Study to consider Borders Railway extension

[adrock1976]

I may have posted in this particular thread a long time ago that I feel it would be better for a bus link between Hawick and Carlisle running on a 2 hourly frequency. This can be integrated with the rail fares possibly a "Route: via Hawick bus" or something to that effect.

This would be a cheaper method of providing a route between Hawick and Carlisle than reinstating the track.

 

[backontrack]

I may have posted in this particular thread a long time ago that I feel it would be better for a bus link between Hawick and Carlisle running on a 2 hourly frequency. This can be integrated with the rail fares possibly a "Route: via Hawick bus" or something to that effect.

This would be a cheaper method of providing a route between Hawick and Carlisle than reinstating the track.

Doesn't the X95 already do that?

 

[whitrope69]

I may have posted in this particular thread a long time ago that I feel it would be better for a bus link between Hawick and Carlisle running on a 2 hourly frequency. This can be integrated with the rail fares possibly a "Route: via Hawick bus" or something to that effect.

This would be a cheaper method of providing a route between Hawick and Carlisle than reinstating the track.

It does indeed and I must say since Border Buses replaced First its now a friendly, reliable and well used bus route.

 

[tomatwark]

It still might happen

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-43822087

Things about this report.

One the road improvements have been talked about for years, so really a lot of money has been spent going over old ground.

The other interesting one is linking to the East Coast Main line, is there any more chance of this happening that the route being opened back to Carlisle ?

 

[najaB]

The other interesting one is linking to the East Coast Main line, is there any more chance of this happening that the route being opened back to Carlisle ?

If you've got as far as Hawick then the geography works against reaching the ECML.

 

[tomatwark]

I would have thought they were talking about going to Berwick via Kelso

 

[oldman]

I notice one of the options for further consideration is to provide new stations on the existing Borders line, though qualified by 'This option would also be dependent on planned residential and economic development and uptake along the rail corridor'. Are there any serious plans here?

The five Borders rail options are extension SW, extension SE, improved service on existing, new stations, through trains to Fife and maybe Glasgow (!). Others include improvements to the A1, A7 and A68.

 

[snowball]

Press release with link to draft report text:

https://www.transport.gov.scot/news/borders-transport-study-reaches-important-milestone/

Improving bus services to Edinburgh, Newcastle and Carlisle and to hospitals serving the Borders area, along with enhanced park and ride facilities and an active travel network across the Borders council area are among 21 options recommended for further appraisal work in the Borders Transport Corridors study draft report.

Other options that have emerged and are worthy of further consideration include dualling the remaining sections of the A1 between Dunbar and the border, improvements to the A7 and A68 and proposals for extending the Borders railway.

The recommendations from the study, published in draft today for a six week consultation with stakeholders and the public, will be considered as part of the forthcoming Scotland-wide review of the Strategic Transport Projects Review (STPR2).

Transport Minister Humza Yousaf said:

"In our Programme for Government a commitment was given to consider the future transport needs of the Scottish Borders including examining the case for extending the Borders railway along with potential improvements to the A1, A7 and A68. This was on top of the commitments already made, such as East Linton and Reston Stations, as part of a programme of works aimed at improving capacity to the east of Edinburgh.

“This report is an important milestone in delivering that commitment. The Borders Transport Corridors study considered a number of issues including accessibility in the Borders and links between its communities and the key markets of Edinburgh, Carlisle and Newcastle.

“The draft study has identified a range of options, including improved bus services, active travel, road and rail infrastructure in the region, which will be taken forward for more detailed appraisal in the second Strategic Transport Projects Review. This national review will ensure that we deliver transport improvements for all of Scotland which are fit for the 21st Century.

“The study has been developed in partnership with Scottish Borders Council and SEStran and I was delighted to see the level of public interest. We will be continuing to engage and there is now an opportunity for all to comment on these 21 options and I would encourage anyone with an interest to have their say.”

The consultation period for comments on the draft study ends on Friday 1 June.

I haven't read the draft yet.

 

[whitrope69]

A report about doing a study and a further report really.

 

[Altnabreac]

I notice one of the options for further consideration is to provide new stations on the existing Borders line, though qualified by 'This option would also be dependent on planned residential and economic development and uptake along the rail corridor'. Are there any serious plans here?

The five Borders rail options are extension SW, extension SE, improved service on existing, new stations, through trains to Fife and maybe Glasgow (!). Others include improvements to the A1, A7 and A68.

There was a plan for a new station at Redheugh between Gorebridge and Newtongrange by Midlohtian Council that was fairly serious and linked to a major new housing development but I assume that would be outwith the study area for this report.

Fountainhall and Heriot would seem the only possible Borders station locations and neither of them have any significant housing expansion planned.

Another longshot might be a Galashiels west station with some associated housing but it would only be about a mile from the main Galashiels station so doesn't seem a great option either.

Overall the new stations option seems very unlikely to progress through any sifting process.

 

[Altnabreac]

For me there are two very interesting sentences in the report that explain exactly why the south of Hawick reopening would not be a success:

3.4.20 Summary of Key Points – Traffic and Transport
Borders Rail has experienced significant growth in passenger numbers, and is primarily used by commuters

3.5.19 Travel-to-Work Patterns (2011 Census)
Travel-to-work patterns for Scottish Borders residents
Midlothian (1,100 people or 2%)
City of Edinburgh (4,100 people or 8%)
Less than 100 people travel to Carlisle for work.

Once you take those two pieces if information together you have an explanation as to why south of Hawick won't work.

On the other hand though there is some data in there about how the strong numbers at Tweedbank may be due to higher than expected demand from areas south of Tweedbank such as Selkirk, Kelso and Hawick. That may point to a better than previously thought business case for extension as far as Hawick. We'll see in the next phase.

I suspect the two roads schemes that will progress will be A1 dualling and Selkirk Bypass.

The document also gives strong support for Reston (and East Linton in Midlothian) station reopenings by basically including them in the do minimum base case and assuming they will definitely happen.

 

[railjock]

For me there are two very interesting sentences in the report that explain exactly why the south of Hawick reopening would not be a success:

3.4.20 Summary of Key Points – Traffic and Transport
Borders Rail has experienced significant growth in passenger numbers, and is primarily used by commuters

3.5.19 Travel-to-Work Patterns (2011 Census)
Travel-to-work patterns for Scottish Borders residents
Midlothian (1,100 people or 2%)
City of Edinburgh (4,100 people or 8%)
Less than 100 people travel to Carlisle for work.

Once you take those two pieces if information together you have an explanation as to why south of Hawick won't work.

On the other hand though there is some data in there about how the strong numbers at Tweedbank may be due to higher than expected demand from areas south of Tweedbank such as Selkirk, Kelso and Hawick. That may point to a better than previously thought business case for extension as far as Hawick. We'll see in the next phase.

I suspect the two roads schemes that will progress will be A1 dualling and Selkirk Bypass.

The document also gives strong support for Reston (and East Linton in Midlothian) station reopenings by basically including them in the do minimum base case and assuming they will definitely happen.

I thought there was already a commitment to re-opening Reston and East Linton.

 

[railjock]

There was a plan for a new station at Redheugh between Gorebridge and Newtongrange by Midlohtian Council that was fairly serious and linked to a major new housing development but I assume that would be outwith the study area for this report.

Fountainhall and Heriot would seem the only possible Borders station locations and neither of them have any significant housing expansion planned.

Another longshot might be a Galashiels west station with some associated housing but it would only be about a mile from the main Galashiels station so doesn't seem a great option either.

Overall the new stations option seems very unlikely to progress through any sifting process.

Is Galashiels ‘West’ any further from the existing station than Redheugh would be from Nitten?

 

[Altnabreac]

I thought there was already a commitment to re-opening Reston and East Linton.

Commitment yes, but they're not built yet.

 

[edwin_m]

The document also gives strong support for Reston (and East Linton in Midlothian) station reopenings by basically including them in the do minimum base case and assuming they will definitely happen.

I thought there was already a commitment to re-opening Reston and East Linton.

Commitment yes, but they're not built yet.

If they are committed schemes they are obliged to put them in the base case or the study won't be valid. Doing so doesn't say anything about whether the study supports them, it just recognises that they will be built anyway. Having said that, I'm not sure anyone has yet worked out how they will be served...

 

[BigCj34]

As far as populations are concerned, going from Tweedbank to Berwick-upon-Tweed with an additional Jedburgh branch would appears to serve far more people than extending from Hawick to Carlisle, though I have no idea how difficult it would be to reinstate in comparison. I do not see why people don't campaign for that more.

 

[tomatwark]

Reopening the line to Berwick I think would probably be a non starter.

Firstly the station in Berwick is in the wrong place for it as the the trains through Kelso went to Tweedmouth.

The junction was the wrong way for Berwick station, so you would need to correct this or build a new station.

It is not that far to drive from Kelso to Tweedbank ( Less if the route to Hawick was opened as you could get on the train further south) and from Coldstream to Berwick if you wanted to catch the train.

However if it was opened with a view to having a service from Newcastle to Edinburgh it might work, as people from the Borders may use it to go to Newcastle and possibly the airport.

 

[railjock]

Reopening the line to Berwick I think would probably be a non starter.

Firstly the station in Berwick is in the wrong place for it as the the trains through Kelso went to Tweedmouth.

The junction was the wrong way for Berwick station, so you would need to correct this or build a new station.

It is not that far to drive from Kelso to Tweedbank ( Less if the route to Hawick was opened as you could get on the train further south) and from Coldstream to Berwick if you wanted to catch the train.

However if it was opened with a view to having a service from Newcastle to Edinburgh it might work, as people from the Borders may use it to go to Newcastle and possibly the airport.

A non starter imo.

 

[Steamysandy]

There's also a big chunk of embankment missing at the Tweedmouth end and the stations at Kelso and Coldstreamare on the wrong side of the Tweed.Half of its in England as well!

 

[EIKN]

How about a fork type extension , one to Hawick The other to Tweedmouth.
With private sector funding Carlisle to Hawick.

 

[najaB]

With private sector funding Carlisle to Hawick.

Wouldn't it be simpler for the companies to just put their cash in a pile and burn it?

 

[Chris999999]

How about a fork type extension , one to Hawick The other to Tweedmouth.
With private sector funding Carlisle to Hawick.

I can understand why you don't believe the public sector would fund Carlisle to Hawick, but why do you think the Private Sector would? Have you any Private Sector companies in mind?

 

[edwin_m]

Pivate sector companies are run for the benefit of their shareholders and will only "fund" something if the company concerned expects to make a profit.

In theory this profit could arise from fares and freight revenues, but even for a much more remunerative route than Borders the revenue stream would be far far below what is needed to pay back the cost of the construction. If this wasn't so then private companies would be clamouring to build railways all over the UK.

It is also possible for a government to do a PFI-type deal where the private sector builds something and charges the public sector for its use. This may result in lower costs due to the private sector finding more efficiencient ways of building and operating, but in many cases it's just a way of the government avoiding the short-term cost and paying it back at "credit card rates of interest". Either way the taxpayer picks up the tab in the end.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

Just saw this in Rail Magazine from the recent meeting in Carlisle regarding the line.

The Campaign for Borders Rail organised an event in Carlisle on May 22 to discuss the potential for reopening the entire former ‘Waverley Route’.

Carlisle MP John Stevenson was told about the successful reopening of the route from Edinburgh to Tweedbank, as well as the potential benefits to the Scottish Borders and Cumbria of extending the line.

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/mps-back-waverley-route-reopening

 

[47271]

Just saw this in Rail Magazine from the recent meeting in Carlisle regarding the line.



https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/mps-back-waverley-route-reopening

Carlisle Airport? I thought, nah, why would anyone want to go there, but I looked it up, news hot off the press:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-44293635

Air traffic staff shortage delays Carlisle flights launch

The start of passenger flights from Carlisle Lake District Airport has been delayed due to a shortage of air traffic control staff.

Stobart Group had announced Loganair routes to Dublin, Belfast and London Southend would start on 4 June.

The company said it made the decision to postpone the launch until September "with enormous regret".

Loganair said booked passengers would be offered a refund or alternative flights from Manchester or Glasgow.

'Changing circumstances'
Kate Willard, from Stobart Group, said: "This major project to launch air services from a new airport relies not only on the airport's infrastructure being complete but also on a full complement of essential operational staff being in place.

"Regrettably, changing circumstances around staffing means that this cannot be completed in time for the airport to receive scheduled flights as planned, despite every possible human effort being made."

Loganair's managing director Jonathan Hinkles added: "We're working hard to inform all passengers and we completely appreciate the frustration which disruption to travel plans can cause.

"We have taken the decision to delay to September to provide the greatest level of certainty that the new target date for the introduction of services will be met, allowing the travelling public to book with confidence."

 

[EIKN]

You could not make that up. And this coming from the airport where a senior manager was boasting to me and a friend how they are offering easyJet the same ' deal ' as Southend ( their other airports).
Eg free slots no fees NADA . Just offer routes and we don't charge you useage .
Plus they are chasing other routes hard.
And he even told me they hoped to entice another Irish Airline.
Well since they are part owners with Are Lingus of their own fleet , it's not Set Lingus .
So why Ryanair would want to operate there I cannot say.
Unless they call it Glasgow south or Newcastle West ( slight humour there).
But honestly they haven't even got full approach lighting yet on runway 24 ( now 06/24 .
Neat job though .
Interestingly in rail circles their Stobart rail hq is moving into the small section of terminal set aside for offices .
Looking at the number of aircraft stands , they may be hopeful.
But to not have enough ATC staff is beyond a joke and almost as bad as the New Berlin Brandenburg Airport fiasco .
A decade under construction and may need flattening !.

 

[Altfish]

IIRC Stobarts have two other depots in Carlisle already so with a third at the airport there must be a possibility of commercial use with flights for parcels and the like.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Now you could use a link from Kielder forest straight to Carlisle Airport for the incredible lucrative High Speed Transatlantic Log Trade... Call it the North Cumbria - Hawick Alnwick New Commercial Exercise (No-CHANCE for short)

 

[och aye]

Any news on the reports findings being published, or have I just missed them?

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

Just been mentioned during PMQ’s.

PM asked about funding in any Borderlands Growth Deal on extension of Borders Railway to Carlisle. PM says all parties need to come to a sensible agreement on the development and says UK and Scottish gov't continue to work on Borderlands deal details. #PMQs

https://twitter.com/bbcrichardmoss/status/1037300110684835840?s=21