Study to investigate re-opening Gobowen to Welshpool line

[Matt P]

Probably a little off topic, but why were passenger services withdrawn between Oswestry and Gobowen in the first place? I have a copy of the Beeching Report but unless I am missing something, the line is not listed in Section 1 and Oswestry station is not listed in Section 3 for passenger service withdrawal - unlike the neighbouring Whitchurch-Welshpool.

I am well aware that other lines not listed in the report subsequently closed, as well as visa versa. However Beeching usually gets the blame for Oswestry to Gobowen, probably because it was a mid 1960's closure, but it would appear to be no entirely accurate. So at what point was the decision taken to close it?

The fact that it closed just under 2 years after Whitchurch to Welshpool and other local lines (Ruabon to Barmouth) would suggest to me it was initially planned to keep it open but that it was British Rail who had a change of heart?

Was it (as I was once told) that BR didnt want the inconvenience of running a DMU from Shrewsbury or Chester to Oswestry in the morning and back again at night - which would seem to be a poor excuse to me if true or an even poorer/none existent reason.

 

[snowball]

and before any trains can run, new underpasses or overbridges will have to be constructed over two trunk roads and paid for by the railway charity. I think we're in for a very, very long wait.

Indeed the order allowing CHRL to reopen the line is conditional on them not crossing the A5 or A483 on the level.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cambrian-railways-gobowen-and-blodwel-branch

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Probably a little off topic, but why were passenger services withdrawn between Oswestry and Gobowen in the first place? I have a copy of the Beeching Report but unless I am missing something, the line is not listed in Section 1 and Oswestry station is not listed in Section 3 for passenger service withdrawal - unlike the neighbouring Whitchurch-Welshpool.

I am well aware that other lines not listed in the report subsequently closed, as well as visa versa. However Beeching usually gets the blame for Oswestry to Gobowen, probably because it was a mid 1960's closure, but it would appear to be no entirely accurate.

Dr.Beeching usually gets blamed for every rail closure, partly because his detractors love to vilify him and paint him as the devil's agent and partly because some people are too lazy to check when a line was closed.

The plain truth is that railway lines and stations were being closed long, long before Dr. Beeching appeared on the scene. Many of the lines and stations which closed after he returned to I.C.I. were not in his list of redundant and non-viable infrastructure; the prime example being what is now called East-West Rail.

 

[yorksrob]

Dr.Beeching usually gets blamed for every rail closure, partly because his detractors love to vilify him and paint him as the devil's agent and partly because some people are too lazy to check when a line was closed.

The plain truth is that railway lines and stations were being closed long, long before Dr. Beeching appeared on the scene. Many of the lines and stations which closed after he returned to I.C.I. were not in his list of redundant and non-viable infrastructure; the prime example being what is now called East-West Rail.

One has to remember that as the Chairman of the organisation, Dr Beeching set the ethos of the organisation, long after he ran it.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

One has to remember that as the Chairman of the organisation, Dr Beeching set the ethos of the organisation, long after he ran it.

That does not explain the closures that occurred before he arrived. Nor does it explain why lines and stations he decided should remain open were closed anyway. Clearly, it at least one respect, his successors decided not to be influenced by his example.

 

[transmanche]

So the consensus seems to be
Good case for reconnecting Oswestry to the main line at Gobowen.
Possible case for a through service beyond, but unclear which way.
No real case for Oswestry to Welshpool.

Pretty good assessment. Oswestry to Welshpool is more expensive because the track isn't in place and Welshpool isn't enough of a destination in its own right to be worth doing that rail link.

TBH, I don't think the track currently in situ between Oswestry and Gobowen is suitable for use and would probably need to be re-laid. I can't speak for the state of the rails, but having walked along trackbed from Oswestry towards the A5, many of the sleepers are in a very poor state.

If having to change train didn't put (so many) potential travellers off it might be worthwhile, but as it is you might need lots of additional double track on the Cambrian line to allow the train to run through to Aberystwyth

I think any business case for Oswestry-Welshpool which relied solely on local traffic would fail.

But what might make re-opening the route viable is the potential to generate longer-distance traffic. Gobowen to Welshpool direct could be half an hour or more faster than via Shrewsbury - which might encourage more weekenders travelling to Aberystwyth or the Cambrian Coast from Chester or Liverpool. Oswestry folk might save an hour or more on a journey to Aberystwyth (when you factor in the time saved in not having to travel out to Gobowen) which would encourage day trips that may not be practical at present.

Thankfully, accurately estimating that potential is not my problem!

 

[transmanche]

I can only go on what friends who live and work in and around Oswestry tell me.

Same here.

Going to Chester seems generally reserved for a "special" day out, and they don't even think about "going south"!

Whereas, people I know would regularly visit Shrewsbury and would be more likely to visit Ludlow than Wrexham!

I guess all that proves is that anecdotal evidence isn't necessarily helpful.

 

[krus_aragon]

Where does that come from? It isn't on the slide I'm looking at; the Liverpool route is only stated to be 1tph to Chester (from Dec 2018) and to Llandudno (from Dec 2022). The box which talks about Liverpool via Wrexham says this:
I make that only 0.5tph betweeen Liverpool and Shrewsbury. It's unclear if that would be a portion off the Llandudno service or part of a half-hourly Liverpool-Chester service.

I think there's an error in your quotation. The sources I recall all give 1tph from Liverpool to Shrewsbury, with alternate trains extending to Cardiff. See this TfW page for example.

The hourly service from Liverpool will split at Chester to serve both Llandudno and Shrewsbury/Cardiff.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whereas, people I know would regularly visit Shrewsbury and would be more likely to visit Ludlow than Wrexham!

I guess all that proves is that anecdotal evidence isn't necessarily helpful.

It says that you have more discerning friends.....

 

[Matt P]

That does not explain the closures that occurred before he arrived. Nor does it explain why lines and stations he decided should remain open were closed anyway. Clearly, it at least one respect, his successors decided not to be influenced by his example.

And is doesnt specifically explain the closure of Oswestry-Gobowen to passengers.

My personal view is that in addition to any 'official' reason, by 1966 a degree of momentum had been gained behind closure which enabled BR to look to trim beyond the Beeching identified dead wood.

 

[The_Engineer]

And is doesnt specifically explain the closure of Oswestry-Gobowen to passengers.

My personal view is that in addition to any 'official' reason, by 1966 a degree of momentum had been gained behind closure which enabled BR to look to trim beyond the Beeching identified dead wood.

One good reason for the longer survival of the Gobowen to Oswestry branch could well be that the Oswestry locomotive works also closed at the same time as the branch passenger service. The branch service as perhaps a factor in getting the workers to the locomotive works. Also, the branch provided the only access by rail for the works so - once gone - could be another economic factor against retaining the branch passenger service….. I can recall travelling the branch in this period by DMU and still seeing locomotives under overhaul at the works.

 

[Matt P]

The most frustrating thing with any idea of reinstating services on this route is that were it not for the A5 level crossing, setting up a trial run shuttle for a 2-5 year period would be relatively straightforward - or perhaps it would have been 20yrs or so ago when deterioration of the infrastructure would have been less of an issue.

In fact go back to the mid-80s and a trial of shuttles and direct services to Shrewsbury, Wrexham or Chester (perhaps timed for certain times of year - Christmas shopping etc) would have been straightforward. The signalling and track layout at Gobowen having not changed significantly since shuttles were withdrawn in 1966.

 

[AndrewE]

In fact go back to the mid-80s and a trial of shuttles and direct services to Shrewsbury, Wrexham or Chester (perhaps timed for certain times of year - Christmas shopping etc) would have been straightforward.

apart from the fact that the mid-80s is about when spare rolling stock started being eliminated as an unnecessary expense. Trains stopped running at "certain times of the year" because maintaining the stock could not be justified. I don't know when stock availability exists now, as maintenance has to be done and I think that happens between the Friday evening flow and Sunday midday (not counting "maintenance spare" sets.) Commuter EMUs and DMUs might have some availability on Saturdays I guess.

 

[Matt P]

One good reason for the longer survival of the Gobowen to Oswestry branch could well be that the Oswestry locomotive works also closed at the same time as the branch passenger service. The branch service as perhaps a factor in getting the workers to the locomotive works. Also, the branch provided the only access by rail for the works so - once gone - could be another economic factor against retaining the branch passenger service….. I can recall travelling the branch in this period by DMU and still seeing locomotives under overhaul at the works.

It was something that had crossed my mind, and it would give some credence to the suggestion it was an economy measure to avoid having to run an empty DMU to/from Gobowen each day.

What I dont know is whether the DMU stabled at Oswestry?
Given that the line stayed open anyway, surely the infrastructure costs of retaining the passenger service wouldn't have been that great. All station staffing at Oswestry could still have been ended, with tickets sold by a conductor/guard and later on ticket machines.

Perhaps the branch would have needed to have retained some signalling at Oswestry given that freight continued until 1971, but both of Oswestry's signal boxes were in use until 1970 anyway and post 1971 any retained signal box would only have needed to be staffed to allow the passage of stone trains to Blodwell. As for running a DMU to/from Gobowen, then it could have been run as a timetabled through working rather than empty or run attached to the first and last train of the day, splitting/joining at Gobowen.

Overall the costs of maintaining the service, once revenue from it is accounted for, does not seem to be significant given the most of the infrastructure remaining in place for quite some time after it was withdrawn. It is as if the only real reason for withdrawal is that BR couldnt be bothered to run it!

 

[The_Engineer]

What I dont know is whether the DMU stabled at Oswestry?

DMU and crew came from Wrexham

 

[Rhydgaled]

TBH, I don't think the track currently in situ between Oswestry and Gobowen is suitable for use and would probably need to be re-laid.

That may well be true, but relaying track (where it is needed, even if that's the whole route) and patching lineside fencing where necessary is still a fair bit easier/cheaper than buying land, repairing any earthworks that have been messed with and rebuilding missing bridges that would be necessary on the bit that has been pulled up.

I think any business case for Oswestry-Welshpool which relied solely on local traffic would fail.

But what might make re-opening the route viable is the potential to generate longer-distance traffic. Gobowen to Welshpool direct could be half an hour or more faster than via Shrewsbury - which might encourage more weekenders travelling to Aberystwyth or the Cambrian Coast from Chester or Liverpool.

Agreed. The issue is that pepole making longer-distance trips would have to change at Welshpool unless additional double track was put in place on the Cambrian Main Line to allow Oswestry trains to travel further west. Even if such additional capacity was available, would the existing Cambrian stations want it used for more trains to/from Shrewsbury instead?

I think there's an error in your quotation. The sources I recall all give 1tph from Liverpool to Shrewsbury, with alternate trains extending to Cardiff. See this TfW page for example.

The hourly service from Liverpool will split at Chester to serve both Llandudno and Shrewsbury/Cardiff.

Ok; TfW's website is directly contradicting the presentation to AMs that I'm looking at (it was taken offline, but somebody uploaded it to the forum and I've downloaded it from here). Both seem to be official sources; I wonder which one is wrong.

 

[transmanche]

The issue is that pepole making longer-distance trips would have to change at Welshpool unless additional double track was put in place on the Cambrian Main Line to allow Oswestry trains to travel further west. Even if such additional capacity was available, would the existing Cambrian stations want it used for more trains to/from Shrewsbury instead?

There's the possibility of doing a split/join at Welshpool. (And of course, any stock used would need to ETCS-equipped too.)

Finger in the air time. Can 6-car units operate on the Cambrian? (E.g. a 2-car unit joining 4-cars at Welshpool, with 4 cars continuing to Aberystwyth and 2 for the Coast line?)

 

[Rhydgaled]

There's the possibility of doing a split/join at Welshpool. (And of course, any stock used would need to ETCS-equipped too.)

I think that could result in a 'capacity invertion'; where the long train carries less passengers than the shorter one. The same is true of the suggestions I've read elsewhere on this forum for a train from Llandudno or Holyhead to both Birmingham and Manchester, splitting at Chester (if you did that with 2-car units, Chester to north Wales would have a 4-car train but Chester to Manchester/Birmingham would each be 2-car trains. A bit topsy-turvy.).

An interesting question there; how do the loadings on the current services west of Welshpool compare to loadings between Welshpool and Shrewsbury?

Finger in the air time. Can 6-car units operate on the Cambrian? (E.g. a 2-car unit joining 4-cars at Welshpool, with 4 cars continuing to Aberystwyth and 2 for the Coast line?)

It has been done. A few years back one service from Aberystwyth to Birmingham was booked for a 4-car 158 with another 158 joining at Machynlleth if I recall correctly. I think there were some problems at Caersws when that was introduced, so I don't know if it still happens. That's another problem with portion-working with a Welshpool-Oswestry-Wrexham; the Cambrian trains may already be longer than 4-cars by the time any line is (re)built. From my limited and slightly out-of-date experience, I think the Aberystwyth portion could do with being a 3-car unit (except that ATW don't have any of the 3-car 158s and GWR's hybrid solution looks messy) almost all of the time; possibly the coast portion too in winter. I suppose if you didn't also improve the Cambrian Coast service at all that would allow an Oswestry/Wrexham portion every two hours, so that departures from Aberystwyth look like this:

• Every two hours, 5-car train, 2 coaches detach at Welshpool (for Wrexham), 3 coaches attach at Shrewsbury (from Chester/Holyhead) giving 6 coaches from SHR to BHI.
• Every two hours, 3-car train, 2 coaches attach at Machynlleth (from Pwllheli), giving 5 coaches from Mach. to BHI

The first one is likely to be fairly empty from Aberystwyth to Newtown, and fairly full from Welshpool to Shrewsbury.

 

[Llanigraham]

6 car units do occasionally run on the Cambrian; it is just a case of inputting the right length of unit into the system (Gest)
(Confirmed by a friend that does it)
There used to be a problem at Caersws but that has now been resolved.

 

[krus_aragon]

Ok; TfW's website is directly contradicting the presentation to AMs that I'm looking at (it was taken offline, but somebody uploaded it to the forum and I've downloaded it from here). Both seem to be official sources; I wonder which one is wrong.

In support of your case, the appendix to Ken Skates' statement to the Assembly makes the same claim:

Cardiff Central–Liverpool via Wrexham General
-
New service 0.5tph Cardiff-Liverpool, 0.5tph Shrewsbury–Cardiff

But if that's true (and it's only 1.5tph through Wrexham) then the Holyhead-Birmingham must either be altered or removed.

If altered, surely they'd have found a way to spin it to announce the benefits of the change. (Replaced with a local stopper? Interwork with the Conwy Valley service like in BR days and you can boast direct service between Holyhead and Llandudno or Blaenau Ffestiniog.) If removed, then that leaves Bangor-Holyhead at 0.5tph, and what happens to the Shrewsbury-Birmingham bit? If it were to be merged with the hourly service to Aberystwyth, the same document wouldn't boast of a "consistent 1tph Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury".

I'm minded to say that the 0.5/0.5tph is the mistake. Maybe they lost the middle of the sentence? There will be 0.5tph Cardiff to Liverpool (thanks to 1tph Shrewsbury-Liverpool, half of which will be extended to give an additional) 0.5tph Shrewsbury-Cardiff.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is there any part of EC economic policy that deals with transport in the peripheral areas of the EC that attaches economic benefits to a sea and rail transport link between Holyhead and Eire?

 

[krus_aragon]

Is there any part of EC economic policy that deals with transport in the peripheral areas of the EC that attaches economic benefits to a sea and rail transport link between Holyhead and Eire?

I thought it formed a portion of the E22 euroroute, but on checking my facts the E22 starts at Holyhead. The E20 runs Shannon-Dublin and then follows the ferry to Liverpool instead.

 

[Rhydgaled]

if that's true (and it's only 1.5tph through Wrexham) then the Holyhead-Birmingham must either be altered or removed.

Sorry, I don't understand. Why would the Holyhead-Birmingham need to be changed or removed? 2tph through Wrexham minus 0.5tph from Liverpool equals 1.5tph. If you also removed the Holyhead-Birmingham it would only be 1tph through Wrexham.

The lack of comment regarding Holyhead-Birmingham suggests that service will be staying untouched. If that is the case then, if anything, that points to Liverpool-Shrewsbury only being 0.5tph as the Holyhead-Birmingham will be taking up a path on the single-track bottleneck north of Wrexham, leaving less room for extra services from Liverpool.

 

[krus_aragon]

Sorry, I don't understand. Why would the Holyhead-Birmingham need to be changed or removed? 2tph through Wrexham minus 0.5tph from Liverpool equals 1.5tph. If you also removed the Holyhead-Birmingham it would only be 1tph through Wrexham.

The lack of comment regarding Holyhead-Birmingham suggests that service will be staying untouched. If that is the case then, if anything, that points to Liverpool-Shrewsbury only being 0.5tph as the Holyhead-Birmingham will be taking up a path on the single-track bottleneck north of Wrexham, leaving less room for extra services from Liverpool.

Sorry. My calculation 2tph-0.5tph=1.5tph was based on 1tph Shrewsbury-Liverpool, which I didn't make clear.

if you're right that LIV-SHR is only 0.5tph then both HHD-BHM and HHD-CDF can remain, without exceeding 1.5tph through Wrexham. I'd been surprised that they were going to put 2tph along the Chester-Wrexham single line; they were targeting 2tph with the redoubling but I thought it was later descoped due to cost and overruns.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If anyone wants a good example of a reopened line being a success, I would cite the Clitheroe line in Lancashire that has services into Blackburn, Bolton and Manchester.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Train service improvements include:

• Introducing a new 1tph service from Chester to Liverpool Lime Street in December 2018.
  
• Revising timetables in December 2022 to introduce a new Liverpool to Llandudno and Shrewsbury service (1tph) and Liverpool to Cardiff (1 train every 2 hours), plus direct services between Manchester Airport and Bangor.

That's on TfW's website. There 1 tph through Gobowen from Liverpool to Chester that extends to Cardiff every two hours.

 

[krus_aragon]

That's on TfW's website. There 1 tph through Gobowen from Liverpool to Chester that extends to Cardiff every two hours.

Which seems to conflict with Annex A of Ken Skates' statement to the Assembly:

Cardiff Central–Liverpool via Wrexham General
-
New service 0.5tph Cardiff-Liverpool, 0.5tph Shrewsbury–Cardiff

and also the private slideshow briefing (which I no longer have a copy of. Would any kind soul care to forward a copy my way?) which Rhydgaled tells us gives much the same message.

One possible way of squaring the circle would be if we had:
0.5tph Holyhead-Birmingham
0.5tph Holyhead-Cardiff
0.5tph Liverpool-Shrewsbury
0.5tph Liverpool-Cardiff
and also:
0.5tph Shrewsbury-Cardiff

Then both sources could be correct in what they say. (That'd be 2tph CTR-SHR, and 2.5TPH SHR-CDF by my reckoning)

 

[Gareth Marston]

Which seems to conflict with Annex A of Ken Skates' statement to the Assembly:

and also the private slideshow briefing (which I no longer have a copy of. Would any kind soul care to forward a copy my way?) which Rhydgaled tells us gives much the same message.

One possible way of squaring the circle would be if we had:
0.5tph Holyhead-Birmingham
0.5tph Holyhead-Cardiff
0.5tph Liverpool-Shrewsbury
0.5tph Liverpool-Cardiff
and also:
0.5tph Shrewsbury-Cardiff

Then both sources could be correct in what they say. (That'd be 2tph CTR-SHR, and 2.5TPH SHR-CDF by my reckoning)

PM we your e mail address for the slide show.

You've got an extra 0.5 tph Shrewsbury to Cardiff in there.

 

[A0]

Here's the Torys road shopping list for Shropshire.

Dualling the A5 from Shrewsbury to Welsh Border.
A483. Bypass around Pant/Llanymynech.
A458 Buttington to Wollaston scheme.
Shrewsbury North West Relief Road
A new link road from the M54 to the M6

And no doubt a few others. That's easily pushing close to a £ billion.
£20 odd million toget Oswestry back on the network is a bargain.

Paradoxically the A5 dualling might actually help the CHRS - because IF there is a large amount of work needed to upgrade the road - which I seem to recall there will be - then getting a 'path' left underneath the road may actually be something which can be done as part of the dualling which will be both cheaper and easier than trying to 'bridge' the road as a standalone project.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Paradoxically the A5 dualling might actually help the CHRS - because IF there is a large amount of work needed to upgrade the road - which I seem to recall there will be - then getting a 'path' left underneath the road may actually be something which can be done as part of the dualling which will be both cheaper and easier than trying to 'bridge' the road as a standalone project.

but what will be the "opportunity cost" to rail generally of spending hug sums on road projects? Its costing £50 million a mile plus to convert a short stretch of the A465 into dual carriageway in South Wales