Swanage to Wareham postponed again

[43096]

Correct as stated here



The article also states



If the Council actually paid out the £3.2m then with the £1.47m close to £5m for something that has yet to happen but realistically can not be recovered.

Please tell me I’m wrong and that this isn’t £5m of taxpayers’ money that has been ****ed up the wall on a scheme that was dubious to start with and has delivered nothing so far.

 

[Titfield]

Correct as stated here



The article also states



If the Council actually paid out the £3.2m then with the £1.47m close to £5m for something that has yet to happen but realistically can not be recovered.

Yes but then as you say there is the £500K for the level crossing at Norden, the £75K? grant for the dmu servicing depot at Corfe Castle Station = £5.245M

I seem to recollect reading somewhere that the grant for the DMU refurbishment wasnt quite enough so SR(T) made up the difference.

Then there is the £50K grant announced in December 2020 for the feasibility study into the Wareham service.

Some costs must have been incurred in all the DMU and mainline training / preparation including European Driving Licences.

Obviously a lot of the expenditure is not wasted - charters use the branch line, the DMUs can be used on branch line duties, training always has a value however in Heritage Rail terms a great deal of money has been expended with comparatively little (to date) passenger carrying on the section between Wareham (Worgret Junction) and Norden as a direct result.

I just hope that finally a trial service is run and the data collected / experience informs a well reasoned decision - whatever that decision may be.

IMHO the issue isnt the money spent on the infrastructure or the level crossing but the money spent on the DMUs when a fraction of this could have funded the hiring in costs for a two year trial and the trials to have been completed at least 4 years ago.

 

[VEP3417]

kind of a shame really, would haven been useful to travel to the diesel gala/beer festival directly rather than having to get off and use a bus ect

sort of annoying that empty platform is on the wrong side of the station really as in a way it would be easier if they diddnt have to go onto the mainline, less paperwork id imagine anyway

 

[paul1609]

I could well imagine someone living in Swanage and getting the train to the office in London a couple of days a week. I can't imagine them bussing it to Bournemouth for a connection so much.

Wareham Dorset is 3 hours 10 mins from Waterloo, on the WCML that's the equivalent of Penrith. I'm sure there are passengers that pop up to town a couple of times a week but add in another hour on a connecting heritage railway and I would imagine that the potential market is zero or very close to it. One of the issues that the Swanage Railway has is that Wareham is too far from London for anything but hardened enthusiasts to do a day trip and even then the cost is such that most of them will be travelling on priv tickets.

 

[swt_passenger]

Wareham Dorset is 3 hours 10 mins from Waterloo, on the WCML that's the equivalent of Penrith. I'm sure there are passengers that pop up to town a couple of times a week but add in another hour on a connecting heritage railway and I would imagine that the potential market is zero or very close to it. One of the issues that the Swanage Railway has is that Wareham is too far from London for anything but hardened enthusiasts to do a day trip and even then the cost is such that most of them will be travelling on priv tickets.

Isn’t that time today due to the diversion via Havant? I’m sure it’s typically 2h 13/22 in the normal timetable?

 

[paul1609]

Isn’t that time today due to the diversion via Havant? I’m sure it’s typically 2h 13/22 in the normal timetable?

Yes you're right 2 hr 26 for the off peak on Monday. For Penrith read Lancaster but the point still remains.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes you're right 2 hr 26 for the off peak on Monday. For Penrith read Lancaster but the point still remains.

Yes, it’s still a long time from London, as is Weymouth of course. Not so good for a day out.

 

[Bertone]

Yes, it’s still a long time from London, as is Weymouth of course. Not so good for a day out.

Interestingly, myself and three friends pre-covid, did have a successful day trip to Swanage.
Our Itinerary was catching the train from Waterloo, just after 9 o’clock to Poole where we had to change for a rail replacement bus service (engineering work had closed the line between Poole an Wareham), then picked up a pre-booked taxi from Wareham to Nordon for the train to Swanage.
We then stayed on the same train back to Corfe Castle where we alighted for lunch.
Then back to Swanage (with time on the beach for ice cream!) followed by open top bus ride (via Sandbanks) to Bournemouth to pick up the Waterloo return train arriving back in London probably about 20.00.
Busy day but really quite relaxing overall.

 

[Titfield]

Wareham Dorset is 3 hours 10 mins from Waterloo, on the WCML that's the equivalent of Penrith. I'm sure there are passengers that pop up to town a couple of times a week but add in another hour on a connecting heritage railway and I would imagine that the potential market is zero or very close to it. One of the issues that the Swanage Railway has is that Wareham is too far from London for anything but hardened enthusiasts to do a day trip and even then the cost is such that most of them will be travelling on priv tickets.

To do a full day from Swanage you need to be on the 06:27 from Wareham which arrives in London Waterloo at 08:50 approx.

This would mean a connecting service from Swanage at about 05:30. This just isnt going to happen for so many reasons.

I wont bother gong into the timings of the return journey but I am sure the picture is clear.

 

[30907]

If the service level required paid staff, that would not sit comfortably with the volunteer staff who may wonder why they are providing their services for free when others are being paid for the self same role. It could serve to be a demotivating, demoralising experience for the volunteers who may vote with their feet.

Which heritage railway do you cite as evidence for this, bearing in mind that most lines have a mix of paid and volunteer staff?
At what point does the number of paid staff become demoralising?

To do a full day from Swanage you need to be on the 06:27 from Wareham which arrives in London Waterloo at 08:50 approx.

Agreed, London for 9am is fairly unlikely, as in the days of the Royal Wessex (7.34-10.50/4.35-7.52), and at that time of day most people would drive on fairly empty roads (especially as they probably wouldn't live within walking distance of the stations).

But Poole/Bournemouth for 9-5 is plausible, possibly even Southampton, and at those times the A351 is getting busier. Plus some seasonal reverse commuting into Swanage (not the easiest of places for long stay parking, from recent offseason experience!) to supplement the day-trippers at Norden.

I am not saying it would be financially justifiable, merely that it's a sensible idea to explore - which is perhaps why the scheme has got further than any other.

 

[david1212]

Please tell me I’m wrong and that this isn’t £5m of taxpayers’ money that has been ****ed up the wall on a scheme that was dubious to start with and has delivered nothing so far.

I was not going to be so blunt fundamentally as I see this scheme so far.

Yes but then as you say there is the £500K for the level crossing at Norden, the £75K? grant for the dmu servicing depot at Corfe Castle Station = £5.245M

I seem to recollect reading somewhere that the grant for the DMU refurbishment wasnt quite enough so SR(T) made up the difference.

Then there is the £50K grant announced in December 2020 for the feasibility study into the Wareham service.

Some costs must have been incurred in all the DMU and mainline training / preparation including European Driving Licences.

Obviously a lot of the expenditure is not wasted - charters use the branch line, the DMUs can be used on branch line duties, training always has a value however in Heritage Rail terms a great deal of money has been expended with comparatively little (to date) passenger carrying on the section between Wareham (Worgret Junction) and Norden as a direct result.

I just hope that finally a trial service is run and the data collected / experience informs a well reasoned decision - whatever that decision may be.

IMHO the issue isn't the money spent on the infrastructure or the level crossing but the money spent on the DMUs when a fraction of this could have funded the hiring in costs for a two year trial and the trials to have been completed at least 4 years ago.

While as you state some benefits overall not a lot for over £5m.

Putting aside any terms in the funding that probably would prevent it happening if the DMU's were moved is there anywhere else that could benefit from the components added to run on the national network?

 

[paul1609]

Yes but then as you say there is the £500K for the level crossing at Norden, the £75K? grant for the dmu servicing depot at Corfe Castle Station = £5.245M

I seem to recollect reading somewhere that the grant for the DMU refurbishment wasnt quite enough so SR(T) made up the difference.

Then there is the £50K grant announced in December 2020 for the feasibility study into the Wareham service.

Some costs must have been incurred in all the DMU and mainline training / preparation including European Driving Licences.

Obviously a lot of the expenditure is not wasted - charters use the branch line, the DMUs can be used on branch line duties, training always has a value however in Heritage Rail terms a great deal of money has been expended with comparatively little (to date) passenger carrying on the section between Wareham (Worgret Junction) and Norden as a direct result.

I just hope that finally a trial service is run and the data collected / experience informs a well reasoned decision - whatever that decision may be.

IMHO the issue isnt the money spent on the infrastructure or the level crossing but the money spent on the DMUs when a fraction of this could have funded the hiring in costs for a two year trial and the trials to have been completed at least 4 years ago.

The issue imho isn't really the cost of the rolling stock it's the cost of the operating license to get from Worgret Junction to Wareham. The delay is really that the Swanage railway hasn't been able to resource obtaining that license from the Orr. The first trial proved that operating using an external operating company was prohibitively expensive. The only way that the second trial could have proceeded would have been with the Swanage own staff. Yes it could have proceeded earlier with hired in rolling stock but the time line is actually dictated by the Orr license which is still not achieved.

 

[A0wen]

As a commuter, I wouldn't mind the Swanage units, so long as they were reliable and well maintained.

You wouldn't - but you're not an "average" commuter as we've established on other posts.

Your average commuter would though - people wouldn't be happy trundling along at 40mph on 60 year old DMUs on a daily basis - there are enough complaints on these boards about ancient class 313, 455 etc.

I'm not sure there's a huge amount of commuting from the Swanage area in any case - Swanage has a population of 9000.

And if it needs council support, then a dedicated bus link to Wareham using modern buses would be cheaper, more flexible and better for the environment by a long, long chalk.

 

[yorksrob]

The issue imho isn't really the cost of the rolling stock it's the cost of the operating license to get from Worgret Junction to Wareham. The delay is really that the Swanage railway hasn't been able to resource obtaining that license from the Orr. The first trial proved that operating using an external operating company was prohibitively expensive. The only way that the second trial could have proceeded would have been with the Swanage own staff. Yes it could have proceeded earlier with hired in rolling stock but the time line is actually dictated by the Orr license which is still not achieved.

If that's the case then we're talking about a one-off enabling cost that should be provided by one of the tourist or transport authorities.

You wouldn't - but you're not an "average" commuter as we've established on other posts.

Your average commuter would though - people wouldn't be happy trundling along at 40mph on 60 year old DMUs on a daily basis - there are enough complaints on these boards about ancient class 313, 455 etc.

I'm not sure there's a huge amount of commuting from the Swanage area in any case - Swanage has a population of 9000.

And if it needs council support, then a dedicated bus link to Wareham using modern buses would be cheaper, more flexible and better for the environment by a long, long chalk.

That sounds similar to the 150 I'm traveling on today. Yes, with my commuter hat on I'd prefer the 158 back, but this will do in terms of commuting.

In terms of day trips, In not sure either Weymouth or Swanage are out of the zone for one so long as the cost isn't prohibitive. A day of about 10:00/11:00am to 9:00pm seems optimum for a day out, and that would seem perfectly possible to either from London.

 

[A0wen]

That sounds similar to the 150 I'm traveling on today. Yes, with my commuter hat on I'd prefer the 158 back, but this will do in terms of commuting.

In terms of day trips, In not sure either Weymouth or Swanage are out of the zone for one so long as the cost isn't prohibitive. A day of about 10:00/11:00am to 9:00pm seems optimum for a day out, and that would seem perfectly possible to either from London.

No - the 150 is 20-30 years younger than a "heritage" DMU is. And in some ways even that's "too old" for regular commuting.

Wareham to Waterloo is 2.5 hours each way - so a 5 hour round trip before you factor in the time of getting to Waterloo etc - that's a long day, so it's an occasional day trip, not one most normal people would regularly make irrespective of cost. Yes there are no doubt some "hard core" commuters who will put up with that length of commute but those are such a small number that they are not representative.

And if this is about providing a high quality public transport link from the Isle of Purbeck to the mainline rail network then a modern, frequent, dedicated bus will be quicker, more flexible, cheaper, disabled access friendly and more environmentally friendly than a class 10x or 11x plying back and forward as a glorified shuttle.

 

[Djgr]

Please tell me I’m wrong and that this isn’t £5m of taxpayers’ money that has been ****ed up the wall on a scheme that was dubious to start with and has delivered nothing so far.

This is the elephant in the room isn't it!

Wonder how this ties in with the government's Levelling Up Agenda?

 

[A0wen]

This is the elephant in the room isn't it!

Wonder how this ties in with the government's Levelling Up Agenda?

Vast majority of the funding was the local authority so not sure on the relevance of the "government's Levelling Up Agenda" ? (Unless you're trying to make a cheap point).

To quote http://www.dorsetcommunityrail.com/purbeck-community-rail-partnership/ :

"In 2010, Purbeck District Council and Dorset County Council committed £3.2million for re-signalling improvements and other work needed between Wareham Station, Worgret Junction and Swanage Railway‘s existing signalling system at Corfe Castle. This work is part of Network Rail‘s 2013 Poole to Wool re-signalling scheme.

BP also contributed £500,000 towards works at Norden Level Crossing. This was a legacy donation to the community when the oilfield was sold to Perenco UK Limited

Swanage Railway was awarded a £1.47 million government grant from the Coastal Communities Fund. This successful bid helped provide the finance to enable the refurbishment of rolling stock and improvements to the infrastructure."

So the last bit was from Central Government, but was part of a wider grant package to Coastal Communities across the UK for example the "Round 5" funding from 2018 details are here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/910977/CCF_Projects_R5.pdf

And includes payments of £ 2.4m to Whitehaven to create a dedicated facility for water sports and recreational activities and storage facilities at Whitehaven Harbour, £ 2.1m to Forest of Dean council to develop safe, attractive transport routes into Lydney Harbour and develop the area as a recreation and tourism destination, £ 3.6m to redevelop the Old Town Hall building in Hoylake to create an arts based leisure and retail hub and £ 1.75m to Blackpool Council to create Blackpool’s first museum, which will tell the story of Blackpool’s role in the development of British popular entertainment and the Great British seaside holiday.

 

[Djgr]

Vast majority of the funding was the local authority so not sure on the relevance of the "government's Levelling Up Agenda" ? (Unless you're trying to make a cheap point).

To quote http://www.dorsetcommunityrail.com/purbeck-community-rail-partnership/ :

"In 2010, Purbeck District Council and Dorset County Council committed £3.2million for re-signalling improvements and other work needed between Wareham Station, Worgret Junction and Swanage Railway‘s existing signalling system at Corfe Castle. This work is part of Network Rail‘s 2013 Poole to Wool re-signalling scheme.

BP also contributed £500,000 towards works at Norden Level Crossing. This was a legacy donation to the community when the oilfield was sold to Perenco UK Limited

Swanage Railway was awarded a £1.47 million government grant from the Coastal Communities Fund. This successful bid helped provide the finance to enable the refurbishment of rolling stock and improvements to the infrastructure."

So the last bit was from Central Government, but was part of a wider grant package to Coastal Communities across the UK for example the "Round 5" funding from 2018 details are here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/910977/CCF_Projects_R5.pdf

And includes payments of £ 2.4m to Whitehaven to create a dedicated facility for water sports and recreational activities and storage facilities at Whitehaven Harbour, £ 2.1m to Forest of Dean council to develop safe, attractive transport routes into Lydney Harbour and develop the area as a recreation and tourism destination, £ 3.6m to redevelop the Old Town Hall building in Hoylake to create an arts based leisure and retail hub and £ 1.75m to Blackpool Council to create Blackpool’s first museum, which will tell the story of Blackpool’s role in the development of British popular entertainment and the Great British seaside holiday.

Let's hope the projects in Whitehaven, Lydney, Hoylake and Blackpool have a more productive outcome.

 

[A0wen]

Let's hope the projects in Whitehaven, Lydney, Hoylake and Blackpool have a more productive outcome.

Who's to say the £ 1.4m that went to the Swanage hasn't ?

Whilst it may have been towards the link to Wareham, refurbished rolling stock can be used productively by the railway and the infrastructure improvements may also be to the wider benefit of the railway.

I don't think you can simply dismiss it as "lost money" - it may still yield benefits albeit not to the originally envisaged level.

 

[AY1975]

That is the perennial problem with 'commuter service over heritage lines'. That then leads to conflicts between the two 'sides' if they get even close to running together: do you charge a premium for heritage services? Are the customers willing to pay that? Would they all try and cram on the non-heritage (maybe to beat the steam train to get better photos of it, without actually riding it)? Would volunteers want to book on at unearthly hours to run non-heritage services? If not, do you have paid staff? Could the service's income support paid staff? And so on; there must be millions of other considerations, some obvious and some less so.

Exactly, the issue of commuter and community rail services over heritage lines has already been discussed extensively in a number of earlier now-closed threads such as this one: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-services-aimed-at-regular-passengers.215536/ and this one: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/trivia-community-rail-services-on-heritage-railways.172078/

 

[Mike Machin]

Some very interesting responses and it's great to see so many different opinions - all very valid. I personally think now is not the right time for anything that will incur additional expense, as we are in a very uncertain period at the moment.

First of all, even on the established main network, fewer people are commuting and it's unlikely that this will change any time soon. For a lot of people, even those who have returned to the office, it is still only part-time and for many, many people I know this will be permanent. A lot of commuters have also rediscovered the flexibility offered by using their own personal transport, and are unlikely to return to public transport in the near future. New ways of working on-line has resulted in far fewer business journeys are being made, and this applies to all forms of transport.

The considerable increase in all forms of fuel makes operating heritage railways a lot more marginal in their profitability, and the squeeze on household budgets means that people will have to consider optional discretionary purchases much more carefully which will have an impact on leisure travel and visitor numbers.

For now, all heritage railways will need to look at all manner of cost-reductions, including running fewer trains, careful management of resources, cuts to non-necessary expenditure and substitution of traction to keep costs down - for steam, shorter trains with smaller locomotives, plus the inclusion of more diesel workings in the timetable.

 

[yorksrob]

No - the 150 is 20-30 years younger than a "heritage" DMU is. And in some ways even that's "too old" for regular commuting.

Wareham to Waterloo is 2.5 hours each way - so a 5 hour round trip before you factor in the time of getting to Waterloo etc - that's a long day, so it's an occasional day trip, not one most normal people would regularly make irrespective of cost. Yes there are no doubt some "hard core" commuters who will put up with that length of commute but those are such a small number that they are not representative.

And if this is about providing a high quality public transport link from the Isle of Purbeck to the mainline rail network then a modern, frequent, dedicated bus will be quicker, more flexible, cheaper, disabled access friendly and more environmentally friendly than a class 10x or 11x plying back and forward as a glorified shuttle.

The Chiltern bubble car was a previous generation of unit to its stable matters, but it put in several years of service.

I'm not denying that Swanage is probably too far for a daily commute, but for someone doing a day trip, or even someone doing part time in the office, it's more than do-able.

 

[bluenoxid]

There is no guarantee that all £1.47m has been allocated. Operating those services might be a milestone that holds back some of the funding.

 

[341o2]

Some very interesting responses and it's great to see so many different opinions - all very valid. I personally think now is not the right time for anything that will incur additional expense, as we are in a very uncertain period at the moment.

That is what the chairman of the Swanage Railway has announced, that the railway has not fully recovered from the effects of Covid and with the current uncertain situation, the existing Swanage to Norden must take priority.

Principal problems have been the delay in obtaining wheelsets for the DMUs that are fit for mainline service. no sooner were the units delivered then Covid struck.

The 2017 Wareham service had to run because of third party investment. As well as the cost of hiring stock, there was the collision between 80104 and 34070. Inability to run steam hauled trains plus a poor summer further added to the railway's losses.

The Wareham service will first have to prove it's viability as a summer tourist service, and I can't see it progressing beyond that for the foreseeable future. In the summer, there can be lengthy queues on the Wareham bypass, it can be quicker to go through the town centre

 

[A0wen]

The Chiltern bubble car was a previous generation of unit to its stable matters, but it put in several years of service.

I'm not denying that Swanage is probably too far for a daily commute, but for someone doing a day trip, or even someone doing part time in the office, it's more than do-able.

The Chiltern Bubble car was withdrawn 7 years ago - and part of the reason cited was problems in sourcing spare parts to keep it going.

Can we try to live in the 2020s rather than the 1990s ? Either the rail network is a proper public transport system fit for the 21st century or it can be a glorified tourist attraction for those who keep hankering after the 1970s/80s or 90s. But that won't appeal to the people who have to use it regularly.

 

[LowLevel]

He who pays the piper calls the tune. The DfT would want a say in the decision making process which would be contrary to the principles and ethos of the volunteer led, volunteer run democratic Swanage Railway.

If the service level required paid staff, that would not sit comfortably with the volunteer staff who may wonder why they are providing their services for free when others are being paid for the self same role. It could serve to be a demotivating, demoralising experience for the volunteers who may vote with their feet.

Fewer volunteers means more paid staff means fewer volunteers means more paid staff.

I'm not sure that's a huge issue. I am a front line, full time rail worker but in my free time I do quite a bit of work for a large heritage railway, and have done for many years. At my railway there is a core paid staff as well as a large team of volunteers and the one doesn't really make much difference to another - we all work together. Sometimes I work as a volunteer supervising a team of paid staff, sometimes only one person in a team is paid. Most of the paid staff also volunteer to one degree or another. It is much healthier to just get on with what is needed to ensure the success of the railway.

 

[yorksrob]

The Chiltern Bubble car was withdrawn 7 years ago - and part of the reason cited was problems in sourcing spare parts to keep it going.

Can we try to live in the 2020s rather than the 1990s ? Either the rail network is a proper public transport system fit for the 21st century or it can be a glorified tourist attraction for those who keep hankering after the 1970s/80s or 90s. But that won't appeal to the people who have to use it regularly.

Ultimately having a train will appeal more to people wanting to use the network than not having a train. The units have been refurbished especially and there's no reason to expect that they would deter people from using the line over a 150 or turbo etc.

 

[A0wen]

Ultimately having a train will appeal more to people wanting to use the network than not having a train. The units have been refurbished especially and there's no reason to expect that they would deter people from using the line over a 150 or turbo etc.

For the dozen or so a day who *might* want to use it.

The reality is this has barely got legs - it was never a viable commuter option and was always more about giving the Swanage Railway a link onto the mainline.

Suggesting commuters will use a clapped out 60 year old DMU claiming it's "faster and more environmentally friendly" than the alternatives is for the birds.

Like so many posts, you're simply blinded by your own prejudices.

 

[Brush 4]

Of course most of the general public wouldn't know a 117 from a 17, 47, 70 or 170. They are all just trains, even when they are not. The heritage DMU is shiny so, would probably be considered newer than a work worn 150 or 158. Days out to London can be covered comfortably as they used to be by leaving Wareham after 09.30 I think it was on weekdays, earlier on weekends. Get back about 2230/23.00. It is only in winter when that is less desirable, summer is fine. However, I still think Swanage has no intention of running these trains all year round or even in summer.

 

[yorksrob]

For the dozen or so a day who *might* want to use it.

The reality is this has barely got legs - it was never a viable commuter option and was always more about giving the Swanage Railway a link onto the mainline.

Suggesting commuters will use a clapped out 60 year old DMU claiming it's "faster and more environmentally friendly" than the alternatives is for the birds.

Like so many posts, you're simply blinded by your own prejudices.

The reality is that most people who are inclined to use the train, just want to be able to use the train to reach their destination and not have to change onto buses pootling around traffic clogged local roads.