Stena's late into Stranraer, but ScotRail won't wait. Can I claim a refund?

[jon0844]

Looking at it cynically, it really does seem like every effort is being made to keep the costs high and revenue low in order to justify closure...

Given how people are starting to protest against Ryanair and every new hidden charge (or, sneaky, charge if you want to put it that way), you'd think that everyone would be trying to take advantage of that situation.

Ryanair wouldn't hesitate to do the same the other way around.

Low cost airlines are becoming less low cost all the time, with the odd amazing deal to keep those headline figures. As more and more people realise they aren't paying those figures, they may well be the perfect audience to entice away to rail, or indeed ferries.

Given the cost of petrol, I'm also surprised we aren't seeing demand for more ferries to Europe from Newcastle, Harwich etc too.

 

[harz99]

This won't be a problem from 2014, as the Ferry Terminal is due to close
Transport Scotland have still to make a decision on the future of the rail line, rumours are persistent on closing the line at Ayr or Girvan

There has been a 32% drop in rail passengers since 1998, the main reason appears to be due to poor connections

Stena has however advised that once the move is completed it would operate a "free connection bus", but whether of course there is a train to connect to is a separate issue, equally, the service may serve Ayr rather than Stranraer

The main issue is that neither party can agree on a timetable to ensure that services match, ie rail-ferry-rail

Actually Stena Line are due to move to their new port facility at Cairnryan in Autumn/Winter of 2011, not 2014.

Scotrail, have produced a proposal for Stranraer-Ayr in the December 2011 recast which I have seen; the proposal still has trains running to Stranraer.

Unfortunately the service proposed will be worse for existing users from Stranraer/Barrhill with the first train north leaving nearly an hour earlier, creating a 4 hour gap in the morning, and doing nothing to improve the existing gaps in service currently suffered. Conversely, Girvan/Maybole will enjoy a slightly better service with two more departures towards Ayr than at present.

However, many of the proposed departures on this line will require a change at Ayr for stations to Glasgow, and it is by no means clear if connections into the "hub" at Kilmarnock will be maintained as Scotrail have not provided any information regarding the GSW line either on to Glasgow or to Dumfries/Carlisle.

In defence of the railway, I should say that Stena have been a far bigger culprit as far as not maintaining ferry/train connections goes. Rail can only change times twice a year, Stena does not consult the rail industry and takes no account of rail times when making its frequent "adjustments" to schedules. I have more than once seen the HSS sail as a slightly late running train arrives in the winter months.

In fact, it is fair to say that Stena has no interest in rail passengers whatsoever, nor foot passengers from the local area. Others have said, and they are quite correct, Stena's priorities are firstly for freight, secondly for private motorists and thirdly for the coaching trade - either daytrip or scheduled.

Any free connection bus is likely to operate only to Stranraer Town or more probably to Girvan for the train service north from there, and in any case is likely to be short lived as most people will simply use Citylink for a faster easier journey north from Cairnryan.

 

[Greenback]

I agree, Stena has abandoned foot passnegers to a far greater extent than the TOC's. And so has Iarnrod Eireann, in Rosslare at least!

But of course, when Sealink was sold off it was all doen to promote competition and improve the service to passengers! Hooray! Another benefit of privatisation!

 

[TEW]

Well you say yourself that the publically owned Iarnrod Eireann does a much worse job than the private TOCs in this country.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, I'm not very consistent!

Really, though, I was talking about holding boat connections where the train still runs with little reason other than for ferry passengers. As was said, Stena don't even tell the TOC's when they alter their timings, in the circumstances it's quite ironic that it;s only the privatisation process that has caused the rails ervices to remain! But given they do remain, surely it's better to hold a train for a couple of minutes!

When both the ferry and the train were udner the same ownership, there was a lot more integration and communication.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Actually Stena Line are due to move to their new port facility at Cairnryan in Autumn/Winter of 2011, not 2014.

The funny thing is, since I started looking into this, Stena have been very sneaky with their description of the move.

Yes, the new port will be closer to the mouth of Loch Ryan, and therefore the crossing will be "shorter". But in addition to the £70-80m being spent building a new port, Stena are apparently also looking to spend up to £120m commissioning new ferries for the Belfast / Port Ryan route. From this article back in February:

It has also set aside £120m to go shopping for two ‘super fast conventional’ ferries for the route to shorten crossing times to just over two hours.

Just over two hours eh? The midday-ish Stena HSS sailing is currently scheduled to do the Belfast / Stranraer crossing in exactly two hours. So while the new port will make for a "shorter" crossing geographically, it won't be any faster than the current HSS sailings, and in fact it'll probably be slower.

As some of you might be aware, the HSS is a nightmare of a ship for Stena to operate, because it was designed with massive gas turbine engines at a time when fuel costs were much lower. Of the three originally in service, one has now been sold and the Belfast / Stranraer ship will be leaving as soon as two (slower, normal) ferries can be found to replace it.

So it's not just rail passengers that are losing out

 

[harz99]

The funny thing is, since I started looking into this, Stena have been very sneaky with their description of the move.

Yes, the new port will be closer to the mouth of Loch Ryan, and therefore the crossing will be "shorter". But in addition to the £70-80m being spent building a new port, Stena are apparently also looking to spend up to £120m commissioning new ferries for the Belfast / Port Ryan route. From this article back in February:



Just over two hours eh? The midday-ish Stena HSS sailing is currently scheduled to do the Belfast / Stranraer crossing in exactly two hours. So while the new port will make for a "shorter" crossing geographically, it won't be any faster than the current HSS sailings, and in fact it'll probably be slower.

As some of you might be aware, the HSS is a nightmare of a ship for Stena to operate, because it was designed with massive gas turbine engines at a time when fuel costs were much lower. Of the three originally in service, one has now been sold and the Belfast / Stranraer ship will be leaving as soon as two (slower, normal) ferries can be found to replace it.

So it's not just rail passengers that are losing out

An even bigger and more disruptive problem with the HSS is that it was not designed to sail on rough seas - every winter would see several occasions when she was moored out in the centre of Loch Ryan unable to sail because of rough seas, whilst the old conventional ferries plied their trade (slowly) to and from Belfast!

Not only will the new port be closer to Belfast, but equally or maybe more importantly the ferries will be able to reach speed much more quickly rather than be subject to the low speed limit out of Stranraer (it takes about 30 minutes to get into unrestricted water from the existing port).

 

[jamesontheroad]

Not only will the new port be closer to Belfast, but equally or maybe more importantly the ferries will be able to reach speed much more quickly rather than be subject to the low speed limit out of Stranraer (it takes about 30 minutes to get into unrestricted water from the existing port).

This is exactly what Stena did back in 2008, moving to the new ferry terminal at the northernmost tip of the Port of Belfast. They shaved two miles of the journey, which saves them fuel and time, but a much steeper fare for anyone who thinks of taking a cab between the terminal and the city centre! That could include rail passengers, because Translink only provide a courtesy bus for cross-channel coach passengers. If you have a sail and rail ticket you have to make your own way into town; either on the Ulsterbus / Citylink courtesy bus (about £2.50) or on Metro 96, which is very vaguely timed around the boats.

 

[Tomnick]

And yes there are four manned signal boxes: Girvan, Barrhill, Glenwhilly and Dunragit. Stranraer signal box is usually unmanned and there is one train only allowed south of Dunragit except at weekends when there is sometimes a train lays over in Stranraer station. But I've never seen trains passing any further south than Barrhill - seems to me Glenwhilly and Dunragit, perhaps Girvan too could be closed most of the time. I guess that would mean people losing their jobs though but there are easy savings there to be made if anybody was serious about running the line more cheaply.

From a performance point of view, it probably wouldn't be ideal to lose all opportunity to pass trains south of Barrhill, but I'm sure that the cost of keeping all four boxes open is substantial - given the choice between keeping the line open with further simplified signalling (for a modest investment) or complete closure...! I don't believe any boxes other than Stranraer have the facility to switch out currently though.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Was there any reason that the Stranraer line didn't receive RETB when it was being developed for the West Highland Lines? Presumably something to do with the variety of locomotives on the Intercity services that used to compliment the Sprinters?

 

[Nightrider]

Looks as though its over for Stranraer/Barrhill once Stena move to Cairnryan.

Hard to believe at one time there was a dining car/first class on that route.

It has now become the longest 2hrs 30 minutes of your life.

Toilets on the train though.

For that we can be thankful.
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The funny thing is, since I started looking into this, Stena have been very sneaky with their description of the move.

Yes, the new port will be closer to the mouth of Loch Ryan, and therefore the crossing will be "shorter". But in addition to the £70-80m being spent building a new port, Stena are apparently also looking to spend up to £120m commissioning new ferries for the Belfast / Port Ryan route. From this article back in February:



Just over two hours eh? The midday-ish Stena HSS sailing is currently scheduled to do the Belfast / Stranraer crossing in exactly two hours. So while the new port will make for a "shorter" crossing geographically, it won't be any faster than the current HSS sailings, and in fact it'll probably be slower.

As some of you might be aware, the HSS is a nightmare of a ship for Stena to operate, because it was designed with massive gas turbine engines at a time when fuel costs were much lower. Of the three originally in service, one has now been sold and the Belfast / Stranraer ship will be leaving as soon as two (slower, normal) ferries can be found to replace it.

So it's not just rail passengers that are losing out

Although from i,ve heard the 2 new ferries will be twice the size of the present slow ferries.
Millions upon millions spent to get what exactly.................the same time to get from Belfast/Glasgow/Belfast as a hundred years ago.
Strange one.
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Funny how you still meet people talking about take the Seacat across to N.I. considering it has long gone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeaCat
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That boat was rammed with foot passengers, and I saw quite a few of them just make it onto the platform as we rolled past.

Tell the truth now James, did you wave?

 

[jamesontheroad]

Tell the truth now James, did you wave?

My lungs were burning, my legs were jelly... I did my best to slide beneath the line of the window

 

[harz99]

Looks as though its over for Stranraer/Barrhill once Stena move to Cairnryan.

How so?

The proposed timetable for December 2011 still has 6 trains a day to/from Stranraer (a reduction of one over present) which although far from perfect, is not "over" by any means.

It does however not offer much in the way of journey opportunities as almost all journeys run to/from Killie with some connections at Ayr and maybe at Killie (depends on an as yet unannounced new timetable for the GSW line how it works at Killie).

 

[Nightrider]

How so?

The proposed timetable for December 2011 still has 6 trains a day to/from Stranraer (a reduction of one over present) which although far from perfect, is not "over" by any means.

It does however not offer much in the way of journey opportunities as almost all journeys run to/from Killie with some connections at Ayr and maybe at Killie (depends on an as yet unannounced new timetable for the GSW line how it works at Killie).

The future will give us the answer.
I fear for the line beyond Girvan long term.

 

[Argosy]

How so?

The proposed timetable for December 2011 still has 6 trains a day to/from Stranraer (a reduction of one over present) which although far from perfect, is not "over" by any means.

It does however not offer much in the way of journey opportunities as almost all journeys run to/from Killie with some connections at Ayr and maybe at Killie (depends on an as yet unannounced new timetable for the GSW line how it works at Killie).

It will be imossible to travel from Kilmarnock to Stranraer before 1704 without either going via Glasgow or waiting an hour in Ayr.

 

[Nightrider]

Tried booking online Glasgow - Belfast return through the Scotrail website.
Cheapest ticket £44 return, great i'll have some of that.
Put off though by the 15 hour journey via Holyhead/Dublin.
:roll:
Try it and see.
Anybody any idea why Scotrail don't promote the Glasgow - Stranraer - Belfast route anymore.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Tried booking online Glasgow - Belfast return through the Scotrail website.
Cheapest ticket £44 return, great i'll have some of that.
Put off though by the 15 hour journey via Holyhead/Dublin.
:roll:
Try it and see.
Anybody any idea why Scotrail don't promote the Glasgow - Stranraer - Belfast route anymore.

Eh? They do. I don't understand why you would be routed through Dublin, unless for whatever reason on your chosen date either the train or ferry to/from Stranraer isn't operating.

I have only ever bought my tickets at the station. Never been routed from Glasgow to Belfast any way other than via Stranraer.

 

[Nightrider]

Eh? They do. I don't understand why you would be routed through Dublin, unless for whatever reason on your chosen date either the train or ferry to/from Stranraer isn't operating.

I have only ever bought my tickets at the station. Never been routed from Glasgow to Belfast any way other than via Stranraer.

Think it might just be Scotrail's website.
No doubt if i pay a visit to the booking office at Glasgow Central today, they will sell me a return ticket via Stranraer.

 

[reb0118]

Think it might just be Scotrail's website.
No doubt if i pay a visit to the booking office at Glasgow Central today, they will sell me a return ticket via Stranraer.

There has been a problem with Stena's HSS catamarans on all Irish Sea routes. This may however be resolved by now. Scotrail staff were advised not to sell rail-sea tickets but to refer prospective pax to Stena directly. The option to book online was also removed as well I think.

As far as I'm aware rail-sea tickets are valid on the conventional ferries which are running normally. We here at the railway, however, do not have access to the conventional ferries in our timetable database hence you have to contact Stena direct and they will sort you out.

I was caught out myself last month when returning from Dublin as I originally wished to travel back via Belfast on the Enterprise however the revised ferry times out of Belfast were not suitable. I came back via Holyhead on the Swift - quite a good journey really - only £38. In your case it would be a five country trip for £44 - very good value - a very long journey as well though!

As I said above the problems with the fast boats may be resolved by now and in any case you can buy your ticket "rte Stranraer/Stena" from Scotrail's TVMs.

Cheers

 

[gordonthemoron]

Stena quotes £54 rail-sail return

 

[Nightrider]

I rechecked the Glasgow four countries return trip to Belfast with the Scotrail website.
Should point out my mistake, it was £44 each way.

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Paid a visit to Glasgow Central ticket office.
Seems you haven't been able to buy a through ticket, Glasgow - Belfast for some time.
You can buy a train ticket to Stranraer.
What you do after that is up to you.
The only reason there isn't an outcry about this is because there is so few foot passengers.
Sad really.

 

[Greenback]

It is sad, but it's the same with Fishguard and Rosslare. Very few rail sea fares are available on the route compared with Holyhead to Dublin/DL. It's no wonder foot passenger numbers have fallen.

 

[Flying Snail]

The fares still come up on avantix, AFAIK it is the ship reservation/control ticket that is blocked presumably by Stena. I would guess that as the service from Stranraer has only months left the through tickets will not return. Buying seperate tickets is much more expensive.

On the operational side Stena have just confirmed the acquisition of two ferries (on a 3 year lease) for the new Belfast-Cairnryan service due to start in November replacing the HSS and current conventional ferries. The ships are Superfast VII and Superfast VIII, two near identical 30,000 ton conventional ferries with an impressive top speed of 27 knots, journey time is expected to be 2h15m.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is sad, but it's the same with Fishguard and Rosslare. Very few rail sea fares are available on the route compared with Holyhead to Dublin/DL. It's no wonder foot passenger numbers have fallen.

The problem with fares via Fishguard is that they aren't available to any Irish destination except Rosslare. With the lack of decent rail connections (not to mention the brilliant move of removing the rail station from the purpose-built rail+ship terminal) it is probably just as well. Onward connections from Rosslare are better by bus but as this is unadvertised they take very few through passengers.

 

[jamesontheroad]

The only reason there isn't an outcry about this is because there is so few foot passengers.

I'd disagree. There are many passengers - in my experience traveling on various connections on various days throughout the year you can expect at least 10 and as many as 100 people traveling via Stena and Scotrail between the two cities (especially on a Friday night before an Old Firm match). The trouble is these are infrequent travelers and probably unaware of the stitch-up being planned by Stena. The lack of an outcry is because this demise has been so poorly publicised.

RIP Rail-and-sail to Northern Ireland

 

[Greenback]

The problem with fares via Fishguard is that they aren't available to any Irish destination except Rosslare. With the lack of decent rail connections (not to mention the brilliant move of removing the rail station from the purpose-built rail+ship terminal) it is probably just as well. Onward connections from Rosslare are better by bus but as this is unadvertised they take very few through passengers.

I'd like to be able to buy a through ticket to Dublin via Rosslare, though I agree that IE have done their best to discourage rail travel to conenct to the ferries.

Even in 1997, they were not advising against using the 1700 train from Dublin to conenct with the 2150 ferry to Fishguard, and told me to get the bus instead!

With the removal of the train station from the terminal tot he periphery of the giant car park, plus the abandonment of any pretence at all of serving Rosslare Europort for the port itself, such passengers that remain are pretty much forced on to the coach!

Still, as the service is coming to an end from Stranraer, I can see why they aren;t selling through tickets.

 

[Nightrider]

Have Stena and First Scotrail fallen out with each other?

 

[reb0118]

Through fares are still available. I've seen them when checking tickets on the 09:55 Edinburgh to Glasgow Central service - this train seems popular with connecting pax for the 1142 GLC to Stranraer train.

However I've seen a big increase in pax with tickets to Stranraer only also.

Spoke with a few Stena bods at Holyhead recently and was told that nobody really cares about checking for the control ticket at the port - they just look for "rte Stena" (I found this true with Irish Ferries also). However if the ferry is full (very rare for foot pax) - then pax holding control ticket get priority.

 

[185]

As much as I detest FirstGroup, I think the situation with Scotrail control's decision making is much better run than Arriva Train Wales's who have several times allowed people to get stranded at Holyhead overnight. At least at Stranraer, they often hold the train if it's the last one of the night.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Just had a nice email back from Mark Smith of seat61.com, who I told of the missing fares.

RailEasy has talked to ScotRail, who say that the revised Stena Line ferry timetable hasn't yet been input into the rail industry system. So although the fares are there, the ferry times aren't, so the journey planner doesn't return any options. They're trying to fix it..

 

[junglejames]

I'd disagree. There are many passengers - in my experience traveling on various connections on various days throughout the year you can expect at least 10 and as many as 100 people traveling via Stena and Scotrail between the two cities (especially on a Friday night before an Old Firm match). The trouble is these are infrequent travelers and probably unaware of the stitch-up being planned by Stena. The lack of an outcry is because this demise has been so poorly publicised.

RIP Rail-and-sail to Northern Ireland

What stitch up by Stena? I see no stitch up. They always advertise Rail/ Sail. There is a special section for it on their website, which is easy to see on the homepage.
They are offering Rail Sail on all of their routes which carry foot passengers. £54 return Glasgow to Belfast.
Admittedly the best one is the Dutch one, as you are able to go further afield in Holland as well, but they are definitely there for all to see. No stitch up evident.
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Right for all of you wanting Rail Sail fares, may I suggest you visit Stena Lines website?
www.stenaline.co.uk

Also for anybody interested, Sail and Coach fares are advertised.

Its £54 return Glasgow to Belfast with the train. If you book at least 7 days in advance, you can do it online, otherwise call the number provided on the website.
Everything seems to be available. No stitch up, no scrapping rail sail fares.