HarleyDavidson
Established Member
- Joined
- 23 Aug 2014
- Messages
- 2,529
I don't recall trains being booked to couple at Poole at all - unless it has been done in an emergency?
Just checked it's not allowed except for failure.
I don't recall trains being booked to couple at Poole at all - unless it has been done in an emergency?
Are 450s going to remain on the Southampton stopping services (I hope not) and what will happen to the Hedge End service? Will it start at Waterloo still or Eastleigh? Or Basingstoke? Will it remain a mix of 444 and 450?
From my observation Guilford, Godalming & Haslemere passengers would rather stand, to Woking or Guildford, on a 10 car 2+2 seated train than sit in the middle of 3 on a 450 with 3+2 seats. This is also demonstrated by the numbers who stand on the 3x450 peak "fasts" rather than occupy the middle seat.
You might run into power supply issues with 10 car services beyond Poole, plus another 5 in the Poole area, plus a 4 car on the PMH-WEY service, it's more likely that things will continue as now with a 10 car going to Bournemouth and dividing or combining there as appropriate.
Are 450s going to remain on the Southampton stopping services (I hope not) and what will happen to the Hedge End service? Will it start at Waterloo still or Eastleigh? Or Basingstoke? Will it remain a mix of 444 and 450?
Although obviously not confirmed at the moment, I did manage to beat out a few possibilities or ideals from the managers - not trying to cause speculation or anything - and this is always subject to change, but to my understanding:
10-car 444s London Waterloo to Bournemouth, where it will divide with the front 5 cars going Weymouth. Rear 5 cars terminate.
10-car 442s on all but one (if I remember correctly) London Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour fast services all day every day. These will not be doing any other route, nor will they do the Portsmouth via Basingstoke lot either. 16 out of 18 442s should be in service every weekday. The one train that isn't a 442 should be a 444.
5-car 444s on the Portsmouth slows, so that's the stopping service on the direct line and also the service via Basingstoke and Hedge End. During the peak this should double up to 10 on selected trips.
At least 5-car 444s on Poole all day - you should rarely see a 450 doing Poole duties from Dec 2018 unless it's short formation.
450s for the most of it should form the London Waterloo to Southampton Central stopping service.
450s to always form Portsmouth - Southampton and Portsmouth - Weymouth services. It is unclear as to whether the Portsmouth - Weymouth would be formed of 8 coaches then detach into 2x450 at Bournemouth, similar to what the WAT-WEY lot do. Judging by the timetable they've been given, I'd say probably not...
Hopefully this gives you more of an idea slightly as to what's in the works, but as I said before, this could always change.
From my observation Guilford, Godalming & Haslemere passengers would rather stand, to Woking or Guildford, on a 10 car 2+2 seated train than sit in the middle of 3 on a 450 with 3+2 seats. This is also demonstrated by the numbers who stand on the 3x450 peak "fasts" rather than occupy the middle seat.
No 450s from Guildford? Ace! Thanks, that information is really helpful.
If you like 450s then good for you , trust me, I won't grill you for that! It shows that you have immense patience and tolerance if you can enjoy riding those units!
Besides, I like Voyagers, so I'm in no position to judge!
If you prefer a 444 on a Hedge End service you may be interested to know that all Ports. Hbr via Eastleigh services are 444s on Saturdays. I don't know if this will remain like this post 2018.
Had to chuckle when I saw this. That's the weirdest but nicest compliment I've gotten in ages! Thanks!
Usually goes hand in hand with the Poole lot which are also 444s for the most or all of it on a Saturday as well as more 444 units are free and are running as 5 cars and not 10.
Although obviously not confirmed at the moment, I did manage to beat out a few possibilities or ideals from the managers - not trying to cause speculation or anything - and this is always subject to change, but to my understanding:
10-car 444s London Waterloo to Bournemouth, where it will divide with the front 5 cars going Weymouth. Rear 5 cars terminate.
10-car 442s on all but one (if I remember correctly) London Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour fast services all day every day. These will not be doing any other route, nor will they do the Portsmouth via Basingstoke lot either. 16 out of 18 442s should be in service every weekday. The one train that isn't a 442 should be a 444.
5-car 444s on the Portsmouth slows, so that's the stopping service on the direct line and also the service via Basingstoke and Hedge End. During the peak this should double up to 10 on selected trips.
At least 5-car 444s on Poole all day - you should rarely see a 450 doing Poole duties from Dec 2018 unless it's short formation.
450s for the most of it should form the London Waterloo to Southampton Central stopping service.
450s to always form Portsmouth - Southampton and Portsmouth - Weymouth services. It is unclear as to whether the Portsmouth - Weymouth would be formed of 8 coaches then detach into 2x450 at Bournemouth, similar to what the WAT-WEY lot do. Judging by the timetable they've been given, I'd say probably not...
Hopefully this gives you more of an idea slightly as to what's in the works, but as I said before, this could always change.
Between Woking and Havant, only Guildford, Haslemere and Petersfield passengers have access to the fast(er) services, although this may change under the proposed timetable. Currently that leaves Rowlands Castle, Liss, Liphook, Witley, Milford, Godalming, Farncombe and Worplesdon passengers who only have stopping services. While those are mostly smaller towns or villages, in aggregate these passengers must be a significant proportion of the total. At present there are options to interchange between fast and stopping trains at Haslemere in the down direction, which will not be possible under the proposed new timetable.I'd have thought it would make more sense to have predominantly 444s on the Waterloo-Southampton semi-fasts and predominantly 450s on the Portsmouth slows, because the former are 'faster' services, with more long-distance journeys to larger towns being taken (e.g. London to Eastleigh, South Coast to Farnborough). The latter will presumably be mostly used for fairly short journeys, or longer journeys to smaller places (e.g. London - Liphook or Liss), with the Portsmouth fasts favoured for longer-distance.
Exactly the point I was making a little further up the thread. I would be very, very surprised indeed if there are not still a significant number of 450s used on the slower Portsmouth Direct trains, particularly in the peak.Ever since this first started being discussed I have never thought it likely that there will be NO 450s at all on the Portsmouth Direct. They have also said that all trains will be ten car on the Weymouth route, (as far as Bournemouth), so they'll need more 444s over there as well.
I believe it is highly probable that 12.450s will remain in use on the "Direct" on the slower trains.
Exactly the point I was making a little further up the thread. I would be very, very surprised indeed if there are not still a significant number of 450s used on the slower Portsmouth Direct trains, particularly in the peak.
No 450s from Guildford? Ace! Thanks, that information is really helpful.
@TT-ONR-NRN, note that the 450 will still be operating to Ascot from Guildford, which I have seen them doing at the weekend anyway!Ascot to Guildford (I heard something about this now to be 450s instead of 456s by the New Year, if any sooner, unless I'm going mad????)
@TT-ONR-NRN, note that the 450 will still be operating to Ascot from Guildford, which I have seen them doing at the weekend anyway!
456s on Guildford-Ascot are replaced by 450s as a result of the cascade caused by the introduction of 707s, it has been part of the plan for a number of years and is unconnected to the 442s or 701s. 456s should be completely replaced by 450s on the route by the end of month. This allows the 456s to form up 10-car formations on Main Suburban routes from the December timetable. You wouldn't want to replace those with 450s, they won't be replaced until the 701s are coming on stream.
I never understood why SWT, when they ditched the 442s, chose to place an additional order for 450s rather than going for additional 444s which would have been a more appropriate replacement. Passengers on the Direct had just got used to the 444s replacing the slammers when most of them were taken away to run So'ton and Weymouth services. The incoming 450s were never going to be a popular substitution. It's particularly galling that on weekends the Direct is usually all 450s when there must be 444s available, especially on Sundays.
Ever since this first started being discussed I have never thought it likely that there will be NO 450s at all on the Portsmouth Direct. They have also said that all trains will be ten car on the Weymouth route, (as far as Bournemouth), so they'll need more 444s over there as well.
I believe it is highly probable that 12.450s will remain in use on the "Direct" on the slower trains.
How many of the 442s would need to enter service to free up enough 450s to enable all services that use 456s to use 450s (probably until enough Aventras enter service)?
...is it actually necessary to have all the Weymouths and Pooles 10 car in the middle of the day (say arriving London between 1100-1700 or departing London before 1500) away from the summer holiday season? I rarely encounter an overcrowded 5.444 on a Weymouth off-peak Mon-Fri.