Swanage to Wareham postponed again

[Titfield]

My only recent visit to the railway was last year. I travelled from South Wales to Wareham by train, took the bus from Wareham to Swanage, the train from there to Corfe Castle and back, and then repeated the outward journey to get home.

It was a long day, but I accepted that this would be the case, mostly because of the length of the journey from and back to South Wales. I had to wait for buses and trains at different times when in Purbeck, but it wasn't a problem as I was well aware of the times before I made the visit.

I'd have liked to take a direct train from Wareham to Swanage, but I understood that there have been a lot of problems with the arrangements (as detailed above and elsewhere), so it wasn't an option. Should it become an option in the future, I'll try to take the journey - but it's not a reason for not going to the railway again at some time. Such matters are outwith my control, so I'll accept what's offered.

This "customer behaviour" highlights one of the financial issues with operating to / from Wareham. The "customer" will visit Swanage whether there is the rail link to / from Wareham or not. Thus the only additional revenue SR receives is the difference between the Wareham <> Swanage return fare and the Corfe castle <> Swanage return fare possibly £4 or £5. Yet the railway has all the additional costs of running on the mainline including mainline insurance, station access and track access fees as well as the additional journey costs fuel and maintenance.

There is limited public utility. There are not that many visitors onto the Isle of Purbeck and certainly not enough to warrant subsidising the heritage railway when a modern bus service could be provided from Wareham at a fraction of the cost and offer a much more usable service. But you don't like buses so you won't agree - but whether or not you like it, that is the right answer.

Morebus operate the Purbeck Breezer 40 service hourly between Poole and Swanage calling at Wareham, Norden and Corfe Castle amongst other points.

In terms of utility (frequency, journey duration, fares, days and times of operation, points served) it is superior to the SRC offering. As far as I am aware it receives only a very small amount of public funding for early morning and late evening services plus Sundays in the winter.

SRC does not appeal to very many passengers wishing to use it purely for the purposes of transport. It does however strongly appeal in terms of a heritage / tourist experience.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

As well as the journey I mentioned above, I've used the Morebus 40 service on a few other occasions, and I've found it very good.

 

[Dougal2345]

This "customer behaviour" highlights one of the financial issues with operating to / from Wareham. The "customer" will visit Swanage whether there is the rail link to / from Wareham or not.

I think that's a dubious assumption.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I live in the New Forest and enjoy Saturday train trips to Poole, Dorchester, Weymouth and so on. If any of those places had a preserved railway, I'd probably visit on several (or many) occasions each year.

But the faff of getting to Swanage (actually closer to me than Dorchester or Weymouth) - working out connecting bus times, paying the swingeing bus fares, hanging around waiting for connections (especially when the buses are delayed) and then enduring a rattly noisy bus journey means I really can't be a***d on the whole - I normally head there a maximum of once a year...

 

[30907]

But the faff of getting to Swanage (actually closer to me than Dorchester or Weymouth) - working out connecting bus times, paying the swingeing bus fares,

What a shame there isn't a Wareham Plusbus, or a through fare....

 

[Titfield]

What a shame there isn't a Wareham Plusbus, or a through fare....

Probably because rail companies and bus companies wont work together unless they are paid (or compelled ) to do so by the Government (ie the taxpayer).

 

[A0wen]

Probably because rail companies and bus companies wont work together unless they are paid (or compelled ) to do so by the Government (ie the taxpayer).

Except that's not quite true is it ? Otherwise PlusBus wouldn't exist at all.

The point with PlusBus is it recognises in *some* areas the arrival at the railway station isn't the last leg of the journey. Clearly neither SWR (nor its predecessors) and MoreBus (or its predecessors) think there is sufficient demand for such an offering at Wareham towards Swanage. Plus Bus does operate in Poole and Bournemouth so clearly there is demand for it there.

What a shame there isn't a Wareham Plusbus, or a through fare....

Though a through fare if issued on the bus would be the Swanage Railway fare plus the bus fare - that's not going to be cheap and it also means an amount of cross charge which More Bus would need to pass to Swanage Railway. I expect both the railway and the bus company have looked at it and discounted it as "not worth doing".

 

[yorksrob]

So in spite of all the flannel spouted on here, bus transport doesn't provide an adequate end to end journey product for visitors between the railway network and Swanage.

 

[Titfield]

Except that's not quite true is it ? Otherwise PlusBus wouldn't exist at all.

The point with PlusBus is it recognises in *some* areas the arrival at the railway station isn't the last leg of the journey. Clearly neither SWR (nor its predecessors) and MoreBus (or its predecessors) think there is sufficient demand for such an offering at Wareham towards Swanage. Plus Bus does operate in Poole and Bournemouth so clearly there is demand for it there.



Though a through fare if issued on the bus would be the Swanage Railway fare plus the bus fare - that's not going to be cheap and it also means an amount of cross charge which More Bus would need to pass to Swanage Railway. I expect both the railway and the bus company have looked at it and discounted it as "not worth doing".

I agree it is not quite true but surely PlusBus should be universally available not just in selected areas?

More has to be done to entice / appeal /persuade car users out of their cars and onto public transport. Having multi modal fare systems is one way of improving the appeal of public transport by removing one of its drawbacks - having to pay for each mode of transport separately.

The real problem is that heritage rail fares - which are premium priced for the experience - are simply far too high for someone wishing to travel from a to b and do not place a value / not willing to pay the fare for a heritage rail experience.

 

[A0wen]

I agree it is not quite true but surely PlusBus should be universally available not just in selected areas?

More has to be done to entice / appeal /persuade car users out of their cars and onto public transport. Having multi modal fare systems is one way of improving the appeal of public transport by removing one of its drawbacks - having to pay for each mode of transport separately.

But there is a cost to providing different fare options - and Wareham isn't a destination people are usually "travelling on" from.

More has to be done to entice / appeal /persuade car users out of their cars and onto public transport. Having multi modal fare systems is one way of improving the appeal of public transport by removing one of its drawbacks - having to pay for each mode of transport separately.

And in the areas where this is most needed i.e into major towns and cities it exists. Sorry to burst your dream, but you are not going to achieve a sudden migration from car to public transport. The private car has a 70+% market share - even shifting 1 % of that will take years. You need to be realistic about what is achievable and what it is sensible to target.

The real problem is that heritage rail fares - which are premium priced for the experience - are simply far too high for someone wishing to travel from a to b and do not place a value / not willing to pay the fare for a heritage rail experience.

The number of heritage railways with financial challenges suggests you are wrong - and if anything they are barely covering their costs despite the fact they don't have the biggest cost the national network does, well paid employees. And heritage railways are designed to be just that - a heritage attraction. If you want a modern public transport service where they are, then run a bus - it will be cleaner, more useful to the communities along the line, more reliable and cheaper to run as well. If you look at the Swanage railway as a case in point - Swanage station is near the coast so other parts of the town are a mile away from there. Harmans Cross is 1/4 mile from the main road at the bottom of a hill - away from most of the housing, Corfe Castle station is at the north end of the village - most of the village is more than 1/3 of a mile away from the station. And what about the people who live at places like Langton Matravers which the railway never served, yet a bus can easily serve when running between Swanage and Wareham ?

 

[D6130]

Has the direct Bournemouth-Swanage bus service via the Sandbanks ferry started running again?

 

[A0wen]

Has the direct Bournemouth-Swanage bus service via the Sandbanks ferry started running again?

Looks like it https://www.morebus.co.uk/services/WDBC/50

 

[Titfield]

But there is a cost to providing different fare options - and Wareham isn't a destination people are usually "travelling on" from.



And in the areas where this is most needed i.e into major towns and cities it exists. Sorry to burst your dream, but you are not going to achieve a sudden migration from car to public transport. The private car has a 70+% market share - even shifting 1 % of that will take years. You need to be realistic about what is achievable and what it is sensible to target.



The number of heritage railways with financial challenges suggests you are wrong - and if anything they are barely covering their costs despite the fact they don't have the biggest cost the national network does, well paid employees. And heritage railways are designed to be just that - a heritage attraction. If you want a modern public transport service where they are, then run a bus - it will be cleaner, more useful to the communities along the line, more reliable and cheaper to run as well. If you look at the Swanage railway as a case in point - Swanage station is near the coast so other parts of the town are a mile away from there. Harmans Cross is 1/4 mile from the main road at the bottom of a hill - away from most of the housing, Corfe Castle station is at the north end of the village - most of the village is more than 1/3 of a mile away from the station. And what about the people who live at places like Langton Matravers which the railway never served, yet a bus can easily serve when running between Swanage and Wareham ?

Yes there is a cost to providing fare options such as plusbus but it should still be universally available to encourage use.

I havent for one moment suggested there will be a sudden migration from car to public transport but each journey begins with a single step. Hence the BSIPs to try and encourage modal shift.

I do not think I am wrong in suggesting that high heritage rail fares discourage use by potential passengers seeking transport as opposed to a heritage rail experience. My point is that SRC should stick to operating a heritage rail service rather than trying to operate a service which is more akin to public transport. The Wareham service could potentially cost SRC (or DC if they fund it) a great deal of money. Money which if public could be better off invested in Purbeck Breezer - the modern public transport bus service you advocate. If the money is SRC then it could be better spent on the water tower, furzebrook site to name but two projects.

 

[D6130]

Looks like it https://www.morebus.co.uk/services/WDBC/50

In that case it's probably a more economic and less time-consuming public transport option for visitors to the SR who are holidaying in the Bournemouth/Poole conurbation.

 

[A0wen]

Yes there is a cost to providing fare options such as plusbus but it should still be universally available to encourage use.

I havent for one moment suggested there will be a sudden migration from car to public transport but each journey begins with a single step. Hence the BSIPs to try and encourage modal shift.

But "universally available" in what sense ? What would be the "zone" of a Plus Bus from Wareham - to Dorchester ?

And I'm not sure the aim of the BSIPs is to increase "modal shift in a meaningful way - yes, some councils are pitching for money on that basis, whether they get that money remains to be seen.

I do not think I am wrong in suggesting that high heritage rail fares discourage use by potential passengers seeking transport as opposed to a heritage rail experience. My point is that SRC should stick to operating a heritage rail service rather than trying to operate a service which is more akin to public transport. The Wareham service could potentially cost SRC (or DC if they fund it) a great deal of money. Money which if public could be better off invested in Purbeck Breezer - the modern public transport bus service you advocate. If the money is SRC then it could be better spent on the water tower, furzebrook site to name but two projects.

Let's be sensible about this - Swanage has a population of 9,500, Corfe Castle has 1,300.

The Swanage railway attracts ~200k - ~250k visitors a year - that's money being spent in the local economy there. And that's on a railway which runs about 7 months a year.

Lymington Town station (ignoring Lymington Pier because most people use that for the IoW ferry) gets a similar number of users over the whole year on a town of about 15,000.

One of those is contributing to the tourist income the other is enabling people to head elsewhere and spend their money elsewhere.

I don't for a minute think Wareham is worth it for the Swanage Railway except as a "special occasions" thing - it's simply not going to be viable in the near future.

In that case it's probably a more economic and less time-consuming public transport option for visitors to the SR who are holidaying in the Bournemouth/Poole conurbation.

Absolutely - or get the bus from Wareham. But there are some on these forums who think because there are rails, they shouldn't have to use a bus.

 

[Glenn1969]

But "universally available" in what sense ? What would be the "zone" of a Plus Bus from Wareham - to Dorchester ?

And I'm not sure the aim of the BSIPs is to increase "modal shift in a meaningful way - yes, some councils are pitching for money on that basis, whether they get that money remains to be seen.



Let's be sensible about this - Swanage has a population of 9,500, Corfe Castle has 1,300.

The Swanage railway attracts ~200k - ~250k visitors a year - that's money being spent in the local economy there. And that's on a railway which runs about 7 months a year.

Lymington Town station (ignoring Lymington Pier because most people use that for the IoW ferry) gets a similar number of users over the whole year on a town of about 15,000.

One of those is contributing to the tourist income the other is enabling people to head elsewhere and spend their money elsewhere.

I don't for a minute think Wareham is worth it for the Swanage Railway except as a "special occasions" thing - it's simply not going to be viable in the near future.



Absolutely - or get the bus from Wareham. But there are some on these forums who think because there are rails, they shouldn't have to use a bus.

There are also plenty who would never use a bus under any circumstances

 

[A0wen]

There are also plenty who would never use a bus under any circumstances

And I'm afraid those people need to get over themselves.

If you want people to use public transport, you have to accept that sometimes it means using a bus - especially when the main priority is providing a useful transport link to an area - and I suspect that many of the older population of Swanage would much rather have a modern, reliable bus that drops them off a few yards from their front door and runs to places like the shops or hospital that they need to go rather than a train ride on a 50 year old DMU which deposits them miles from where they need to go.

 

[Dougal2345]

But "universally available" in what sense ? What would be the "zone" of a Plus Bus from Wareham - to Dorchester ?

Regarding PlusBus, it's certainly not unreasonable to imagine a 'Purbeck' PlusBus zone with Wareham as its railhead. Wareham to Swanage is about 10 miles, so about the same as, say, Bournemouth to Wimborne in the Bournemouth PlusBus zone. Useful to Swanage-based commuters heading to anywhere along the SWML, and for weekend leisure travellers heading the opposite way.

Given the adult return bus ticket Wareham->Swanage is a fat £8.00, a PlusBus that allowed a railcard discount would be very welcome...

The Swanage railway attracts ~200k - ~250k visitors a year - that's money being spent in the local economy there. And that's on a railway which runs about 7 months a year.
Lymington Town station (ignoring Lymington Pier because most people use that for the IoW ferry) gets a similar number of users over the whole year on a town of about 15,000.
One of those is contributing to the tourist income the other is enabling people to head elsewhere and spend their money elsewhere.

That's a bit of a leap isn't it? Maybe Lymington residents do all pile on the trains at weekends to spend their wonga at West Quay, but I would have thought that the line would be heavily used by Lymington residents commuting to work in Bournemouth or Southampton, thus bringing back money to spend in their community.

If you want people to use public transport, you have to accept that sometimes it means using a bus - especially when the main priority is providing a useful transport link to an area - and I suspect that many of the older population of Swanage would much rather have a modern, reliable bus that drops them off a few yards from their front door and runs to places like the shops or hospital that they need to go rather than a train ride on a 50 year old DMU which deposits them miles from where they need to go.

I think I recognise almost that exact paragraph (substituting EMU for DMU) from your posts in the Isle of Wight thread

But I suppose we're not in an ideal situation with the Swanage line. If it hadn't closed in the 1970s, perhaps now Swanage would have an hourly 6am-11pm type of service, maybe just to Wareham, or maybe on to Poole. Perhaps it would have got third rail at the same time Weymouth did, and line speeds would have been a healthy 60mph+ in a nice 450 Desiro.

That would have been great for commuters and leisure travellers, taking pressure off the roads.

On the other hand, Swanage wouldn't have one of its major tourist attractions, and the lovely sight of steam locos puffing by Corfe Castle into the centre of Swanage would never have happened.

[Re Bmth-Swanage Bus no 50] - In that case it's probably a more economic and less time-consuming public transport option for visitors to the SR who are holidaying in the Bournemouth/Poole conurbation.

Fine for holidaymakers, but as it winds its steady, bumpy way through Bournemouth, often getting more and more delayed by traffic jams, it's no use for commuters, even if it did run all year round.

 

[A0wen]

Given the adult return bus ticket Wareham->Swanage is a fat £8.00, a PlusBus that allowed a railcard discount would be very welcome...

Ah yes - I assume you have a railcard? "very welcome" for you, what about those of us who have to pay a higher tax bill to fund your gallivanting? Speaking personally, not welcome at all - you want to gallivant, you fund it.

For regular commuters that's not an option and I'd bet in NR hands the fare would be close to the £8 bus fare - for example an anytime return Felixstowe - Ipswich (similar distance to Swanage - Wareham) is £7.

 

[Dougal2345]

Ah yes - I assume you have a railcard? "very welcome" for you, what about those of us who have to pay a higher tax bill to fund your gallivanting? Speaking personally, not welcome at all - you want to gallivant, you fund it.

For regular commuters that's not an option and I'd bet in NR hands the fare would be close to the £8 bus fare - for example an anytime return Felixstowe - Ipswich (similar distance to Swanage - Wareham) is £7.

I have a Network Card (£30)

For comparison, a return rail journey Wareham-Dorchester is £8.50 (Anytime, no railcard). About 16 miles in 20 minutes in a 444/450.
A return bus journey Wareham-Swanage is £8.00. About 10 miles in 35 minutes, so about one third of the speed of the train journey - and in a bus (so about one third of the comfort).

So I do find that £8 ticket overpriced, as I imagine would anyone using the bus from Swanage to commute.

I do enjoy gallivanting

 

[Titfield]

I do enjoy gallivanting

As a tax payer impressed that the money spent on your education included an investment in an extensive vocabulary.

"Gallivanting" a most suitable description for an excellent adventure (as Bill and Ted would say).

 

[PTR 444]

Fine for holidaymakers, but as it winds its steady, bumpy way through Bournemouth, often getting more and more delayed by traffic jams, it's no use for commuters, even if it did run all year round.

Absolutely - or get the bus from Wareham. But there are some on these forums who think because there are rails, they shouldn't have to use a bus.

It’s interesting to note that both bus routes from Swanage are competitive with each other if one is travelling to points east of Bournemouth. Using a journey to Southampton Central tomorrow morning as an example, the 40 bus to Wareham and SWR beyond there is 5 minutes quicker than the 50 to Bournemouth, except during hours when XC is running as the shorter connection time shaves off 13 minutes compared to alternate hours when only SWR are running.

 

[VEP3417]

part or possibly most of the lymington line figures would be students going to brockenhurst id imagine

it was a heritage line at one point but is different as it has an actual platform for a direct link to other places

always seems to be a well used line though even through out the day rather than just in the morning and evening

 

[zwk500]

part or possibly most of the lymington line figures would be students going to brockenhurst id imagine

it was a heritage line at one point but is different as it has an actual platform for a direct link to other places

always seems to be a well used line though even through out the day rather than just in the morning and evening

It was never a heritage line, it just used old stock. That's completely different.

 

[VEP3417]

the term heritage line was banded about a lot even on posters and leaflets from swt, maybe not a full blown heritage line in that sense (as was still run my networkrail or who ever rather than an independent set of people like a proper heritage line) but there was even a heritage rail partnership scheme so it was "sort of one for a bit"

 

[zwk500]

the term heritage line was banded about a lot even on posters and leaflets from swt, maybe not a full blown heritage line in that sense (as was still run my networkrail or who ever rather than an independent set of people like a proper heritage line) but there was even a heritage rail partnership scheme so it was "sort of one for a bit"

It might have dressed up as one for a while, but the framework for operating was completely different and isn't able to help the Swanage to Wareham proposal.

 

[Titfield]

the term heritage line was banded about a lot even on posters and leaflets from swt, maybe not a full blown heritage line in that sense (as was still run my networkrail or who ever rather than an independent set of people like a proper heritage line) but there was even a heritage rail partnership scheme so it was "sort of one for a bit"

It is New Forest Community Rail Partnership.

 

[paul1609]

It’s interesting to note that both bus routes from Swanage are competitive with each other if one is travelling to points east of Bournemouth. Using a journey to Southampton Central tomorrow morning as an example, the 40 bus to Wareham and SWR beyond there is 5 minutes quicker than the 50 to Bournemouth, except during hours when XC is running as the shorter connection time shaves off 13 minutes compared to alternate hours when only SWR are running.

The Bournemouth 50 route also has through rail bus ticketing "Swanage Bus" is around an extra £6 with a railcard. Personally I'd go that way just for the chain ferry ride.

 

[Titfield]

The Bournemouth 50 route also has through rail bus ticketing "Swanage Bus" is around an extra £6 with a railcard. Personally I'd go that way just for the chain ferry ride.

It has been voted one of Britains most scenic bus journeys. It runs with partially open top double deckers for most of the year reverting only to closed open tops only when very inclement weather is forecast.

 

[Dougal2345]

The Bournemouth 50 route also has through rail bus ticketing "Swanage Bus" is around an extra £6 with a railcard. Personally I'd go that way just for the chain ferry ride.

Although it doesn't seem that Network Cards are included (from what I can make out from brfares.com) so the full fare is £7.90 (still better than £9.50 on the bus).

It has been voted one of Britains most scenic bus journeys. It runs with partially open top double deckers for most of the year reverting only to closed open tops only when very inclement weather is forecast.

It's a lovely journey (although has been observed, often packed and not letting people board in the summer, so not something you can rely on) - if you want a leisurely ride with lots of lovely scenery. However for getting from main line railway to Swanage quickly, it's not good at all at 67 minutes if you're lucky (and you frequently won't be lucky).

If things were designed with the passenger in mind, the integrated approach would be to run the direct Swanage bus from Poole station instead - this would bring the journey time down to 57 minutes.

 

[PTR 444]

If things were designed with the passenger in mind, the integrated approach would be to run the direct Swanage bus from Poole station instead - this would bring the journey time down to 57 minutes.

Diverting the no.50 bus to Poole is a ludicrous idea IMO. The main demand is for Swanage to Bournemouth, and Poole is already covered by route 40. Yes it may be longer but there is at least the opportunity to change onto the train at Wareham.