SWT planning an EMU order

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317666

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http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...h-west-trains-plans-suburban-train-order.html

Franchised passenger operator South West Trains has invited expressions of interest in separate negotiated contracts to finance and supply between 135 and 250 electric multiple-unit cars to increase capacity on suburban services into London Waterloo.

The operator is seeking EMUs of three to five 20 m cars, suitable for operating in formations of up to 10 cars.

The Department for Transport is expected to approve procurement of the new trains imminently, with entry into service planned to take place between July 2016 and July 2017.

The estimated value of the rolling stock order is between £135m and £425m plus VAT, including two years of maintenance support.

Looks like something else to add to their fleet as well as the 458/5s and 456s then!
 
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1e10

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Forgive me if this is a silly question!

Does this mean SWT will have ownership of the units rather than a ROSCO owning them and leasing them out to SWT?
 

swt_passenger

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The more exciting bit though is... will it lead to any cascades???

I'd expect it's highly unlikely, unless it helps them lose a few DMUs - but then they'd be able to use them on the Salisbury - Exeter line anyway pending any further electrification.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does this mean SWT will have ownership of the units rather than a ROSCO owning them and leasing them out to SWT?

Media announcements almost always refer to the TOC 'ordering' the units, but that's usually just shorthand for eventual leasing from a normal Rosco. The people who respond to the ITT (or ITN in this case) are usually Roscos, not actual manufacturers...
 
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Muzer

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I'd expect it's highly unlikely, unless it helps them lose a few DMUs - but then they'd be able to use them on the Salisbury - Exeter line anyway pending any further electrification.

I believe most of their remaining DMUs on entirely electrified routes were planning on being used to lengthen West of England trains (presumably just between Waterloo and Salisbury) when the 456s come (correct me if I'm wrong).
 

swt_passenger

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SWT run DMUs on entirely electrified routes? Where does this happen, other than the Lymington branch during the week?

Portsmouth/Basingstoke/Waterloo
Basingstoke/Southampton
Winchester/Totton
Portsmouth/Fareham

to list a few...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe most of their remaining DMUs on entirely electrified routes were planning on being used to lengthen West of England trains (presumably just between Waterloo and Salisbury) when the 456s come (correct me if I'm wrong).

Some are, by comparing what currently happens with the Salisbury stengthening, eg that 6.159 that does the early Portsmouth - Basingstoke - Waterloo almost certainly ceases; but there's no evidence in the SWT press statements that ALL the current 'third rail area' DMU's will be displaced onto the Salisbury line.

This is what they announced, as you can see some strengthening is from Yeovil:

0515 from Yeovil Junction (6 car to 9 car)
0543 from Salisbury (6 car to 9 car)
0642 from Basingstoke (6 car to 8 car) [My note: This is the one thought to be 6.159 becoming 8.450 releasing 159s]
1620 to Exeter (6 car to 8 car)
1720 to Exeter (6 car to 9 car)
1750 to Exeter (6 car to 8 car)
 
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joeykins82

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I've been on a couple of SWT peak services between Portsmouth & Southampton that were operated by a 158. At least I'm fairly confident it was a Portsmouth-Southampton service; I'd just come out of the Queen Alexandra hospital to get back to Fareham and was a bit spaced.
 

swt_passenger

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I've been on a couple of SWT peak services between Portsmouth & Southampton that were operated by a 158. At least I'm fairly confident it was a Portsmouth-Southampton service; I'd just come out of the Queen Alexandra hospital to get back to Fareham and was a bit spaced.

There's just the one Southampton to Portsmouth Hbr at 0751 and return trip at 0933 currently using a 3.159, the rest of the weekday and all weekend it's all 450s.
 

TheGrew

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Interesting to see another order for units on top of the 458/5 conversions. My guess would be that after tendering SWT would go for either more 450s or some sort of desiro city derivative (with corridor connections). I can't see them wanting to order anything other than Siemens in order to standardise maintenance (with heavy maintenance being done at Northam). What do other people think?
 

edwin_m

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According to various comments in recent issues of Modern Railways, SWT needs units to cover growth in passenger numbers and the reason the 455s are being fitted with AC drives* is to reduce their maintenance requirement so that Wimbledon can look after more units as well. Since the 455 re-tractioning doesn't appear to have been worthwhile without this benefit, it was logical to expect them to order some new units as soon as they signed up to the re-tractioning.

*to avoid repeating a discussion we've had several times already, that's AC as in AC traction motors but still powered from a DC third rail.
 

WatcherZero

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Heard rumblings of this order a month ago but the size of it has surprised me.
 

transmanche

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I'm guessing that as it's an ITN (rather than an ITT) it'll be fairly simple to select Siemens and order some 450s to follow-on from their work on the LM/TP 350s.

Now here's an idle thought - are they planning to extend the existing 450s from 4-car to 5-car units? The lower number quoted (135) is close to the number of existing 450 units (127), with the higher number quoted allowing for another 20-odd 5-car units.

Maybe they'll look to get some more 444s as part of the '25', allowing a cascade of 450s from the longer-distance routes?
 

wibble

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The more exciting bit though is... will it lead to any cascades???

Probably not.
- 455s will be strengthened by 456s (10 car 'metro' services)
- 458s will be strengthened by 460s (10 car suburban services)

Article states that they're 20m cars on suburban routes to Waterloo so it looks like they'll be used to release 450s (e.g. those currently on Windsor & Eton Riverside route) to strengthen routes elsewhere and to replace 158/159 running on electried sections of the network (e.g. 0914 Alton arriving Waterloo 1025 runs as a 4 car).
 

swt_passenger

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How does turning all the 450s into 5 car units possibly help? How do you run trains that fit the 12 car platforms common to the mainline routes?

They won't ever replace 12.450s with 'more 444s' unless DfT tell them to reduce the number of seats available on the relevant routes. At 120 odd seats lost per train the likelihood of that ever happening is near zero:

We are aware of the issues discussed during the debate and these were all considered with the introduction of the Class 450 trains several years ago. Under the terms of the South West Trains franchise, we are required by the Department for Transport to use the Class 450s for the life of our franchise and we have taken a decision to use them on the routes and services where they have the greatest benefit. This was reflected in our bid for the South West Trains franchise.
We must balance the interests of different communities along the Portsmouth to London line and on our network as a whole, and we cannot focus exclusively on one part of the line. We also believe it is important to be open and honest about what is possible moving forward. That is why we have to be clear that, unless the Government changes our franchise agreement, we will not be making any changes to the mix of trains and seating used on the Portsmouth to London route.
http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/class450QuestionsAnswers.aspx

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Probably not.
- 455s will be strengthened by 456s (10 car 'metro' services)
- 458s will be strengthened by 460s (10 car suburban services)

Article states that they're 20m cars on suburban routes to Waterloo so it looks like they'll be used to release 450s (e.g. those currently on Windsor & Eton Riverside route) to strengthen routes elsewhere and to replace 158/159 running on electried sections of the network (e.g. 0914 Alton arriving Waterloo 1025 runs as a 4 car).

Everything you mention is already happening though. The 458/460 merger is already releasing the 450s from the Windsor route, that's why another thread is currently discussing the 450/5s having their first class reinstated. Some 455 operated routes will be strengthened by 456s, but most won't.

This new order is about strengthening just about everywhere EXCEPT the Windsor side routes, and presumably the remaining short services running on the main lines.
 
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Chris125

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I'm guessing that as it's an ITN (rather than an ITT) it'll be fairly simple to select Siemens and order some 450s to follow-on from their work on the LM/TP 350s.

From what's been said the LM/TP 350's will be the last to be built to that design, future orders will be based around the Desiro City platform - indeed there's an artist's impression of one in SWT livery knocking around.

Chris
 

The Ham

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From what's been said the LM/TP 350's will be the last to be built to that design, future orders will be based around the Desiro City platform - indeed there's an artist's impression of one in SWT livery knocking around.

Chris

Then comes the question of can there be enough Desiro Cities built what with the Thames link order in the time-frame?
 

Class377/5

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SWT Engineering Director Christian Roth was spoken to last month in Rail

He suggested that was well as a Siemens offering, class 377 or 378s from Bombardier or another manufacturer's train would be considered

The the new trains would be fitted with high-density interiors, and that new trains would be needed on the metro lines they are not designed as a replacement for existing fleets

He said any new fleet would be maintained by SWT, rather than a maintenance contract

Slightly off topic was his comments over Southern's 455 fleet

Roth suggested that class 455s cascaded from Southern could be an option, but then appeared to rule them out. You would need to spend a lot to make them like ours.

And the Southern '445s' could only move after Thameslink is running

Desiro City for SWT


Desiro City for SWT by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr
 
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starrymarkb

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I don't think so, given that SWT run and fill 8 car trains even off peak I think that they'll be fixed formation 10 car sets (post lengthening).

I also suspect Bombardier may go in with an aggressive bid in an attempt to launch the Aventra (ie Electrostar 2)
 

Kettledrum

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I'm guessing that as it's an ITN (rather than an ITT) it'll be fairly simple to select Siemens and order some 450s to follow-on from their work on the LM/TP 350s.

Now here's an idle thought - are they planning to extend the existing 450s from 4-car to 5-car units? The lower number quoted (135) is close to the number of existing 450 units (127), with the higher number quoted allowing for another 20-odd 5-car units.

Maybe they'll look to get some more 444s as part of the '25', allowing a cascade of 450s from the longer-distance routes?

Do Siemens have the manufacturing capacity for such an order at the moment. Haven't they just withdrawn from tendering for crossrail rolling stock because they didn't have the capacity to deliver?
 

transmanche

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Do Siemens have the manufacturing capacity for such an order at the moment. Haven't they just withdrawn from tendering for crossrail rolling stock because they didn't have the capacity to deliver?
Yeah, but the Crossrail order is for 600 vehicles and includes maintenance facilities etc.
 

swt_passenger

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Do Siemens have the manufacturing capacity for such an order at the moment. Haven't they just withdrawn from tendering for crossrail rolling stock because they didn't have the capacity to deliver?

Siemens' earlier XR decision may have been made with a view to this happening anyway. Just because it's only just entered the public domain doesn't mean Siemens haven't been aware all along, and might have been allowing for it anyway?

But at the end of the day there's more than one way of fulfilling the requirement - I mean how many people expected the 458/460 merger and 456 cascade to be the solution last time SWT put out a tender for 120 - 180 vehicles? According to the ITT they were supposed to be compatible with existing stock, and given the wording used I expected either extra Desiro vehicles (or whole units), and I don't think I was alone in that:

120 to 180 vehicles (20 metre) to operate in 5 car formation. (or approx. 100 m length equivalent). Estimated value excluding VAT: 180 000 000 GBP

Given the price range I guess most people expected that order to be new stock, and it turned out completely different...
 

edwin_m

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Might indeed be one reason why Siemens pulled out of Crossrail - as I posted above this one has been on the cards for several months. If the timescales match it could be a follow-on build of Thameslink units with minor modifications to be compatible with the existing fleet, and other things being equal SWT would doubtless prefer not to have yet another set of units that are different from everything else.

On the other had there could be a deal to be struck around further use of the Bombardier units recently ordered as a stopgap for Thameslink.
 

Goldfish62

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No need to snap. Like I said it was an idle thought, based on seeing something on here about SWT's ambition to become a 10-car railway...

The Reading line is likely to become 10 car within the next 5-6 years. Unless it's going to have a downgrade of rolling stock it will need 10 car trains with toilets, 2+3 seating and 1st class.

Stick 1st class back in the 458/5s and use all those spare Compin seats they'll have lying around to convert back to 2+3. Put the new inner suburban stock on the Hounslow loop/Windsor/Weybridge.

That's my suggestion for what it's worth...
 

Monty

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The current word on the street is that the 458/5s will now retain their first class accommodation. Which makes sense as they will be used on services to Alton from time to time.
 
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Class377/5

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Might indeed be one reason why Siemens pulled out of Crossrail - as I posted above this one has been on the cards for several months. If the timescales match it could be a follow-on build of Thameslink units with minor modifications to be compatible with the existing fleet, and other things being equal SWT would doubtless prefer not to have yet another set of units that are different from everything else.

On the other had there could be a deal to be struck around further use of the Bombardier units recently ordered as a stopgap for Thameslink.

SWT won't want those units. They want these trains now not in 2018. Plus a sub fleet of four cars won't work when your aiming for 10 car trains.

Do Siemens have the manufacturing capacity for such an order at the moment. Haven't they just withdrawn from tendering for crossrail rolling stock because they didn't have the capacity to deliver?

Crossrail is 600 carriages. This is only 135 or so. It might be doable.

If they want a 'metro' high capacity layout then the Desiro City design for Thameslink would be fine. Just different livery and seat covers.

I am presuming that the front end would be styled more like the Class 380's and be made such that they are compatible with the 450's?

There was some images released by Siemens showing the train layouts that showed a layout of a gangwayed cab. So no problems making them ganagwayed.

I don't think so, given that SWT run and fill 8 car trains even off peak I think that they'll be fixed formation 10 car sets (post lengthening).

I also suspect Bombardier may go in with an aggressive bid in an attempt to launch the Aventra (ie Electrostar 2)

Bombardier's whole thing about getting more Electrostars for Southern is making sure they are compatible with Southern's existing units. Unless Bombardier offers some seriously cheap EMUs, then why go with a stock that's incompatible with everything else your running around?
 
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