Study to investigate re-opening Gobowen to Welshpool line

[Gareth Marston]

Pedantry corner: The A5/A483 multiplex is not a dual-carriageway, so the speed limit is 60mph.

It's a wide single carriageway which encourages people to charge down the middle to overtake often head on with like minded petrol heads coming the other way.

 

[transmanche]

It's a wide single carriageway which encourages people to charge down the middle to overtake often head on with like minded petrol heads coming the other way.

Althouh there are existing traffic islands at the location of the level crossing to prevent that. (The hatched area provides a long lead-in to the traffic islands, gradually narrowing the lanes to prevent overtaking.)

 

[snowball]

And those islands have been there since the road was opened in the 1980s.

Also at the other crossing on the narrower A483 section of the bypass.

 

[Matt P]

I saw an early plan for the Oswestry by-pass some years ago (cannot remember where) but it would have incorporated a bridge in place of the northern level crossing. Shame it was built as is, would have made trialling a new shuttle or even through services a lot easier.

The only was I can see either of the two level crossings being replaced is if plans to dual the road ever come to fruition.

 

[HowardGWR]

It's a wide single carriageway which encourages people to charge down the middle to overtake often head on with like minded petrol heads coming the other way.

Out of interest, they close even a motorway in NL to open a bridge for tall boats, at Zaandam, and it causes no problems. You just need adequate advance warning signals.

 

[Gareth Marston]

A link to the Transport and Works order that the Cambrian Heritage Railway has to reopen Gobowen to Blodwell (the mothballed bit).

https://assets.publishing.service.g...e/595431/cambrian-railway-decision-letter.pdf

22.
With regard to the concerns raised by the ORR, CHRL said it had presented
indicative designs for the crossings of the A5 and A483 without level crossings to the ORR
who had said that such a solution would be satisfactory.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Out of interest, they close even a motorway in NL to open a bridge for tall boats, at Zaandam, and it causes no problems. You just need adequate advance warning signals.

Do people that work for the ORR and their family's refuse to travel abroad due to these clearly dangerous practices?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Hasn't the A483 taken over the trackbed in places south of Llanymynych?
There are probably river/canal bridges to rebuild too, not to mention the heritage incumbents on the remaining track.

From a quick look at Google maps, there is track still in-place practically all the way from Gobowen to Llynclys save for about 350 metres through sombody's back garden (not their house, I think) at the latter. Then there are a few buildings on the trackbed between Llynclys and Llanymynech, mostly agricurtral/industrial type buildings not residential judging by the aerial photography. The A483 doesn't appear to have taken over the trackbed. At least one bridge is missing however and there are more agricurtral/industrial buildings on the trackbed (and houses very close to it) between Llanymynech and the junction with the Cambrian Main Line.

Overall, reopenning Gobowen-Oswestry/Llynclys looks fairly straightforward but completing the full link might require a new alignment in a few places.

Is re-opening Gobowen to Oswestry feasible? And would it make any kind of sense to extend the Bidston/Wrexham trains to incorporate this extra leg?

As noted above, there is still track in place so reopenning Gobowen to Oswestry really ought to be feasible. With the plan to increase the Borderlands line service to 2tph, with one being limited-stop, it also ought to be possible to run the limited-stop workings through to Oswestry instead of Wrexham Central, leaving the latter with hourly stoppers. However, unless that could be extended into Liverpool (requiring something like the Ultra class 73s or new 3rd rail bi-mode units to avoid running diesel engines in the Merseyrail tunnels) I doubt there would be much demand for the through link; Oswestry-Wrexham-Chester would be more useful but there's the single line section north of Wrexham to scupper that.

The way I see it, those south-facing bay platforms at Wrexham General could be useful for more than just overnight stabling/servicing of a handful of class 230 units...

First things you need to ask are what does it unlock? Is there a suppressed demand which cutting the corner of Shrewsbury opens up? Also bear in mind the implications it has on the rest of the Cambrian, unless the plan is for this new link to take one of the hourly paths. Clearly Oswestry gains but where do people from there go and want to go? Surely the majority is towards Wrexham/Chester?

Good point; the demand from Oswestry is more likely to be north to Wrexham than south to Welshpool, which given north of Oswestry is the easy bit does point towards only bothering with that section and leaving the hard bit from Oswestry to Welshpool without rails (but can we have a strict policy of safeguarding possible rail routes from future development please?). Cutting the corner would improve links from Aberystwyth, Machynlleth, Newtown and Welshpool to Wrexham, but if there was really all that much demand it would be possible to run a through service between Aberystwyth and Wrexham via Shrewsbury without any reopenning required (although to avoid removing the Birmingham link you'd want more double-track on the Cambrian to allow such services to be additional workings over and above the (to be hourly, I hope) Aberystwyth-Birmingham services.

Without additional double track on the Cambrian, any services between Oswestry and Welshpool should terminate at the latter in my view. If money was no object (eg. a Barnet consequental from HS2 ring-fenced for new rail infrustructure), I would suggest lots more double track and new lines (on brand-new alignments in several cases, avoiding circuitous historical routes) Merthyr-Brecon-Newtown, Porthmadog-Bryncir-Caernarfon-Bangor and Welshpool-Oswestry-Gobowen. Service pattern would be:

• Aberystwyth-Birmingham (hourly)
• Pwllheli-Birmingham (every two hours, portion-work with above)
• Brecon-Cardiff (every 30 minutes)
• Brecon-Newtown (hourly) continuing in alternate hours to Wrexham (via Oswestry) and Bangor (via Porthmadog)
• Newtown-Welshpool-Oswestry-Wrexham (every two hours, creating an hourly service over this section)
• Pwllheli-Porthmadog-Bangor (every two hours, building these two sections of route up to hourly as well)

At the very least, I feel that the Porthmadog-Caernarfon-Bangor and Oswestry-Gobowen-Wrexham elements of the above should be persuded before considering a new line between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth. Even Oswestry-Welshpool might end up being better value than Carmarthen-Aberystwyth (with a service every two hours Bangor-Caernarfon-Porthmadog-Machylleth-Welshpool-Oswestry-Wrexham) due to the two (very expensive) tunnels needed to make Carmarthen-Aberystwyth make sense with the private car as a competitor (Merthyr-Brecon-Newtown would similarly require new alignments with expensive new tunnels to avoid the circuitous historical routes, the new alignment needed from Bryncir to Porthmadog I doubt would require a tunnel).

 

[muddythefish]

No chance - if you want to see proper congestion try junctions 12 to 21 of the M25!

What's that got to do with mid-Wales transport problems ?

 

[gazthomas]

What's that got to do with mid-Wales transport problems ?

Because the OP's posted suggested that reopening the line could be a solution for local congestion. That maybe so, but in a world of finite resource my point was that we may want to solve bigger, more nationally impacting problems first such as major congestion on our main roads, or for that matter rail. Relatively speaking, the sparsely populated, well tarmac'd Mid-Wales doesn't have any transport problems.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Relatively speaking, the sparsely populated, well tarmac'd Mid-Wales doesn't have any transport problems.

Is Wrexham in Mid-Wales? I thought it was in North-East Wales; and not all that far away from North-West England.

Sparsely populated Mid-Wales (which Wrexham and Oswestry aren't) has transport problems of a different kind; namely reliance on the private car which is:
A. bad for the environment,
B. bad for pepole who cannot drive (due to limited availablity of bus services) and
C. probably not all that great for congestion in other areas because if you start your journey in a private car you are probably fairly likely to drive all the way to your destination (which occassionally might involve the M25) rather than just to the nearest railway station

Maybe sometimes (part of) the solution to big transport problems lies far away from where those transport problems are most visible. Take the M4 between Cardiff and the river Severn; how many journeys over that section of road originate far west of Cardiff and how many of those could switch to rail if a better rail service was provided west of Cardiff?

 

[muddythefish]

Because the OP's posted suggested that reopening the line could be a solution for local congestion. That maybe so, but in a world of finite resource my point was that we may want to solve bigger, more nationally impacting problems first such as major congestion on our main roads, or for that matter rail. Relatively speaking, the sparsely populated, well tarmac'd Mid-Wales doesn't have any transport problems.

So more investment in the SE. Plus ca change.

This is also supposed to be a pro-rail site. But reading some posts one does begin to wonder........

 

[gazthomas]

All these are generic problems, I would start where there are more people that would benefit that's all

 

[gazthomas]

So more investment in the SE. Plus ca change.

This is also supposed to be a pro-rail site. But reading some posts one does begin to wonder........

I am very pro rail, but I'm also realistic. Reopening the second Brighton mainline let alone secondary lines in low density areas can't get traction. The reality is as a country we spend more than we get in already, so resources need to be prioritised.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Interestingly the traffic counts on the A483 north of Welshpool are higher than on the A458 to Shrewsbury showing how much impact the Cambrian mainline has on reducing traffic levels.

 

[muddythefish]

I am very pro rail, but I'm also realistic. Reopening the second Brighton mainline let alone secondary lines in low density areas can't get traction. The reality is as a country we spend more than we get in already, so resources need to be prioritised.

Poor rural transport is a huge problem, holding back social and economic development. The Beeching cuts took the rail lines away, and the replacement bus services since then have mostly dwindled or disappeared altogether. Transport infrastructure in this country is chronically underfunded. If the London-based Treasury wants to open its purse, the money is always there when necessary.

 

[xcooler123]

Having lived in the area for over 15 years and used both roads and rail extensively, I can say that the biggest need is the doubling up of the A5 fro Shrewsbury to Wrexham (save for the small amount of dual carriageway for the Nesscliffe Bypass). The traffic on that stretch (especially during summer holidays) can be horrendous and there are a number of notoriously dangerous spots with frequent accidents along there. I am well aware of the challenges and therefore expense of doing such a project (particularly north of Oswestry) but for the local area that is the best thing to spend the money on.

With my pragmatic railway hat on, the best options are -
a) some form of light rail shuttle service between Gobowen and Oswestry with a stop at the Orthopaedic Hospital. The layout is very similar to the Stourbridge Shuttle with crossing the A5 being the only major hurdle.
b) as above but heavy rail to extend to Wrexham/Chester

This therefore leaves the southern section as part of the Cambrian Heritage Railway which I think it is best suited to. Extend out towards Llanyblodwell and you will have a very nice heritage railway route. I don't think there is enough demand to extend from Oswestry down to Welshpool for it to be viable.

 

[Llanigraham]

Because the OP's posted suggested that reopening the line could be a solution for local congestion. That maybe so, but in a world of finite resource my point was that we may want to solve bigger, more nationally impacting problems first such as major congestion on our main roads, or for that matter rail. Relatively speaking, the sparsely populated, well tarmac'd Mid-Wales doesn't have any transport problems.

Strikes me you don't come to Mid Wales very often!

Roads:
delays often around Welshpool, Newtown and Rhayader.
roads often blocked by accidents, with no short diversion routes.
few east to west main roads, often congested with HGVs.
one main north to south road that is often single carriageway, winding and narrow.
some often blocked by snow and ice in the winter.

Buses:
few and far between.
only serve main settlements so remote villages have to rely on cars
expensive
slow because of the poor roads
not integrated with other transport providers.

 

[snowball]

Having lived in the area for over 15 years and used both roads and rail extensively, I can say that the biggest need is the doubling up of the A5 fro Shrewsbury to Wrexham.

It's only the A5 to Chirk, then A483.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I am very pro rail, but I'm also realistic. Reopening the second Brighton mainline let alone secondary lines in low density areas can't get traction. The reality is as a country we spend more than we get in already, so resources need to be prioritised.

This sort of attitude is why very little happens by saying "the best scheme" "the scheme in the big population area" "prioritize" its easy to knock and pick off individual schemes - divide and conquer.

If we had a long list of projects at a national level all of which are deemed "vital" and of equal importance then we would make progress as the pressure at a national level would ensure that a percentage got authorized.

You don't see backswood Tory MP's all of whom have several pet road projects locally they champion knocking proposed road schemes in other constituency's do you?

 

[yorksrob]

This seems like a very good idea for a reopening. Regular shuttle from Shrewsbury reversing at Gobowen would prove popular.

 

[Gareth Marston]

This seems like a very good idea for a reopening. Regular shuttle from Shrewsbury reversing at Gobowen would prove popular.

even just into Oswestry. The highly optimistic AA Route Planner states that the center of Oswestry to Shrewsbury is 40 minutes done the A5. Even with a reversal at Gobowen a train should do it in around 30.

 

[Western Lord]

Poor rural transport is a huge problem, holding back social and economic development. The Beeching cuts took the rail lines away, and the replacement bus services since then have mostly dwindled or disappeared altogether. Transport infrastructure in this country is chronically underfunded. If the London-based Treasury wants to open its purse, the money is always there when necessary.

The reason that the bus services disappeared is that nobody used them. It costs a lot less to run a bus service than a rail service, so what chance would trains have? Mid Wales is a low density population area, which is precisely the wrong kind of place for rail to work effectively. Trains work best shifting large numbers of people between big places, they are not much good when rambling around sparsely populated country areas. People choose cars because they are the most convenient option for rural journeys, and the argument that they pollute the environment and disadvantage people who can't drive will disappear when we have electric driverless cars. Whether we ever will have such things is another question!

 

[Railwaysceptic]

This is also supposed to be a pro-rail site. But reading some posts one does begin to wonder........

This is a forum, a place where people from differing backgrounds and with a variety of attitudes and beliefs can exchange ideas and opinions. This is not the notice board of a religious sect, open to only a handful of fanatical true believers.

 

[6Gman]

Poor rural transport is a huge problem, holding back social and economic development. The Beeching cuts took the rail lines away, and the replacement bus services since then have mostly dwindled or disappeared altogether. Transport infrastructure in this country is chronically underfunded. If the London-based Treasury wants to open its purse, the money is always there when necessary.

The London-based Treasury may have a purse, but it has no money. That money comes from us and can only be used once. This week - so far - I have seen press/TV stories about the need for more public spending on: the NHS, Defence, Prisons, the Courts, rural bus services, mental health care, social care, social housing ...

Where does a rebuilt railway between Welshpool and Gobowen rank on that list of priorities?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

People choose cars because they are the most convenient option for rural journeys, and the argument that they pollute the environment and disadvantage people who can't drive will disappear when we have electric driverless cars. Whether we ever will have such things is another question!

Will the electric driverless cars be something that will compliment the electric driverless trains?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This is not the notice board of a religious sect, open to only a handful of fanatical true believers.

Though, on certain threads on this website, you will be hard pressed not to think that indeed is the case....

 

[B&I]

This seems like a very good idea for a reopening. Regular shuttle from Shrewsbury reversing at Gobowen would prove popular.

Even a shuttle from Gobowen to Oswestry on the preserved line, using a 230, connecting with Wrexham-Shrewsbury services, would be useful

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The London-based Treasury may have a purse, but it has no money. That money comes from us and can only be used once.

Have you overlooked the money from Governmental borrowing that makes its way into the coffers of the Treasury.

 

[yorksrob]

This is not the notice board of a religious sect, open to only a handful of fanatical true believers.

You mean like the Beeching acolytes ?