Study to investigate re-opening Gobowen to Welshpool line

[Llanigraham]

Yes, that would be my thought. Obviously both options would be doable, however I was thinking about onward connections towards Birmingham and London as well.

Why do you think residents of Owsestry would want to go to Shrewsbury, when most of them "centre" on Wrexham as there large local town?

 

[yorksrob]

That is a most sudden turn of events. Why not add Cardiff and Milford Haven whilst this matter is fresh in mind.

To be fair, Cardiff is one of the many places which could be easily reached via a connection at Shrewsbury.

 

[yorksrob]

That would get the vote in Oswestry. The 2 tph plan will see 1 tph to Holyhead and 1 tph to Liverpool north of Gobowen with 1 tph to Cardiff, 0.5 tph to Birmingham INL and 0.5 tph terminating at Shrewsbury south of it.

Well, those are certainly the sort of corridors the route should be serving.

 

[RT4038]

Why on earth would anyone want to spend money on increasing the size of the railway system? We can't run the system we do have reliably and value for money. The population does not want to be held ransom to Civil Servants, Management or Staff involved in the railways. Get rid of them. Spend the money on roads please.

 

[Clayton]

Why on earth would anyone want to spend money on increasing the size of the railway system? We can't run the system we do have reliably and value for money. The population does not want to be held ransom to Civil Servants, Management or Staff involved in the railways. Get rid of them. Spend the money on roads please.

Why on earth would anyone want to spend money on increasing the size of the railway system? We can't run the system we do have reliably and value for money. The population does not want to be held ransom to Civil Servants, Management or Staff involved in the railways. Get rid of them. Spend the money on roads please.

Ha ha! Think you’re on the wrong site sonny

 

[Rhydgaled]

the argument that they pollute the environment and disadvantage people who can't drive will disappear when we have electric driverless cars. Whether we ever will have such things is another question!

No, not really. Pepole who can't drive would benifit from driverless vehicles yes, but they aren't the magic bullet some pepole make them out to be.

At the moment most cars are powered by petrol/diesel, and buses (and rural trains) are powered by... diesel. Buses and (in the right circumstances) trains pollute the environment LESS than cars, but they still pollute a bit. Electrification (of cars, buses and trains) will make all modes less polluting, but the electricity has to come from somewhere; there will still be an environmental impact associated with that and it will still be more efficient to move a number of pepole in a single vehicle rather than individually in lots of smaller ones. Plus, while driverless cars will in theory be able to run closer together due to a big reduction in the 'thinking distance', that only really helps at high speeds. At low speeds, you will not increase the capacity of a given amount of road space very much (if at all) so congestion would still be a problem, leading for calls for more road space. More road space means... more concrete/tarmac. And, guess what, making concrete is polluting! Also, hard surfaces are said to increase flood risk since the water can't soak away (a different kind of environmental problem).

If we accept that a well patronised bus service means that the service is good enough (thus no need to reopen the railway), it becomes difficult to identify when a railway would be needed. If the bus service wasn't good enough, and thus not well patronised, how would one distinguish between a situation where the poor bus service suppresses demand, and a situation where there is little demand in the first place?

Without a proper case-by-case look at specific routes (which you would need to do) I think the default position should be something like this (but I have probably over-simplified considerably):

• if there is an infrequent, lightly-used, bus service then a better bus service is needed
• if there is a frequent, lightly-used, bus service but alot of road traffic along the route then the bus service might be too slow, still not good enough in other respects or you need a train
• if there is a frequent, well-used, bus service and not much other road traffic leave well alone
• if there is a frequent, well-used, bus service and lots of other road traffic get a train there sharpish

In the real world, a lightly-used bus service requires a subsidy from taxpayers. A rail service requires a much bigger subsidy.

Which is why the first course of action should be to look at improving the bus service; attract modal shift and thus reduce the subsidy needed to run the buses.

So your idea is that instead of a service from Oswestry to Gobowen and Wrexham, it should be Oswestry to Gobowen and reversal towards Shrewsbury?

That's an interesting question. I had assumed that any rail service from Oswestry would head for Wrexham to avoid a reversal; is demand from Oswestry to Shrewsbury greater than for Wrexham (with connections to Chester)? Also, going to Wrexham is more of a direct route than reversing to serve Shrewsbury, so more likely to be time-competitive.

The 2 tph plan will see 1 tph to Holyhead and 1 tph to Liverpool north of Gobowen with 1 tph to Cardiff, 0.5 tph to Birmingham INL and 0.5 tph terminating at Shrewsbury south of it.

I'm not sure that's right. Page 18 of the ams-wb-overview-presentation says 0.5tph Cardiff-Liverpool and 0.5tph Shrewsbury-Cardiff. I make that 1.5tph between Shrewsbury and Chester, not 2tph. So, heading south from Gobowen, you would have:

• 1tph to Cardiff (0.5tph from Holyhead and 0.5tph from Liverpool)
  
• 0.5tph to Birmingham International

South from Shrewsbury towards Hereford, you would have 2tph to Cardiff, 1tph from Manchester, 0.5tph from Liverpool and 0.5tph Shrewsbury-Cardiff.

 

[transmanche]

Why do you think residents of Owsestry would want to go to Shrewsbury, when most of them "centre" on Wrexham as there large local town?

Do they 'centre' on Wrexham? IME, people from Oswestry are more likely to go to Shrewsbury than to Wrexham. If going north, they're more likely to go all the way to Chester, not Wrexham.

That is, from anecdotal and observational evidence only.

 

[krus_aragon]

I'm not sure that's right. Page 18 of the ams-wb-overview-presentation says 0.5tph Cardiff-Liverpool and 0.5tph Shrewsbury-Cardiff. I make that 1.5tph between Shrewsbury and Chester, not 2tph. So, heading south from Gobowen, you would have:

• 1tph to Cardiff (0.5tph from Holyhead and 0.5tph from Liverpool)
  
• 0.5tph to Birmingham International

South from Shrewsbury towards Hereford, you would have 2tph to Cardiff, 1tph from Manchester, 0.5tph from Liverpool and 0.5tph Shrewsbury-Cardiff.

The current 0.5tph Holyhead to Birmingham is also staying, making a full 2tph. it confused me by being left out of the original announcements (probably because there's no "improvement" to announce about that service) but some subsequent press release confirmed its continuation.

if it were to be dropped, that would leave only 0.5tph between Bangor and Holyhead, with the island's request stops either seeing a drop in service or being served by the (relatively) long Mark 4 rakes.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Why do you think residents of Owsestry would want to go to Shrewsbury, when most of them "centre" on Wrexham as there large local town?

Oswestry has quite a lot going for it as a place in its own right without residents having to focus on a nearby higher ranking settlement (its not Llanidloes!). Oswestry has several larger settlements within 30 miles Chester, Telford,Shrewsbury & Wrexham demand is probably spread over all of them and of course all of them are connected by the same rail service that goes through Gobowen.

Out of all the towns in Mid Wales and the Marches Oswestry is probably the one Ive visited the least in living in the area for 40 years and this is entirely down to not being able to get to it by train.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Having driven down the congested A5 I'd say having a level crossing will be the killer. Unless the road or railway changes level (hideously expensive) this will be a complete non starter.

Pedantry corner: The A5/A483 multiplex is not a dual-carriageway, so the speed limit is 60mph.

The planning permission for the heritage group to run trains requires them to grade-separate the A5/A483 level crossings north and south of Oswestry.
That won't be cheap/easy, and they are planning initially to stop short of the A483 at Weston Wharf.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The current 0.5tph Holyhead to Birmingham is also staying, making a full 2tph.

How does that make a full 2tph? I had Birmingham International on my list of 1.5tph heading south from Gobowen. I'll make another list, this time showing both the start and end points of routes of services heading through Wrexham:

• 0.5tph Liverpool - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Newport - Cardiff
• 0.5tph Holyhead - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Newport - Cardiff
• 0.5tph Holyhead - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Birmingham New Street - Birmingham International

I still only make it 1.5tph through Wrexham and Gobowen.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Why on earth would anyone want to spend money on increasing the size of the railway system? We can't run the system we do have reliably and value for money. The population does not want to be held ransom to Civil Servants, Management or Staff involved in the railways. Get rid of them. Spend the money on roads please.

Has Mr Toad been out in the sun too long?

 

[Gareth Marston]

How does that make a full 2tph? I had Birmingham International on my list of 1.5tph heading south from Gobowen. I'll make another list, this time showing both the start and end points of routes of services heading through Wrexham:

• 0.5tph Liverpool - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Newport - Cardiff
• 0.5tph Holyhead - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Newport - Cardiff
• 0.5tph Holyhead - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Birmingham New Street - Birmingham International

I still only make it 1.5tph through Wrexham and Gobowen.

& 0.5tph Liverpool - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury

 

[30907]

So the consensus seems to be
Good case for reconnecting Oswestry to the main line at Gobowen.
Possible case for a through service beyond, but unclear which way.
No real case for Oswestry to Welshpool.

With 2tph at Gobowen shortly (assuming they will all stop), a realistic aim might be a shuttle service to connect?
Might I make the heretical suggestion that an accessible dedicated bus (please note both adjectives!) running half hourly would be a first step, requiring minimal infrastructure work?

On reflection, it might deviate from the direct route to serve the hospital, which would require a turning facility there.

 

[DavidGrain]

You know the old joke about 'Why was the station built out of town?' 'Because it had to be near the railway'.
I think historically this was the story about Oswestry and Gobowen which is why the GWR had to build the branch line in the first place. The line going south from Oswestry was not a GWR line but a Cambrian Railway line and originally the GWR and the Cambrian had separate stations in Oswestry.

 

[deltic08]

Shrewsbury and Teford are also less than an hours drive from Oswestry.

Only if you have a car and only if you can physically drive a car. Even in this day and age, 69% of single females don't own a car.

 

[wildcard]

Other than the odd weekend heritage service , an Oswestry connection depends on a tunnel under the A5 .This would wreak any rail BCR. I can't see this happening unless its part of an A5 dualing north of Shrewsbury - - which local worthies have also called for .

 

[Gareth Marston]

Other than the odd weekend heritage service , an Oswestry connection depends on a tunnel under the A5 .This would wreak any rail BCR. I can't see this happening unless its part of an A5 dualing north of Shrewsbury - - which local worthies have also called for .

Cambrian Heritage Railway have a Transport and Works Act to do it they just need to raise the £ - BCR is irrelevant.

 

[Gareth Marston]

So the consensus seems to be
Good case for reconnecting Oswestry to the main line at Gobowen.
Possible case for a through service beyond, but unclear which way.
No real case for Oswestry to Welshpool.

With 2tph at Gobowen shortly (assuming they will all stop), a realistic aim might be a shuttle service to connect?
Might I make the heretical suggestion that an accessible dedicated bus (please note both adjectives!) running half hourly would be a first step, requiring minimal infrastructure work?

On reflection, it might deviate from the direct route to serve the hospital, which would require a turning facility there.

The local buses already do that but are not seen as attractive as the town having its railway station back and of course we have all the usual problems of non integration and lack of through ticketing and different agendas.

 

[DavidGrain]

I have now read through the T & W Order and find that it makes interesting reading covering many of the point raised in this thread. I recommend reading it.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...e/595431/cambrian-railway-decision-letter.pdf

 

[Rhydgaled]

& 0.5tph Liverpool - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury

Where does that come from? It isn't on the slide I'm looking at; the Liverpool route is only stated to be 1tph to Chester (from Dec 2018) and to Llandudno (from Dec 2022). The box which talks about Liverpool via Wrexham says this:

Cardiff Central - Liverpool via Wrexham (Dec 2022): New Service. 0.5tph Cardiff - Liverpool, 0.5tph Shrewsbury - Cardiff; most stations

I make that only 0.5tph betweeen Liverpool and Shrewsbury. It's unclear if that would be a portion off the Llandudno service or part of a half-hourly Liverpool-Chester service.

So the consensus seems to be
Good case for reconnecting Oswestry to the main line at Gobowen.
Possible case for a through service beyond, but unclear which way.
No real case for Oswestry to Welshpool.

Pretty good assessment. Oswestry to Welshpool is more expensive because the track isn't in place and Welshpool isn't enough of a destination in its own right to be worth doing that rail link. If having to change train didn't put (so many) potential travellers off it might be worthwhile, but as it is you might need lots of additional double track on the Cambrian line to allow the train to run through to Aberystwyth (or, with alot more new track, Brecon via Newtown, Llanidloes and Builth Wells) before it was a sufficiently useful service.

Other than the odd weekend heritage service , an Oswestry connection depends on a tunnel under the A5 .This would wreak any rail BCR. I can't see this happening unless its part of an A5 dualing north of Shrewsbury - - which local worthies have also called for .

I can't see what's wrong with level crossings; as long as the road users don't run the lights (I can't remember if the A5 one has barriers; they should certainlly be added if currently absent). An hourly Oswestry service, or even half-hourly (hourly to Wrexham and hourly to Shrewsbury) would still be less than some level crossings have going over them; I think the one near Havant station is at least 4tph each way for example.

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

The level crossings near Havant are not on a major truck road, have alternative bridged routes available, but do have considerably more than 4tph each way.

 

[DavidGrain]

I can't see what's wrong with level crossings; as long as the road users don't run the lights (I can't remember if the A5 one has barriers; they should certainlly be added if currently absent). An hourly Oswestry service, or even half-hourly (hourly to Wrexham and hourly to Shrewsbury) would still be less than some level crossings have going over them; I think the one near Havant station is at least 4tph each way for example.

Unfortunately what is wrong with level crossings is that the Cambrian T & W order was passed only after CHR agreed to a grade separation on the A5 and one other road and stringent conditions on other roads.

As I said above the letter advising of the grant of the order makes interesting reading
https://assets.publishing.service.g...e/595431/cambrian-railway-decision-letter.pdf

 

[Llanigraham]

Do they 'centre' on Wrexham? IME, people from Oswestry are more likely to go to Shrewsbury than to Wrexham. If going north, they're more likely to go all the way to Chester, not Wrexham.

That is, from anecdotal and observational evidence only.

I can only go on what friends who live and work in and around Oswestry tell me.
Going to Chester seems generally reserved for a "special" day out, and they don't even think about "going south"!

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I have now read through the T & W Order and find that it makes interesting reading covering many of the point raised in this thread. I recommend reading it.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...e/595431/cambrian-railway-decision-letter.pdf

Thank you for that link. It does make interesting reading.

Effectively, Network Rail have washed their hands of this section of railway and are no longer involved. Shropshire Council have bought the land and infrastructure, and have in turn leased it to a railway heritage group who now for the time being have legal rights and obligations. So, there is no chance of Network Rail bringing this stretch of track back into the mainstream railway system, and before any trains can run, new underpasses or overbridges will have to be constructed over two trunk roads and paid for by the railway heritage company. I think we're in for a very, very long wait.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Pretty good assessment. Oswestry to Welshpool is more expensive because the track isn't in place and Welshpool isn't enough of a destination in its own right to be worth doing that rail link. If having to change train didn't put (so many) potential travellers off it might be worthwhile, but as it is you might need lots of additional double track on the Cambrian line to allow the train to run through to Aberystwyth (or, with alot more new track, Brecon via Newtown, Llanidloes and Builth Wells) before it was a sufficiently useful service.

If you were going to reinstate Oswestry-Welshpool (and with all the provisos that it's probably not worth doing anyway), would it not make more sense to reverse at Welshpool and run the trains to Shrewsbury? Or even, rebuild the junction facing the other way from its previous alignment, so trains just run something like Gobowen - Oswestry - Pant - Llanymynech - Four Crosses - Shrewsbury without a reverse? I would imagine that's where most of the demand would be.

 

[PHILIPE]

If you were going to reinstate Oswestry-Welshpool (and with all the provisos that it's probably not worth doing anyway), would it not make more sense to reverse at Welshpool and run the trains to Shrewsbury? Or even, rebuild the junction facing the other way from its previous alignment, so trains just run something like Gobowen - Oswestry - Pant - Llanymynech - Four Crosses - Shrewsbury without a reverse? I would imagine that's where most of the demand would be.

A rather long way round from Oswestry to Shrewsbury. Easier to get a bus to Gobowen

 

[The_Engineer]

If you were going to reinstate Oswestry-Welshpool (and with all the provisos that it's probably not worth doing anyway), would it not make more sense to reverse at Welshpool and run the trains to Shrewsbury? Or even, rebuild the junction facing the other way from its previous alignment, so trains just run something like Gobowen - Oswestry - Pant - Llanymynech - Four Crosses - Shrewsbury without a reverse? I would imagine that's where most of the demand would be.

I do not think that would attract much Oswestry to Shrewsbury traffic as it would be a very long route via Four Crosses. Change at Gobowen would be much quicker.
Plus I think the only benefit of reopening south of Oswestry is in traffic for Welshpool, Newtown and beyond.

 

[30907]

The local buses already do that but are not seen as attractive as the town having its railway station back and of course we have all the usual problems of non integration and lack of through ticketing and different agendas.

That's why I said "dedicated" - I hadn't thought through the ticketing issue, though all it needs is a cheap Plusbus
I was envisaging the buses using the down side at Gobowen BTW.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Where does a rebuilt railway between Welshpool and Gobowen rank on that list of priorities?

Very low?