've been describing'. The OP was complaining about the modern tendency to start a sentence with 'so' where the 'so' doesn't add any meaning, but merely makes the tone more conversational (at least to some, I suspect mainly younger, ears).

The last time that I had "younger ears" was when I started my studies in the Upper Third classics stream at St Bede's College, Manchester, in 1956, some 60 years ago...

 

[Busaholic]

The last time that I had "younger ears" was when I started my studies in the Upper Third classics stream at St Bede's College, Manchester, in 1956, some 60 years ago...

Do ears age? Hair sprouting from (male) ears as you age seems to be a problem for some, but it's one of the few signs of ageing I haven't personally experienced. Sorry, totally off-topic, but this seems to be going round in circles anyway (how untypical)

 

[DaleCooper]

Do ears age?

A fully grown man would look a bit odd with the ears of a newborn baby and vice versa.

 

[Busaholic]

A fully grown man would look a bit odd with the ears of a newborn baby and vice versa.

Don't all babies look like Winston Churchill? (UK ones, anyway)

 

[DaleCooper]

Don't all babies look like Winston Churchill? (UK ones, anyway)

Quite true with one exception; when Winston Churchill was a baby he looked like Adolf Hitler.

 

[Harbornite]

Quite true with one exception; when Winston Churchill was a baby he looked like Adolf Hitler.

Every genocidal maniac was a baby once... awww

Here's Addy as a child

And here's Churchill, aged 7.

 

[Johnuk123]

All babies are by design ugly, never ever seen one that could remotely be described as attractive.
My children were all as ugly as hell when they were born, not their fault of course it's simply how things are.
One of my daughters turned over £2m last year as a fashion model so ugly babies don't all grow up and stay that way.

Starting a sentence with This is even worse than So..

 

[Harbornite]

Starting a sentence with This is even worse than So..

This is something I so agree with, y'know.

 

[DaleCooper]

Starting a sentence with This is even worse than So..

This could be the start of something big.
This is the happiest day of my life.
This is just what we expected.
This is another example of a sentence starting with "This".

I don't see a problem there.

Shakespeare was a bugger for it.

This England: from Richard II
William Shakespeare

This royal throne of kings, this scepter’d isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall,
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,

 

[Calthrop]

Shakespeare was a bugger for it.

I suspect that 400-odd years ago, a fair few English-language pedants / precisians / purists / prescriptivists were yelling for that Shakespeare son-of-unmarried-parents to be hanged, drawn and quartered; for the havoc that he was wreaking on the beautiful and precise English tongue.