Stena's late into Stranraer, but ScotRail won't wait. Can I claim a refund?

[222007]

Any thoughts on how I would have been able to do it without getting thrown off the train?!

I cant think of one. And if i may say so what a very selfish thing to say. As train crew myself i would be infuriated if someone tried to do this on my train

 

[jamesontheroad]

I don;t think there are any connecting services that can officially be held without penalty.

Some things have to be judged, where there is an infrequent service (like Fishguard and Stranraer) there must be a stronger case for holding a train than where there are trains every 15 minutes! Equally, some consideration must be given to the numbers of passengers already on board, the numbers held up, the pathing consequences, the expense to the TOC of providing taxi's where relevant, and probably a number of other things too.

In this instance, I think someone has decreed that no services in or out of Stranraer should be held, full stop. They're probably calculating that the financial penalties for late running are more expensive than the financial penalties of compensating, taxi-ing or bus-stituting inconvenienced passengers.

Besides, there are only five passing loops between Stranraer and Ayr, most services need to pass another along this line, so a late northbound train will delay not only a southbound train but also possibly the subsequent northbound etc etc etc.

To think Stranraer had a sleeper to London until the late eighties

 

[yorkie]

If the Stranraer trains are not going to be held in the event of a ferry delay, you may as well just close the line quite frankly.

If the railway inconveniences the ferry passengers to such an extent that they all go by other means, then the line will close. At present, it appears that the railway is doing the best job it probably can of ensuring that the line closes!

I predict it'll close within 5 years, unless they can re-locate the station nearer the town centre.

 

[ashworth]

If the Stranraer trains are not going to be held in the event of a ferry delay, you may as well just close the line quite frankly.

If the railway inconveniences the ferry passengers to such an extent that they all go by other means, then the line will close. At present, it appears that the railway is doing the best job it probably can of ensuring that the line closes!

I predict it'll close within 5 years, unless they can re-locate the station nearer the town centre.

I totally agree Yorkie. They certainly are not doing very much to attract local passengers.

About 5 years ago I was on holiday staying near Barhiill the only station between Stranraer and Girvan and did think of using the train for leisure purposes. I agree that the trains were not that regular and the timetable was a bit inconvenient, but what put me off was the high prices charged for relatively local services.

If this service was run more as a local service for local communities to use for work, leisure, shopping etc, rather than as mainly for ferry traffic, I am sure that with prices dropped by about 50% there could be significant increased use by local people. Stations like Stranraer and Barrhill serve vast rural areas.
The following prices may not seem too high to some but are not attractive for local journeys on slow trains over relatively short journeys by mileage. These are all for the cheapest Day Return tickets:
Stranraer to Barhill - £12.10
Stranraer to Girvan - £13.00
Stranraer to Ayr - £15.90
Staranraer to Kilmarnock - £24.80
Barrhill to Girvan - £7.10
Barrhill to Ayr - £15.90

 

[Greenback]

Indeed. Could it be that it's considered a line that's not worht the bother? There has been little effort to attract new business, market the line or provide a good level of service for local people. I am beginning to understand why people fear for the future of the route once the ferries go.

I am surprised that this is happening in Scotland, which is normally so very pro rail.

 

[tannedfrog]

I cant think of one. And if i may say so what a very selfish thing to say. As train crew myself i would be infuriated if someone tried to do this on my train

You may say so, but it's not selfish to say it (because thoughts don't always lead to actions) and it would not even be selfish to do it (because I would have been doing for the benefit of the other ferry passengers, not me who would already be on the train!)

 

[jamesontheroad]

Indeed. Could it be that it's considered a line that's not worht the bother? There has been little effort to attract new business, market the line or provide a good level of service for local people. I am beginning to understand why people fear for the future of the route once the ferries go.

This is all complete speculation, but when you lay the pieces out on the table and start putting them together... Ayr - Stranraer is a dog of a line for Network Rail and ScotRail to operate, and they'd rather not bother...

High running costs: single track with passing loops and token block operation, which means at least three (four?) signal boxes have to be manned (probably 24/7).

High infrastructure costs: unmodernised jointed-rail most of the way, line is very remote and difficult to reach by road for permanent way maintenance. At least one older viaduct already speed restricted, and liable to be proportionally expensive to maintain.

Low revenue relative to other operations: there's a very sparse population within reach of the line, few of whom are going to be regular (i.e. valuable) commuters to Ayr or Glasgow. Most local residents have cars anyway, and would be hard to persuade onto the train. GB/NI passengers are usually travelling on disproportionately cheap zonal fares, the revenue of which must be shared with Stena, so they're not particularly valuable to ScotRail. Plus many Interailing backpackers doing the England -> Wales -> RoI -> NI -> Scotland -> England loop.

Stena have committed to abandoning Stranraer from 2011, because it will lop 15 minutes of each crossing and therefore save them a packet in fuel costs (they've already done this by relocating to the north-eastern-most docks at the Port of Belfast). They don't care about foot passengers because they are pay relatively little and only really contribute to on-board takings in the bar. The big money for Stena is in cars, buses and lorries.

Stranraer - London is long gone, Stranraer - Newcastle is recently gone, and Stranraer - Ayr / Kilmarnock / Glasgow will, without the ferry traffic, pull very low passenger numbers. When the passenger numbers fall off the Stena-induced cliff, ScotRail will put their hands up and say "not our fault guv."

PS / edit...

Oh, and politics. Well my dear elected Scottish politicians seem to be proving themselves up their usual level of usefulness on this matter, making no moves to stop Stena from killing this railway. The people who will really suffer are in Northern Ireland, and their politicians are relatively powerless on this matter because the decisions are being made outside their jurisdiction. And besides, NI politicians are usually too busy working out whether or not their conscience will allow them to be in the same room as their colleagues...

 

[tannedfrog]

I cant think of one. And if i may say so what a very selfish thing to say. As train crew myself i would be infuriated if someone tried to do this on my train

As a passenger I would be infuriated if a train manager attempted to lock the doors at 19:39:30 if he/she knew there were 30-odd passengers running to catch the train, who only needed 2 minutes more to get there from a ferry that was running late.

 

[jamesontheroad]

As a passenger I would be infuriated if a train manager attempted to lock the doors at 19:39:30 if he/she knew there were 30-odd passengers running to catch the train, who only needed 2 minutes more to get there from a ferry that was running late.

The trouble is, once you've waited 2 minutes, why not wait 20? The elderly or families with children or people with bags to collect from the carousel will take much longer than the people who could make it in 2 minutes. I have some sympathy to ScotRail staff, because this is not their fault.

 

[CarterUSM]

As a passenger I would be infuriated if a train manager attempted to lock the doors at 19:39:30 if he/she knew there were 30-odd passengers running to catch the train, who only needed 2 minutes more to get there from a ferry that was running late.

I can assure you we are between a rock and a hard place with this. Delay attribution is pretty important nowadays for whatever reasons, and disciplinary action is not unknown for some severe cases where it can be attributed to traincrew.

 

[222007]

As a passenger I would be infuriated if a train manager attempted to lock the doors at 19:39:30 if he/she knew there were 30-odd passengers running to catch the train, who only needed 2 minutes more to get there from a ferry that was running late.

Actually there are plenty of stations where the trains doors are closed 30 seconds befor departure that really is normal (in fact 40seconds befor departure for Virgin services at new street)

 

[tannedfrog]

Actually there are plenty of stations where the trains doors are closed 30 seconds befor departure that really is normal (in fact 40seconds befor departure for Virgin services at new street)

Yes, I've sometimes seen that as I've been running to catch a train...
I understand that doors might need to close 40 seconds before departure, but does departure always have to be at the very start of the minute?!

My opinion is that they shouldn't lock doors until 19:40:00, and if that means departing at 19:40:40, that's fine!

 

[CarterUSM]

Yes, I've sometimes seen that as I've been running to catch a train...
I understand that doors might need to close 40 seconds before departure, but does departure always have to be at the very start of the minute?!

My opinion is that they shouldn't lock doors until 19:40:00, and if that means departing at 19:40:40, that's fine!

But it isn't departing at its booked time then!

 

[tannedfrog]

But it isn't departing at its booked time then!

the timetables don't specify the number of seconds?!
19:40:40 is still 19:40 !

 

[yorkie]

Working timetables don't go to 'seconds' but they do go to half-minutes.

 

[Old Timer]

Are there specific train journeys that are classified as connecting services and can be held without financial penalty for being late?

I realise in some areas, the big problem is losing paths, but that can't be the case everywhere - especially at weekends in rural areas where a connection could be vital given the time until the next service (IF there's a next service).

Or does the railway simple ignore connections and say though - to keep to the schedules?

I was having a drink recently with a TOC Manager and the subject of penalties came up in the conversation.

From their point of view they are between a rock and a hard place, and I do have a degree of sympathy for them.

Firstly Network Rail have absolutely NO interest in passenger service, in that they are simply concerned with punctuality so as to make their performance statisics look good.

As you know, they are subject to scrutiny on performance, and this is both insidious and extremely dangerous as it is pushing front line staff to put performance first. We already see the consequences of that in rising incidents.

The TOCs meanwhile have their performance statistics second-guessed by the ORR, and these form an important part of the franchise renewal.

A TOC which has poor performance statistics will be more likely to lose its franchise. Sometimes those poor perfomances are down to the acts of "passengers", for example someone delaying a train to let late comers catch it and thus causing delays and penalties.

Thus we have the situation where if a TOC actually provides a service to the puiblic by seeking to maintain connections it is penalised dramatically for doing so. This is quite iniquitous especially when done by a civil servant sat behind a desk with absolutely no Railway experience.

Train performance statistics are yet another stick with which the Media and passenger users groups can beat the TOCs.

Add to this mix the passenger charter compensation schemes and thus can anyone blame TOCs for rigidly putting performance first ?

We already have various posts in this Forum about people wanting to know how to demand compensation for delays.

Maybe the best way to resolve it is for those who want money for every minutes delay in compensation to fight it out with those who want trains to run as a public service.

I suggest a little self contemplation amongst a number on here who criticise TOCs train service performance may well be in order. If you want a public service which is prepared to ensure connections then you have to accept late running. Its one or the other. The alternative is the European style with long stands at stations en route to capture any running delays.

I am told that the new Government intends to look closely at this whole performance regime, and the wholly absurd transfer of paper money betweem Network Railand the TOCs, with incredible amounts of money and time taken up by delay attribution processes and appeals panels. The sooner it does so the better, and the sooner this delay compensation malarky is kicked into touch the better as well.

 

[Oswyntail]

....
High infrastructure costs: unmodernised jointed-rail most of the way, line is very remote and difficult to reach by road for permanent way maintenance. At least one older viaduct already speed restricted, and liable to be proportionally expensive to maintain.

Low revenue relative to other operations: there's a very sparse population within reach of the line, few of whom are going to be regular (i.e. valuable) commuters ..... Most local residents have cars anyway, and would be hard to persuade onto the train. ...

Ah the nostalgia of it...sorry, I thought you were talking about Settle/CarlisleThese things can be overcome with concerted effort.

Working timetables don't go to 'seconds' but they do go to half-minutes.

If TOCs don't publish the "seconds" timing, then passengers are surely entitled to believe that the departure can be at any stage during that minute.
And, on the overall thread, It would not be beyond the wit of man to work in some contingency arrangements for late running ferries, if teh company wanted to.

 

[Old Timer]

Yes, I've sometimes seen that as I've been running to catch a train...
I understand that doors might need to close 40 seconds before departure, but does departure always have to be at the very start of the minute?!

My opinion is that they shouldn't lock doors until 19:40:00, and if that means departing at 19:40:40, that's fine!

I think you have a very valid point.

Every Virgin WC service leaving Euston has the doors closed 1 minute before departure.

Now Railways do not operate like airlines as far as times are concerned (DfT please note) so I can understand someone being narked if they arrive 55 seconds before departure.

Why on earth do we not now advertise ALL services as departing 1 minute earlier than they do to allow for passengers joining ?

Problem solved. Punters are not interested in the actual time their train departs rather concentrating on arival times at destination.

 

[radamfi]

And what of the greater good of the rest of the passengers enroute ?

What of them ?

There are many many reasons why a train may be instructed to leave on time, and many of them may have to do with the greater good of the bigger majority of passengers.

For example, a late start away from Aberystwyth will affect incomomg train sove rthe single line, it will cause further delays at Shrewsburyt, it will definitely lose its path at Wolverhampton, and approaching New St.

The knock on affects to other trains will thus far outweigh any small number that may be involved at the start of the journey.

In many cases a late running train will not make up time but will loose time, causing further an more disruption as it proceeds, which in turn creates more.

Even a small delay at somewhere like New St can and does ripple out. I remember one delay working its way into delays at Penzance and Inverness !

That's the typical British way of thinking. The British way leads to people being obsessed with direct trains. It means that people avoid connections where possible. The end result is train planners not even bothering to ensure that timetables are coordinated.

Just because a train is a through train it doesn't mean that passengers on the through train should get priority. Being on a through train is just luck. People with destinations not served by the through train should have equal priority as those on the through train. Dutch and Swiss trains typically wait for late running services, especially where the delayed train is of same or higher class than the connecting trains.

 

[MCR247]

My opinion is that they shouldn't lock doors until 19:40:00, and if that means departing at 19:40:40, that's fine!

Then they would make it the 19:39 train

 

[TEW]

Holy head used to be the receiving point for mail from Ireland, hence the title"Irish Mail" 1A04 0125 Holyhead to Euston

This was a Boat Train and thus its running, and that of its relief (0053 ex Holyhead), were dependent upon how the ship was running.

As 1A04 was advertised from Crewe and formed an early morning Up service then dependent upon the number of passengers, it would either run late or a relief would be run behind it some point.

It sometimes was the case that a special ran from Crewe to London in its booked times.

Coversely the ship would also wait a resonable time for incoming passengers off 1D84 the Down "Irish Mail"

This wasn't even a boat train, just an ATW connection from the fast ferry, they held it for about 15 minutes to allow everyone to get off the boat, collect luggage and get on to it. They also held the London connection at Chester.

 

[Old Timer]

This wasn't even a boat train, just an ATW connection from the fast ferry, they held it for about 15 minutes to allow everyone to get off the boat, collect luggage and get on to it. They also held the London connection at Chester.

That would be a rareity today I suspect.

Radamfi
The UK timetable is not constructed like the European ones. There is very little slack in running times and not much dwell time at stations.

The way the Railways are now organised means that any delays are penalised, and as you will see from this site, people want to claim compensation as soon as they are delayed.

At the same time they complain about late running trains.

 

[TEW]

Well, it wasn't today, but it was this year.

 

[jon0844]

OT, I see what you're saying and it's a nonsense isn't it! (Not what you said, but the situation)

To provide a service, you should have services that are specifically designed to connect with something else (buses, coaches, ferries or whatever) and not subject to fines or penalties.

In fact, any TOC that can show that it has managed to arrange a timetable to support a proper and decent INTEGRATED transport policy should be rewarded.

When you have services every 3, 5, 10, 15 minutes or so then it's different. But that's more in the South East or London.

 

[radamfi]

The UK timetable is not constructed like the European ones. There is very little slack in running times and not much dwell time at stations.

So maybe the UK timetable should be constructed with connections in mind! Fixing the penalty regime accordingly.

Slack time on, say Dutch trains, mostly applies to stopping trains where they often stop at major stations for several minutes in order to form connections with Intercity trains. That is in the interest of the vast majority of passengers. The main purpose of stopping trains in the Netherlands is to form connections. You don't get much slack time on Intercity services, except where you have cross platform interchange with other Intercity trains.

 

[rail-britain]

If the Stranraer trains are not going to be held in the event of a ferry delay, you may as well just close the line quite frankly

This won't be a problem from 2014, as the Ferry Terminal is due to close
Transport Scotland have still to make a decision on the future of the rail line, rumours are persistent on closing the line at Ayr or Girvan

There has been a 32% drop in rail passengers since 1998, the main reason appears to be due to poor connections

Stena has however advised that once the move is completed it would operate a "free connection bus", but whether of course there is a train to connect to is a separate issue, equally, the service may serve Ayr rather than Stranraer

The main issue is that neither party can agree on a timetable to ensure that services match, ie rail-ferry-rail

 

[Greenback]

I was having a drink recently with a TOC Manager and the subject of penalties came up in the conversation.

From their point of view they are between a rock and a hard place, and I do have a degree of sympathy for them.

Firstly Network Rail have absolutely NO interest in passenger service, in that they are simply concerned with punctuality so as to make their performance statisics look good.

As you know, they are subject to scrutiny on performance, and this is both insidious and extremely dangerous as it is pushing front line staff to put performance first. We already see the consequences of that in rising incidents.

The TOCs meanwhile have their performance statistics second-guessed by the ORR, and these form an important part of the franchise renewal.

A TOC which has poor performance statistics will be more likely to lose its franchise. Sometimes those poor perfomances are down to the acts of "passengers", for example someone delaying a train to let late comers catch it and thus causing delays and penalties.

Thus we have the situation where if a TOC actually provides a service to the puiblic by seeking to maintain connections it is penalised dramatically for doing so. This is quite iniquitous especially when done by a civil servant sat behind a desk with absolutely no Railway experience.

Train performance statistics are yet another stick with which the Media and passenger users groups can beat the TOCs.

Add to this mix the passenger charter compensation schemes and thus can anyone blame TOCs for rigidly putting performance first ?

We already have various posts in this Forum about people wanting to know how to demand compensation for delays.

Maybe the best way to resolve it is for those who want money for every minutes delay in compensation to fight it out with those who want trains to run as a public service.

I suggest a little self contemplation amongst a number on here who criticise TOCs train service performance may well be in order. If you want a public service which is prepared to ensure connections then you have to accept late running. Its one or the other. The alternative is the European style with long stands at stations en route to capture any running delays.

I am told that the new Government intends to look closely at this whole performance regime, and the wholly absurd transfer of paper money betweem Network Railand the TOCs, with incredible amounts of money and time taken up by delay attribution processes and appeals panels. The sooner it does so the better, and the sooner this delay compensation malarky is kicked into touch the better as well.

A very good post, considered and accurate. A lot of the trouble, in my opinion stems back to the customers charter of John Major's government. This has been further embedded in the way the railways operate through privatisation and the constant New Labour reorganisations.

I think that a lat departure time is not always a bad thing, if the majority of people in that situation are saved from inconveneince as a result! As I said, this happens regularly in South West Wales, where common sense seems to take precedence. I have sometimes been delayed by 5-10 minutes on the 1809 ex Swansea to Carmarthen because of a late FGW from Paddington. Do I mind? Not too much, because one day it might be me on that train wanting a connection (although the law of sod says that that's the day it won't be held!).

Frankly, the compensation scheme is far too generous. Sometimes people are rubbing their hands with glee when trains are delayed. I did this myself back in 2004 when we were held for two hours outside the Severn Tunnel after the driver suspected we may have hit someone in the tunnel. Fortunately, we had only run over a bit of rubbish, but the constant supply of FC free refreshments, and the knowledge I could get all my money back, kept me very happy indeed! I managed to finish The Da Vinci Code while we were stationary!

 

[Paul Kelly]

This is all complete speculation, but when you lay the pieces out on the table and start putting them together... Ayr - Stranraer is a dog of a line for Network Rail and ScotRail to operate, and they'd rather not bother...

High running costs: single track with passing loops and token block operation, which means at least three (four?) signal boxes have to be manned (probably 24/7).

High infrastructure costs: unmodernised jointed-rail most of the way, line is very remote and difficult to reach by road for permanent way maintenance. At least one older viaduct already speed restricted, and liable to be proportionally expensive to maintain.

Low revenue relative to other operations: there's a very sparse population within reach of the line, few of whom are going to be regular (i.e. valuable) commuters to Ayr or Glasgow. Most local residents have cars anyway, and would be hard to persuade onto the train. GB/NI passengers are usually travelling on disproportionately cheap zonal fares, the revenue of which must be shared with Stena, so they're not particularly valuable to ScotRail. Plus many Interailing backpackers doing the England -> Wales -> RoI -> NI -> Scotland -> England loop.

Stena have committed to abandoning Stranraer from 2011, because it will lop 15 minutes of each crossing and therefore save them a packet in fuel costs (they've already done this by relocating to the north-eastern-most docks at the Port of Belfast). They don't care about foot passengers because they are pay relatively little and only really contribute to on-board takings in the bar. The big money for Stena is in cars, buses and lorries.

Stranraer - London is long gone, Stranraer - Newcastle is recently gone, and Stranraer - Ayr / Kilmarnock / Glasgow will, without the ferry traffic, pull very low passenger numbers. When the passenger numbers fall off the Stena-induced cliff, ScotRail will put their hands up and say "not our fault guv."

PS / edit...

Oh, and politics. Well my dear elected Scottish politicians seem to be proving themselves up their usual level of usefulness on this matter, making no moves to stop Stena from killing this railway. The people who will really suffer are in Northern Ireland, and their politicians are relatively powerless on this matter because the decisions are being made outside their jurisdiction. And besides, NI politicians are usually too busy working out whether or not their conscience will allow them to be in the same room as their colleagues...

I totally agree with all that; it's actually very sad watching the whole thing unfolding like this. This is unscientific and anecdotal, but in the last couple of years I've noticed more people around Belfast talking about and becoming aware of the rail/sail possibility - especially for the short trip over to Scotland it really is a viable relaxing and cheap alternative to low cost airlines with all their luggage restrictions etc.

And yes there are four manned signal boxes: Girvan, Barrhill, Glenwhilly and Dunragit. Stranraer signal box is usually unmanned and there is one train only allowed south of Dunragit except at weekends when there is sometimes a train lays over in Stranraer station. But I've never seen trains passing any further south than Barrhill - seems to me Glenwhilly and Dunragit, perhaps Girvan too could be closed most of the time. I guess that would mean people losing their jobs though but there are easy savings there to be made if anybody was serious about running the line more cheaply.

Looking at it cynically, it really does seem like every effort is being made to keep the costs high and revenue low in order to justify closure...

 

[Deerfold]

I think that a late departure time is not always a bad thing, if the majority of people in that situation are saved from inconveneince as a result! As I said, this happens regularly in South West Wales, where common sense seems to take precedence. I have sometimes been delayed by 5-10 minutes on the 1809 ex Swansea to Carmarthen because of a late FGW from Paddington. Do I mind? Not too much, because one day it might be me on that train wanting a connection (although the law of sod says that that's the day it won't be held!).

Of course that's fine unless you're the person who then misses their bus because of the late running connecting train...

I managed to finish The Da Vinci Code while we were stationary!

So not all good then

 

[Greenback]

Of course that's fine unless you're the person who then misses their bus because of the late running connecting train...

Possibly not, it depends how long the connection time is and how long it is until the next bus! Like the rail situation, it depends on the exact situation of the individual.

So not all good then

I was glad to get it out of the way! Everyone was expected to read it when it came out!