Swanage to Wareham postponed again

[A0wen]

Of course most of the general public wouldn't know a 117 from a 17, 47, 70 or 170. They are all just trains, even when they are not. The heritage DMU is shiny so, would probably be considered newer than a work worn 150 or 158. Days out to London can be covered comfortably as they used to be by leaving Wareham after 09.30 I think it was on weekdays, earlier on weekends. Get back about 2230/23.00. It is only in winter when that is less desirable, summer is fine. However, I still think Swanage has no intention of running these trains all year round or even in summer.

But part of the point was to provider a commuter service, not a glorified tourist train.

And the general public are savvy enough to know the difference between a 60 year old train and a 20 year old one - and if they don't the local media will no doubt help them make that distinction.

I maintain if it's about providing a clean, reliable, comfortable, environmentally friendly service than a newish Volvo / ADL / DAF bus beats a 60 year old DMU on each of those every day of the week - it's also more flexible and more cost effective.

 

[tumbles]

As someone who first got introduced to the Swanage Railway when it was still just going as far as Herston Halt its been great to watch it overcome many hurdles over the years. But I do think the project to get to Wareham was always something that always seemed like a long term goal but one similar to the GWSR reaching Cheltenham Spa.. i.e it would be nice but it's never going to happen. Granted the line was there all the way from Worgret Jnc but the complexity of the mainline aspect meant it would be a major headache. I do wonder if it had been better to look at the feasibility of running a line from WJ to Wareham station completely removing the aspect of 'mainline' if NR then handed over the rest to Swanage. Would it have cost £5m? Possibly.. 2-3 times more, would it have allowed SR to run trains to Wareham on a much more flexible basis (i.e summertime), absolutely.

Wareham isn't exactly a touristy town and the station isn't exactly central. Anyone wanting to travel onwards from Wareham is 99% more likely to get in a car and drive to Wareham.. or dare I say it Poole.

I'm sure I'll get shot down suggesting the Worgret to Wareham link but if it was financially viable then surely it's got to be worth consideration again.

 

[yorksrob]

As someone who first got introduced to the Swanage Railway when it was still just going as far as Herston Halt its been great to watch it overcome many hurdles over the years. But I do think the project to get to Wareham was always something that always seemed like a long term goal but one similar to the GWSR reaching Cheltenham Spa.. i.e it would be nice but it's never going to happen. Granted the line was there all the way from Worgret Jnc but the complexity of the mainline aspect meant it would be a major headache. I do wonder if it had been better to look at the feasibility of running a line from WJ to Wareham station completely removing the aspect of 'mainline' if NR then handed over the rest to Swanage. Would it have cost £5m? Possibly.. 2-3 times more, would it have allowed SR to run trains to Wareham on a much more flexible basis (i.e summertime), absolutely.

Wareham isn't exactly a touristy town and the station isn't exactly central. Anyone wanting to travel onwards from Wareham is 99% more likely to get in a car and drive to Wareham.. or dare I say it Poole.

I'm sure I'll get shot down suggesting the Worgret to Wareham link but if it was financially viable then surely it's got to be worth consideration again.

To be honest, what's proposed isn't so different to what the NYMR do between Grosmont and Whitby. The differences being that they started some time before the pandemic and they also have their own platform at Whitby.

 

[paul1609]

To be honest, what's proposed isn't so different to what the NYMR do between Grosmont and Whitby. The differences being that they started some time before the pandemic and they also have their own platform at Whitby.

To be honest comparing the Nymr extension over a lightly trafficked one train 30 mph branch line to the Swanage extending over a 70 mph dc electrified mainline with 2 tph is like comparing chalk and cheese.

 

[A0wen]

As someone who first got introduced to the Swanage Railway when it was still just going as far as Herston Halt its been great to watch it overcome many hurdles over the years. But I do think the project to get to Wareham was always something that always seemed like a long term goal but one similar to the GWSR reaching Cheltenham Spa.. i.e it would be nice but it's never going to happen. Granted the line was there all the way from Worgret Jnc but the complexity of the mainline aspect meant it would be a major headache. I do wonder if it had been better to look at the feasibility of running a line from WJ to Wareham station completely removing the aspect of 'mainline' if NR then handed over the rest to Swanage. Would it have cost £5m? Possibly.. 2-3 times more, would it have allowed SR to run trains to Wareham on a much more flexible basis (i.e summertime), absolutely.

Wareham isn't exactly a touristy town and the station isn't exactly central. Anyone wanting to travel onwards from Wareham is 99% more likely to get in a car and drive to Wareham.. or dare I say it Poole.

I'm sure I'll get shot down suggesting the Worgret to Wareham link but if it was financially viable then surely it's got to be worth consideration again.

I'd have thought the parking charges at Wareham were *much* more attractive than Poole - £3.10 at Wareham vs £ 9.90 at Poole.

 

[yorksrob]

To be honest comparing the Nymr extension over a lightly trafficked one train 30 mph branch line to the Swanage extending over a 70 mph dc electrified mainline with 2 tph is like comparing chalk and cheese.

If anything, Wareham is much easier because it's a very short stretch of shared line that's double track.

 

[A0wen]

If anything, Wareham is much easier because it's a very short stretch of shared line that's double track.

And much harder because it's on a mainline with regular services and 3rd rail DC electrification in the mix. As opposed to a relatively lightly trafficked, unelectrified branch line.

 

[James H]

Why do people keep going on about a commuter service? That hasn't been part of any formal proposal I've been aware of (as an SRT member) for many years, if ever.

All the references to commuters in this thread are red herrings.

The proposal has always been for a daytime service for a limited summer season, with timings that can be accommodated within a single shift to keep costs low(er).

I am a strong supporter of the establishment of a regular Wareham service. Equally I am perfectly content with the trust's stated position that 2022 still holds too many uncertainties for it to be prudent to proceed right now.

 

[Brush 4]

If it is going to be genuinely useful, it needs at least 1 early and 1 late train to connect at Wareham, to allow longer day trips to places beyond Bournemouth. If SR won't do it then SWR should. there is too much insularity on some preserved lines. It's hard to get away from the grown men playing trains jibe, if they won't provide a genuinely useful public service, as opposed to a train ride just for the sake of it. A 158 to/from Swanage, stabling in the bay until dep. could fit into the timetable, especially the early/late trains, except for the big gala weekend. The ELR, WSR and others should have modern service trains imposed in the timetable, if they won't do it themselves.

 

[paul1609]

If it is going to be genuinely useful, it needs at least 1 early and 1 late train to connect at Wareham, to allow longer day trips to places beyond Bournemouth. If SR won't do it then SWR should. there is too much insularity on some preserved lines. It's hard to get away from the grown men playing trains jibe, if they won't provide a genuinely useful public service, as opposed to a train ride just for the sake of it. A 158 to/from Swanage, stabling in the bay until dep. could fit into the timetable, especially the early/late trains, except for the big gala weekend. The ELR, WSR and others should have modern service trains imposed in the timetable, if they won't do it themselves.

At 25 mph line speed taking in to account acceleration/deceleration and stops at intermediate stations, Swanage to Wareham is going to take at least 50 mins, to Bournemouth 1hr 15, Waterloo 3 hr 15. Passenger numbers are going to be very low requiring a huge amount of subsidy probably in excess of £1 per passenger km. Who is going to provide this level of subsidy?

 

[zwk500]

If anything, Wareham is much easier because it's a very short stretch of shared line that's double track.

Worgret junction only has a single connection, so it's much harder because of the requirement for wrong road working and the platform requirements at Wareham.

 

[Bertie the bus]

If it is going to be genuinely useful, it needs at least 1 early and 1 late train to connect at Wareham, to allow longer day trips to places beyond Bournemouth. If SR won't do it then SWR should. there is too much insularity on some preserved lines. It's hard to get away from the grown men playing trains jibe, if they won't provide a genuinely useful public service, as opposed to a train ride just for the sake of it. A 158 to/from Swanage, stabling in the bay until dep. could fit into the timetable, especially the early/late trains, except for the big gala weekend. The ELR, WSR and others should have modern service trains imposed in the timetable, if they won't do it themselves.

So organisations should dispense with trivialities like feasibility studies, or ignore them if they show a service wouldn’t be viable like on the ELR, and just impose services on heritage railways because if there’s track there should be a public service.

Several lines have either tried or contemplated public services and they have either not even got off the ground or failed. There should be a hint there.

 

[341o2]

Worgret junction only has a single connection, so it's much harder because of the requirement for wrong road working and the platform requirements at Wareham.

Worgret to Wareham has bi directional signalling and trains may use either platform in any direction

 

[zwk500]

Worgret to Wareham has bi directional signalling and trains may use either platform in any direction

Worgret to Wareham is fully signalled but it's still only connected to the down line. Signalled or not, a mile of wrong-road running isn't going to make capacity easier to find. Wareham trains can use either platform BUT you can't depart from the Down platform to the Up line, and it's still only 1 platform for each line so getting gaps in between the mainline trains is still a problem, especially as those trains are timed around constraints elsewhere.

 

[Titfield]

Worgret to Wareham is fully signalled but it's still only connected to the down line. Signalled or not, a mile of wrong-road running isn't going to make capacity easier to find. Wareham trains can use either platform BUT you can't depart from the Down platform to the Up line, and it's still only 1 platform for each line so getting gaps in between the mainline trains is still a problem, especially as those trains are timed around constraints elsewhere.

As has been suggested previously one solution would be to reinstate use of the bay platform on the upside though this would mean moving a NR electrical cabinet which is in the four foot and relocating the flora and fauna (protected) which now live in the overgrown habitat.

This would be simpler and cheaper than reinstating the bay platform on the down side as that area is now occupied by the station car park.

Any form of appraisal of the likely traffic volumes would indicate that commuter services and year round community services would not be financially viable*. The likely level of subsidy could not be justified and the monies could be better spent on other public transport projects for example increasing the Poole - Wareham-Swanage bus service to half hourly in the summer. A summer only service at times similar to that of the 2017 trial to support and encourage public leisure travel would imho be worth properly trialling to ascertain just what demand there is and what level of subsidy may be required. A view could then be taken as to whether that was affordable and a good use of public money given as mentioned earlier other possible ways of improving public transport.

The concern has to be though of the challenge to get people out of cars full stop. Having them drive to Wareham (as opposed to Norden) does not seem to me to be the kind of leap forward we wish to see. We need to get them to use NR to get to Wareham. The issue with that is the fare levels needed to be attractive would mean a very large subsidy indeed due to the revenue foregone.

*I do think that SR need to be far clearer in what their intentions are. References to "reinstating services to Wareham" are not helpful as it appears that many of the general public interpret this as meaning a full 7 day a week year round service from 7am to 10pm at night. Why cant they say their plan is to reintroduce a service which operates summer only 4 times a day between 10am and 5pm? be upfront: say a commuter service is NOT in the plan, describe what they mean by community service.

 

[paul1609]

I think the trouble with running a community service is that the vast majority of visitors to Purbeck are there for a weekend or longer break. They are also camping/ caravanning/self catering accommodation. For a family in those sort of circumstances the car is very much the only option. With a few exceptions 95% plus of visitors to heritage railways arrive by road transport. I've done quite a lot of market research in to that. In the south of England even railways like the Isle of Wight only attract about 8 % of their custom from rail at Smallbrook Junction.

 

[Mike Machin]

I don't think it will ever be possible to get most people out of their cars - especially families. The shear convenience of just strapping-in the kids, with all of their devices accessible through the car's infotainment systems or connected via usb or blue tooth, no hanging around with fractious kids when they are tired, being able to stop where and when they want is the only way to travel.
Rail is ideal for long-distance singles/couples to travel ultra long-distance by ultra high-speed services, or for commuting into or visiting major cities. And, heritage lines make a lovely half-day out.
But, other than that, travelling by train is as outmoded as the horse and cart, and with adoption of EVs, even the 'green card' no longer applies if the train is powered by igniting dirty flammable liquid to achieve propulsion.

 

[yorksrob]

I think the trouble with running a community service is that the vast majority of visitors to Purbeck are there for a weekend or longer break. They are also camping/ caravanning/self catering accommodation. For a family in those sort of circumstances the car is very much the only option. With a few exceptions 95% plus of visitors to heritage railways arrive by road transport. I've done quite a lot of market research in to that. In the south of England even railways like the Isle of Wight only attract about 8 % of their custom from rail at Smallbrook Junction.

Families will generally prefer the car to take all their junk with them. But that's true of everywhere, not just Swanage. There are plenty of people who use the train for leisure elsewhere, so why not Purbeck ?

 

[zwk500]

Families will generally prefer the car to take all their junk with them. But that's true of everywhere, not just Swanage. There are plenty of people who use the train for leisure elsewhere, so why not Purbeck ?

The main group of people who beenfit from a mainline connection are those tourists who are specifically visiting the railway.
The beach goers will want to drive anyway, the line is too slow and the stock not attractive to commuters, and the heritage line service pattern unlikely to meet the needs of long weekenders.
If swanage want to run anything to Wareham, personally I'd focus on running the first and last 1 or 2 trains from swanage on Saturdays and Sundays only. Gives an option for mainline connection that can be worked into the timetable whilst preserving the heritage line as its primary purpose - a visitor attraction.

 

[yorksrob]

The main group of people who beenfit from a mainline connection are those tourists who are specifically visiting the railway.
The beach goers will want to drive anyway, the line is too slow and the stock not attractive to commuters, and the heritage line service pattern unlikely to meet the needs of long weekenders.
If swanage want to run anything to Wareham, personally I'd focus on running the first and last 1 or 2 trains from swanage on Saturdays and Sundays only. Gives an option for mainline connection that can be worked into the timetable whilst preserving the heritage line as its primary purpose - a visitor attraction.

Not necessarily. With good connections people could use the railway to visit the town, although it would also be useful for people to get to the railway.

 

[tumbles]

At 25 mph line speed taking in to account acceleration/deceleration and stops at intermediate stations, Swanage to Wareham is going to take at least 50 mins, to Bournemouth 1hr 15, Waterloo 3 hr 15. Passenger numbers are going to be very low requiring a huge amount of subsidy probably in excess of £1 per passenger km. Who is going to provide this level of subsidy?

Mind you a typical summer day can easily take 1+ hour to get from Swanage to the first Wareham roundabout that meets the A352. Maybe Swanage should consider another park and ride just by WJ!

Families will generally prefer the car to take all their junk with them. But that's true of everywhere, not just Swanage. There are plenty of people who use the train for leisure elsewhere, so why not Purbeck ?

Not just that but cost. We have taken the kids camping now they are old enough at a site by Harmons Cross and it still works out something like £25 return for the four of us. A weeks parking in Swanage at the main beach car park is £33. Can’t compete with that.

 

[Brush 4]

The subsidy argument is invalid as most services need subsidy so, why should Swanage or WSR or ELR have different criteria? Rail services are becoming increasingly important for environmental reasons. The St Ives park'n' ride has been running for years. Norden P&R is successful. Rawtenstall to Manchester is hardly an obscure branch line. The WSR keep stalling over a Taunton service so, GWR should run one if they won't. WSR never even tried it. If Dartmoor Rly were already running Okehampton to say, a platform at Coleford, that would have been no use to anyone so, GWR should step in and run to Exeter. Oh look, they have and it seems to be successful so far in winter. They haven't had the chance to see how the summer season works out yet. It needs subsidy, so what, everything does. If subsidy is supposed to be an argument against then shut down most of the network....................

 

[30907]

The main group of people who beenfit from a mainline connection are those tourists who are specifically visiting the railway.
The beach goers will want to drive anyway,

Not necessarily - because Swanage station is well sited for town and beach, people can and do use Norden as a P and R station, and the line isn't solely used by people "visiting a railway."
In addition, there are plenty of people who will use public transport for days out from home (eg from the Bournemouth and Southampton conurbations) or while they are holidaying - including to go to a beach.

the line is too slow.... and the heritage line service pattern unlikely to meet the needs of long weekenders.

Agreed

 

[43096]

The subsidy argument is invalid as most services need subsidy so, why should Swanage or WSR or ELR have different criteria? Rail services are becoming increasingly important for environmental reasons.

A kettle, or indeed a 1950s/60s built DMU is not a good environmental advert.

 

[zwk500]

The subsidy argument is invalid as most services need subsidy so, why should Swanage or WSR or ELR have different criteria?

None of these are part of the national network nor are they covered by the same legal framework. They are charities or commercial organisations, and need to be treated in line with other such organisations.

Rail services are becoming increasingly important for environmental reasons.

Steam trains burn coal, and old diesel Locos don't exactly burn the hydrocarbons cleanly. If you want to close heritage railways to provide a modern rail service, you'll need to do it properly - starting with the economic basis. I would be very surprised if any heritage railway in the UK could be found to support a business case for reconstruction under the same criteria any other scheme would be considered (GRIP/PACE framework).

The St Ives park'n' ride has been running for years. Norden P&R is successful. Rawtenstall to Manchester is hardly an obscure branch line.

I thought the argument was that people wouldn't get in the car at all but use the train from origin (or at least further away)?

The WSR keep stalling over a Taunton service so, GWR should run one if they won't. WSR never even tried it.

I'm pretty sure Taunton has substantial operational issues with turning round a passenger service that need signalling alterations before it can run. And why should GWR take over the WSR just because they are focusing on their primary market rather than making themselves financially unviable? If GWR run the trains the WSR may well need to be reconstructed to modern accessibility standards as well, so be careful what you wish for.

If Dartmoor Rly were already running Okehampton to say, a platform at Coleford, that would have been no use to anyone so, GWR should step in and run to Exeter. Oh look, they have and it seems to be successful so far in winter. They haven't had the chance to see how the summer season works out yet.

Yes, because running from a town earmarked for massive development on lines that have always been part of the national network to the nearest major economic and employment centre is completely the same as running from a town of quaint tourist charm to a wayside intermediate station dependant upon onward connections by road or rail.

It needs subsidy, so what, everything does. If subsidy is supposed to be an argument against then shut down most of the network....................

The level of subsidy required is key to this. Although there is a good argument to revisit some of the quieter services on the network.

 

[paul1609]

The subsidy argument is invalid as most services need subsidy so, why should Swanage or WSR or ELR have different criteria? Rail services are becoming increasingly important for environmental reasons. The St Ives park'n' ride has been running for years. Norden P&R is successful. Rawtenstall to Manchester is hardly an obscure branch line. The WSR keep stalling over a Taunton service so, GWR should run one if they won't. WSR never even tried it. If Dartmoor Rly were already running Okehampton to say, a platform at Coleford, that would have been no use to anyone so, GWR should step in and run to Exeter. Oh look, they have and it seems to be successful so far in winter. They haven't had the chance to see how the summer season works out yet. It needs subsidy, so what, everything does. If subsidy is supposed to be an argument against then shut down most of the network....................

I think you'd be quite surprised at how low the Swanage Railways passengers originating at Norden Park n Ride are. Its actually a 350 space car park serving several attractions by far the biggest of which is Corfe Castle national trust, visitor centre and village. The biggest stations for passengers on the heritage railway are by far Swanage and Corfe.

 

[Titfield]

SR traffic's busiest point of origin is Swanage followed by Norden (Purbeck Park). Every time Dorset Council puts up the price of parking at Norden (Purbeck Park) it seems to encourage traffic to continue to drive into Swanage rather than parking and getting the train. Corfe Castle has a lot of traffic but these are pax who have originated at Swanage or Norden.

 

[paul1609]

SR traffic's busiest point of origin is Swanage followed by Norden (Purbeck Park). Every time Dorset Council puts up the price of parking at Norden (Purbeck Park) it seems to encourage traffic to continue to drive into Swanage rather than parking and getting the train. Corfe Castle has a lot of traffic but these are pax who have originated at Swanage or Norden.

Do you have any actual figures? My info is obviously out of date.

 

[341o2]

Norden park and ride was constructed specifically to reduce pressure on Corfe, which has limited parking facilities.

 

[paul1609]

I

Norden park and ride was constructed specifically to reduce pressure on Corfe, which has limited parking facilities.

Indeed but its basically a platform and ticket hut built alongside a council run car park whose main attraction is Corfe Castle and its village. Titfield can possibly give us more information but previously the biggest generator by far for the Swanage Railway was by far Swanage itself.