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.... off peak should be the same everywhere - ie after 9.30am
.... off peak should be the same everywhere - ie after 9.30am
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Suggestion for Off Peak to be the same everywhere
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For areas high in commuter use, for example the Merseyrail network, this is pretty much the status quo (Off-peak day single and return tickets are not sold on the Wirral and Northern lines at all, and the off-peak Saveaway or Day Saver is only valid after 9.30am). This is a simple approach that works - after 9.30 it's off-peak time.
For longer distance services, a blanket approach would not work as you have to consider when the majority of passengers will be making a journey along any given flow. This is where discrepancies arise.
In my opinion, off-peak restrictions should not have one universal cut off point. Rather, sell off-peak tickets for trains commencing after the busiest ones, that aren't likely to be conveying commuters en mass, be this before or after 9.30am.
For longer distance services, a blanket approach would not work as you have to consider when the majority of passengers will be making a journey along any given flow. This is where discrepancies arise.
In my opinion, off-peak restrictions should not have one universal cut off point. Rather, sell off-peak tickets for trains commencing after the busiest ones, that aren't likely to be conveying commuters en mass, be this before or after 9.30am.
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If off peak fares were all given a "Not before 0930" restriction, it would only solve one of the problems, which is having to look up the restriction code for any given ticket.
It wouldn't solve any of the other problems.
Currently CrossCountry (XC) have this policy, this means anyone requiring walk-up travel for a long distance journey priced by XC commencing before 0930 has to "split" their journey into a combination of tickets.
If this was rolled out nationwide, anyone requiring walk-up travel for a long distance journey with any Company commencing before 0930 would have to do the same.
This would increase the use of "split ticketing" even more.
It wouldn't solve any of the other problems.
Currently CrossCountry (XC) have this policy, this means anyone requiring walk-up travel for a long distance journey priced by XC commencing before 0930 has to "split" their journey into a combination of tickets.
If this was rolled out nationwide, anyone requiring walk-up travel for a long distance journey with any Company commencing before 0930 would have to do the same.
This would increase the use of "split ticketing" even more.
Perhaps we should split this into another new thread to discuss everything that's gone wrong with XC!
I personally find split ticketing rather fun. But for some it's a chore, and for others it's something they never have to do.
The only real way to get people paying the price they need to for tickets, and no more than that, would be education. There is virtually no need to purchase the £321 Anytime Return MAN - EUS yet people still do it. Maybe we should hire someone from the forum to stand at Manchester Piccadilly with a big split ticket machine just before people buy their tickets.
If off-peak universally became after 09.30 only, what happens to journeys that carry over past midnight from the previous day? Would they need an Anytime ticket?
No. Making tickets "valid after 0930" means that for travel between midnight and 0429, it becomes cheaper to purchase a ticket dated for the previous day. See Validity and expiry for an in-depth discussion about the matter of that particular issue.
I'll check it out.
Seems to be a similar principle to buying Evening Returns the 'wrong' way round when making a one way journey at 10-11pm.
I'll just pop in my two points from the other thread:
If we have off-peak as 0930 everywhere:
That'll disadvantage the many Northern fares which currently have an off-peak time of after 0430.
It'll make the first train you can get from Edinburgh to London on an off-peak ticket the 0930 instead of the 0548.
If we have off-peak as 0930 everywhere:
That'll disadvantage the many Northern fares which currently have an off-peak time of after 0430.
It'll make the first train you can get from Edinburgh to London on an off-peak ticket the 0930 instead of the 0548.
Supplementary suggestion -
Could we start by making sure that all flows have an off peak fare. It seems bizarre that on a route such as Bingley to Lancaster on a quiet Sunday, the only ticket available is an expensive anytime fare.
Could we start by making sure that all flows have an off peak fare. It seems bizarre that on a route such as Bingley to Lancaster on a quiet Sunday, the only ticket available is an expensive anytime fare.
button_boxer
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At simplification most operators chose to convert all their Saver fares into Off-Peak (even those Savers that had no time restrictions), allowing them to introduce additional Anytime fares at a higher price. But in Northern-land many of the unrestricted Savers have more reasonably become Anytime fares.
If there were separate Off-Peak and Anytime fares for that flow I suspect it's more likely that the Off-Peak would be priced at the current level and the Anytime would be more expensive.
If there were separate Off-Peak and Anytime fares for that flow I suspect it's more likely that the Off-Peak would be priced at the current level and the Anytime would be more expensive.
hairyhandedfool
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Some Off-Peak tickets also have evening restrictions, some (Super) Off Peak tickets have Saturday restrictions. Some (rather long) journeys can't be completed the same day if they start after 0930.
Moving the restrictions to 0930 will also force some people to pay more or travel later (Off-Peak tickets out of Manchester vary quite a lot for time restrictions, some after 0430, some after 0830, some after 0844, some after 0859, some after 0930 and probably more besides). I'm sure people would rather pay less than have universal restrictions, YMMV.
All the above just highlights a point I ve been making ..... adding restrictions just adds to the complexity. To further prove the point, I happened to be at Leeds station today and engaged in a conversation with a couple of female passengers.....who stated that they found the rail environment very bewildering ( they were leisure travellers ). There is also a well recognised " efficiency gap " of some 40% between the UK network and comparative Euro networks, as highlighted by the Mcnulty report. Whilst that gap isnt the fault of ticketing per se.....none the less it does add to the issue.
Possibly true, although compared to the range of tickets available elsewhere, some of these routes are looking quite pricey at the moment. Perhaps in the spirit of using excess capacity, they should consider introducing lower off peak fares on these routes.
I'm sure we all agree in principle that rail fares are far too complex and should be simplified.
The problem is that simplification will almost certainly result in price rises and removal of passengers rights.
This is already starting to happen by stealth with smart cards and print@home. Although great in theory they restrict rights to things like break of journey, starting/finishing short, using split tickets etc.
We should all be very aware of this and campaign to ensure that passengers rights are not eroded under the banner of 'progress'.
The problem is that simplification will almost certainly result in price rises and removal of passengers rights.
This is already starting to happen by stealth with smart cards and print@home. Although great in theory they restrict rights to things like break of journey, starting/finishing short, using split tickets etc.
We should all be very aware of this and campaign to ensure that passengers rights are not eroded under the banner of 'progress'.
Qwerty133
Established Member
I'd like the following to be a universal off peak restriction on journeys of less than 50 miles, outside the southeast.
Passenger rights are enshrined in charters....and also monitored by watchdogs. You do not know what effect price rises will have....50% of the fares basket is regulated and shows no signs of suppressing demand
which they constantly disregard
Who don't understand the issues or have any power anyway
I m afraid your wrong ....but you are entitled to your opinion
hairyhandedfool
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Made up example:
Passenger travels on 0910 service to Bigville
Off Peak Return price £10
Anytime Return price £20
Current Off-Peak restriction: At or after 0900
If the restriction changed to "at or after 0930", how much extra would the passenger pay? Have any of the fares actually changed? Do you see this as a price rise?
Assuming they use the same train , would be a price rise. But it only proves that a price would rise......what effect does it have on the demand for that train?
hairyhandedfool
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It's bad for the passenger whichever way you look at it.
Option 1) Passengers pay more for the same service.
Option 2) passengers travel on a later service.
Option 3) passengers switch to bus or car (or tram where available).
Option 1 is good for the Government (less subsidy required).
Option 2 is neither good nor bad for anyone except the passengers.
Option 3 is no good for the railway and arguably no good for the Government either.
Option 1) Passengers pay more for the same service.
Option 2) passengers travel on a later service.
Option 3) passengers switch to bus or car (or tram where available).
Option 1 is good for the Government (less subsidy required).
Option 2 is neither good nor bad for anyone except the passengers.
Option 3 is no good for the railway and arguably no good for the Government either.
Judging by whats happened over the last 12 years, option 1 has occured.
Number 2 leads to the first off-peak services becoming very overcrowded, particularly where there is a huge difference between Anytime and Off-Peak fares.
Hmmm. Who is the watchdog that regulates rail fares? You only need to look at what has happened with the routeing guide over the last six months to see that approval processes that are supposed to be followed when changes are made have been ignored.
I suspect that the 'smart card' fare would become the regulated fare once they start being rolled out. Paper tickets will then start to be withdrawn because the DfT will tell us that passengers 'prefer' smart cards.
Will you be able to start/finish short, break a journey or use a combination of tickets with a smart card? I doubt it very much. We already have this starting to happen - see the issue raised last week about Chiltern Only fares from Marylebone to Birmingham.
The current system contains too much wild and slightly random variability, with bizarre 'Not before 04:30am' off-peak tickets kicking around, and restrictions which have no real consistency. Equally, a flat time is unworkable and unrealistic.
I'd be keen on a more limited system of restrictions, consolidating current practice into a selection of roughly 5 different off-peak restrictions. These, indicatively, might be:
We might not have exactly these (I haven't spent much time thinking about them!) and we might decide that we can tolerate more options than 5 (going to 10 or 15 would significantly simplify on the current system), but the principle would be to retain some flexibility, while simplifying things for passengers and staff.
I'd be keen on a more limited system of restrictions, consolidating current practice into a selection of roughly 5 different off-peak restrictions. These, indicatively, might be:
- Prohibit Break of Journey only
- Before 08:30
- Before 09:00
- Before 09:30
- Before 09:30 and 16:00-18:00
We might not have exactly these (I haven't spent much time thinking about them!) and we might decide that we can tolerate more options than 5 (going to 10 or 15 would significantly simplify on the current system), but the principle would be to retain some flexibility, while simplifying things for passengers and staff.
You don't seem to have responded to the points that I (and others have made) that this will make some off-peak journeys only possible 4 or 5 hours later than now.
From Edinburgh that is an extra 4 or 5 trains that would now be peak - how busy do you think the first off-peak train will now be with people wanting to save £100 on the peak fare?
So passengers leaving Edingburgh would have a restriction nearly 3 hours later than now?
Surely the reason we have so many different times is to manage demand - largely down to the fact we're using the ticketing system to suppress demand at peak times instead of upgrading the railway (I appreciate there's quite a lot going on now but it's been slow for many years).
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I'm gonna wade right in here and say that uniform restriction of peak/off-peak just wouldn't work for the simple fact that every journey is unique.
An excellent example made by Deerfold is the case of passengers in Edinburgh. If everything up to and including 0930 was peak, on an off peak ticket you couldn't get to London until twenty to 3 in the afternoon!
Each route has its own definition of peak; passengers boarding the off peak 0830 from EDB to London will find the service much quieter than the train an hour earlier.
Yet for people boarding most local services in Manchester, 0830 is slap bang in the middle of peak.
The same rule applied everywhere would benefit only a few whilst creating problems for many.
An excellent example made by Deerfold is the case of passengers in Edinburgh. If everything up to and including 0930 was peak, on an off peak ticket you couldn't get to London until twenty to 3 in the afternoon!
Each route has its own definition of peak; passengers boarding the off peak 0830 from EDB to London will find the service much quieter than the train an hour earlier.
Yet for people boarding most local services in Manchester, 0830 is slap bang in the middle of peak.
The same rule applied everywhere would benefit only a few whilst creating problems for many.
brompton rail
Member
BUT, Doncaster to Penzance Off Peak means you can only travel after 0930 with a Penzance arrival of 1804. That doesn't seem to worry XC !
Just because there are some rubbish restrictions doesn't mean this is the way to solve them.
I suspect we could simplify the restrictions an awful lot but probably aiming to get down to just one or half a dozen is a step too far.
True, so people need to "split".
Whitby-Derby departing at 0850 (the first departure of the day) is "peak" according to XC, and they want £162 for a return. But a return to York is £13.30, York to Sheffield £19.60 and Sheffield - Derby £11.10, totalling £44 and saving £118
Do we want that madness on all operators?!
I can see Trainmiser and Trainsplit being incredibly successful if so.
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