Sunday a ATW train free day again

[merlodlliw]

I realise we have this, don't have to do overtime on Sunday,which for Wales
key rail people mover in 2010 needs sorting once & forall.

Yesterday, In North Wales Salop less than half a dozen trains ran, I presume driven by Managers, VT ran as did W/S, everything else was by bus, I appreciate some engineering was going on, I had friends stranded for hours not knowing what was happening, ATW" put up a website,some of which was wrong.

I realise this will annoy some on rail forums, but for passengers this is a continuing hell. No other toc seems to have this amount of total shutdown of rail and onto bus, doubling the travel time, engineering I understand, but for other reasons some compromise& common sense on both sides as to be achieved before its too late.

Thats how I feel

 

[mumrar]

I realise we have this, don't have to do overtime on Sunday,which for Wales
key rail people mover in 2010 needs sorting once & forall.

Yesterday, In North Wales Salop less than half a dozen trains ran, I presume driven by Managers, VT ran as did W/S, everything else was by bus, I appreciate some engineering was going on, I had friends stranded for hours not knowing what was happening, ATW" put up a website,some of which was wrong.

I realise this will annoy some on rail forums, but for passengers this is a continuing hell. No other toc seems to have this amount of total shutdown of rail and onto bus, doubling the travel time, engineering I understand, but for other reasons some compromise& common sense on both sides as to be achieved before its too late.

Thats how I feel

ATW are not alone in having Sundays as voluntary for their traincrew. Why franchises don't want to sort this out I don't know, apart from the fact that they're just tight.

 

[Pacerpilot]

Precisely Mumrar....Its going to cost them a lot of money to persuade the crews to give up their only guaranteed day off.

 

[Welshman]

Central Trains used to have the same problem.
And that was only sorted when they lost the franchise.

 

[12CSVT]

No doubt ATW would have given out misleading information trying to accuse the traincrews or unions of causing this (just like FCC did this time last year when they had over 30 unfilled vacancies for drivers).
If Sunday working is voluntary on ATW, then there is no contracual obligation for staff to work Sundays if they choose not to.

 

[Greenback]

ATW called it industrail action when S Wales staff didn't work.

 

[mumrar]

Central Trains used to have the same problem.
And that was only sorted when they lost the franchise.

Sorted how? London Midland crews don't have committed Sundays, XC 170 crews don't have committed Sundays, and EMT ex-Central crews don't have committed Sundays. London Midland have only relieved the problem by throwing money at it, giving crews double time and with a minimum of 12hrs pay for coming in.

ATW called it industrail action when S Wales staff didn't work.

That's disgraceful on the part of ATW, and is actually an allegation against the staff which could cause more aggrevation.

 

[12CSVT]

That's disgraceful on the part of ATW, and is actually an allegation against the staff which could cause more aggrevation.

And a potentially libellous allegation, I'd have thought.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

No doubt ATW would have given out misleading information trying to accuse the traincrews or unions of causing this (just like FCC did this time last year when they had over 30 unfilled vacancies for drivers).
If Sunday working is voluntary on ATW, then there is no contracual obligation for staff to work Sundays if they choose not to.

If you don't want to works Sundays then don't take a job with a seven day operation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Precisely Mumrar....Its going to cost them a lot of money to persuade the crews to give up their only guaranteed day off.

They don't get rest days?

 

[tbtc]

No other toc seems to have this amount of total shutdown of rail and onto bus, doubling the travel time

...apart from London Midland. And parts of Cross Country...

All TOCs have had the threats of industrial action/ troubles getting staff to work "rest" days (two different things, hence me putting the "/" there).

However its more noticeable on a single track line with a handful of services (like the Wrexham - Shrewsbury route the OP refers to), where one missed train is more noticeable than the Birmingham Cross City line (for example)

 

[jopsuk]

Thats how I feel

So angry that you can barely type coherently? Have you tried reading back what you wrote? I can get the gist of it, but it takes a bit of work.

 

[mumrar]

If you don't want to works Sundays then don't take a job with a seven day operation.

That is a silly and ignorant observation. My employment contract says I do not have to work on a Sunday. Therefore, if I don't want to, I won't. It is not possible to force someone to work when they don't have to. If the place you work suddenly starts 7-day operation of your job, I presume you'll work Sundays for standard pay or resign then. What you should have said is, it is reckless to run a 7-day business operation without contractually obliging your staff to work 7 days a week.

 

[TheBigD]

If you don't want to works Sundays then don't take a job with a seven day operation

I have

My contract states specifically, in CAPITALS, "...SUNDAYS TO BE OUTSIDE GUARANTEED WORKING WORK..."

It also states "...will be assumed to be NOT AVAILABLE for Sundays (including rostered Sundays)...unless the employee has made themselves available..."

As you can see I'm only required for 6 days, not 7.

 

[tbtc]

If you don't want to works Sundays then don't take a job with a seven day operation

By the same logic, would you say "if you don't want to work until midnight and start work at six in the morning then don't take a job with an operation that runs services most of the day"?

 

[Proud Salopian]

This needs to be sorted out. I find it annoying how other countries such as Switzerland run the same timetable 7 days a week, whilst in the UK the TOCs can't fathom how to get any trains running on a Sunday. Pathetic.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

By the same logic, would you say "if you don't want to work until midnight and start work at six in the morning then don't take a job with an operation that runs services most of the day"?

Yes, of course. I'll try again. If you apply for a job with an organisation that does whatever it does on a seven day twenty four hours of those days operation it sounds a bit silly for:
a) the prospective employer to say that you don't have to work Sundays if you don't want to
b) the prospective employee to say I don't want to work on a Sunday.

 

[merlodlliw]

However its more noticeable on a single track line with a handful of services (like the Wrexham - Shrewsbury route the OP refers to), where one missed train is more noticeable than the Birmingham Cross City line (for example)[/QUOTE]

Actually I refered to North Wales and Salop, anyhow as this is in the travel industry which operates 7 days a week, no matter who is at fault, for ATW to shut all its services in Wales except for a handful of trains driven by Managers, having hundreds of buses as replacement, some of which get lost,put hours on the journey and dont turn up , is no excuse by either side to hold the public to ransom.

I can not think of any other industry in the travel game in 2010 that shuts all its services on a Sunday as ATW are doing, hopefully DB will sort out ATW senior management, the sooner the better,this is 2010 not 1960.

 

[GB]

This needs to be sorted out. I find it annoying how other countries such as Switzerland run the same timetable 7 days a week, whilst in the UK the TOCs can't fathom how to get any trains running on a Sunday. Pathetic.

(my bold)

The solution is simple. You either renegotiate the trancrew contracts to include sundays as part of the working week AND compensate them appropriately for the lost day, or give better incentives to staff to work their sundays. The TOCs know how to sort it but they won't as it will cost them money.

Yes, of course. I'll try again. If you apply for a job with an organisation that does whatever it does on a seven day twenty four hours of those days operation it sounds a bit silly for:
a) the prospective employer to say that you don't have to work Sundays if you don't want to
b) the prospective employee to say I don't want to work on a Sunday.

Whether its "silly" or not is irrelevant. The fact is traincrew are not obliged to work their sundays. I take it at your firm you don't have any time off then?

 

[richw]

these days i dont have a problem working sundays, with the working time directive, i've got to have 48hours uninterupted break a week, 11 hours between shifts, amongst other rules,
Voluntary Sunday working waives your rights to be covered by the directive, as its voluntary overtime, which voids all rights agaisnt the directive, so in theory its in best interest to actually work sundays in most contracts and situations

 

[jopsuk]

Yes, of course. I'll try again. If you apply for a job with an organisation that does whatever it does on a seven day twenty four hours of those days operation it sounds a bit silly for:
a) the prospective employer to say that you don't have to work Sundays if you don't want to
b) the prospective employee to say I don't want to work on a Sunday.

that's as may be, but the problem is that the situation was ingrained under BR. Many, many railway men are long-serving. The heavy unionisation means that contracts for new starters, as far as possible, are the same as long termers- the TOCs that don't have seven day a week contracts currently are unable to start hiring people on seven day a week contracts. They have to work with the situation that they have- in the case of most companies now with the franchises, it's what they inherited from the first round of post-BR franchisees. Saying that it is a daft situation to get into doesn't help. They're in the situation, and it isn't their fault they got there in the first place.

Those that managed to get onto 7 day contracts did so at huge expense and not a little pain. The reamning TOCs as a business descion consider whether it is worth it- as it is, it obviously remains a powerful bargaining tool on the part of the unions. Not that everyone not turning up on Sundays is at all organised byu the unions. Oh no...

 

[GB]

with the working time directive, i've got to have 48hours uninterupted break a week

I think you will find its 48hrs rest each fortnight or 24hrs rest each week.

 

[mumrar]

When you say 'organised by the unions', you have to bear in mind that no ballots or instructions are issued by the union, so it hardly is. Anyone is free to make helpful situations to help someone, or a group of someones, get their voices heard.

I am curious as to the job title and company/type of work that The Barlow Boy works for, after all, I can do any banking online 7 days a week, does this mean I should no expect all HSBC branch staff to work shifts covering 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. There are plenty of people within companies who's business operate 7 days a week, who do not have to work on Sundays.

 

[richw]

I think you will find its 48hrs rest each fortnight or 24hrs rest each week.

yes sorry muddled up my numbers, maximum working week is 48 hrs with 24 rest period.

although volunteering for overtime completely voids your rights on the directive, this has caused no end of problems within my company getting staff in to cover sickness!

 

[Oswyntail]

When you say 'organised by the unions', you have to bear in mind that no ballots or instructions are issued by the union, so it hardly is. Anyone is free to make helpful situations to help someone, or a group of someones, get their voices heard.

I am curious as to the job title and company/type of work that The Barlow Boy works for, after all, I can do any banking online 7 days a week, does this mean I should no expect all HSBC branch staff to work shifts covering 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. There are plenty of people within companies who's business operate 7 days a week, who do not have to work on Sundays.

I think this is being a tad simplistic. Yes, not all service employees work on all 7 days - but those that are required for the provision of a 24/7 service do so. If trains are timetabled to be running, it is reasonable to expect the necessary staff to be working during those required times; however, there would almost certainly be back-office rail employees that are not required at those times, and their expected working week should reflect that.
I think the real problem seems to be that outlined by Jopsuk. It is not necessarily in the employees best interests to maintain the working practices of BR, and a responsible union would be taking an active part in negotiating constructively on a reasonable transition to a more modern situation (as, I seem to remember, the banking unions did). If the union is not actually organising the opposition to this reform, but is (as it seems) tacitly encouraging it, then it is not doing its job, and is whimping out of some hard work. I am sorry, Mumrar, saying that the Union is not issuing instructions (either way) says to me that it is trying to have its cake and eat it. Without proper negotiation - and that means flexibility on both sides - there will be more trainless days, and that cannot be good for the industry or its employees.

 

[scotsman]

For all of those siding with the management here, just remember

1 - Crew may have days off at any point in the week, the sunday off is the only constant
2 - The agreement with many staff states that staff may not be obliged to work a sunday if they refuse not to.
3 - At a really basic level, there is absolutely no incentive to work sundays, you'll get the same salary whether you work 'em or take an extra day off.

TOCs have tried to combat this with pay offers for a new agreement which would have sunday working, or decent overtime rates in return for sunday working.

 

[mumrar]

I can only speak for my own situation at XC, where we would be willing to accept a reasonable change to the pay structure to include Sunday as part of the working week. This was also our position under XC, and the union bring it up in our negotiations, but the companies are not interested. Do not blame the staff for an issue entirely of the TOC's making, they are maintaining the status quo.

 

[TheBigD]

I can only speak for my own situation at XC, where we would be willing to accept a reasonable change to the pay structure to include Sunday as part of the working week. This was also our position under XC, and the union bring it up in our negotiations, but the companies are not interested. Do not blame the staff for an issue entirely of the TOC's making, they are maintaining the status quo.

Indeed. XC's position was that they did not think that it would benefit the business, and that the current position was manageable.

The harsh truth is that the TOC's simply do not see this as a priority for them.

 

[mumrar]

Exactly, how are the crew liable for a situation that the higher levels of the company are quite happy with. XC don't see it as a priority because they're quite willing to stick managers on the rear of trains with maps having minimal knowledge of traction, all putting the travelling public at higher risk.

 

[313103]

Most Rail companies WANT there staff to work a 24/7/365 type of roster........ F A C T !

Most Rail companies do not want to pay the staff affected any incentive to move to a 24/7/265 type of roster.

Despite most people thinking that the unions are not prepared to change, in most situations on this subject it is the companies themselves who are not prepared to change and are quite happy with that status quo.

Has as been mentioned XC was one company, the company i work for also took the same stand. Drivers on LO work a 24/7/365 type of roster, ALL other grades have the old BR Sundays not part of the working so therefore you are not obliged to work them. The question is why has one grade got what the public want and the rest havent?

Dont keep blaming us for a situation that arises on Arriva Train Wales.

 

[Oswyntail]

For all of those siding with the management here, ....

.....
Dont keep blaming us for a situation that arises on Arriva Train Wales.

I am afraid these two extracts say an awful lot to me. The industry is obviously still being run in 1970's mode, with "sides" and "blame" being the key words. What I - as a total outsider, I admit - see is inflexibility in all parties, and unwillingness to embrace the social changes that virtually every other public-facing industry faced in the 80s. Is it any wonder that the travelling public feel we are too often seen as the real enemy?